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DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to HiVolt

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

said by HiVolt:

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

Please... Spare us your cut & paste response every time...

Just as predictable as the usual racism.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by urbanriot:

And on top of that, doesn't scrutinize regular domestic looking white folks who could easily be carrying knives.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The last time I went into the RSK Welch Courthouse I had to place everything in my pockets into a basket that was looked over by an NRPS officer sitting at a table. I was asked if I had any guns, knives or anything else that could be considered a weapon. I then had to walk through a metal detector, and then to top things off I had to hold my shirt up so they could see my my belt line and was made to stand there with my arms in the air while a different NRPS officer waved a metal detecting wand over me just to make sure I had nothing. I'm as white as they come, so your hyperbole is outright false.

Remember - this discussion has nothing to do with carrying a kirpan in public. It's about being allowed to bring them into a courthouse when security is otherwise so strict that during busy times of day a lawyer needs to leave a half an hour early for court just to get through it in time.

I have walked into the courthouse in Owen Sound and not been searched, but have been in London. Go figure.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to DKS
said by DKS:

said by HiVolt:

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

Please... Spare us your cut & paste response every time...

Just as predictable as the usual racism.

What racism? I'll quote Gone See Profile which is exactly the issue we're discussing.

said by Gone:

Remember - this discussion has nothing to do with carrying a kirpan in public. It's about being allowed to bring them into a courthouse when security is otherwise so strict that during busy times of day a lawyer needs to leave a half an hour early for court just to get through it in time.


--
GO BLUE JAYS!



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to DKS
said by DKS:

I have walked into the courthouse in Owen Sound and not been searched, but have been in London. Go figure.

Do they have a security perimeter set up at the court in Owen Sound?

I swear, the way they have it set up in St. Catharines is worse than an American airport. I'd hate to see what it's like when they call jury duty.


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
Premium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

What racism? I'll quote Gone See Profile which is exactly the issue we're discussing.

Objecting to expression of basic religious freedom is the point. The rest is peripheral. If the court system objects and sees the kirpan as a problem, they will do so. Otherwise, it's a non-issue.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

What racism?

Questioning why someone should be able to bring a blade - even a religious ceremonial one - into a secure area is not racist at all.

The problem, which has already been demonstrated in this thread, is that people instantly associate any discussion like this as extending beyond the secure area we're specifically speaking about, and that we want to infringe on people's rights everywhere. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As I said earlier - I could care less if someone of Sikh faith carries a kirpan with them wherever they go, even to a school. The issue is that a courthouse is a secure area where items like this are otherwise prohibited, and as a result they should not be able to bring them in regardless of their faith. I would like to think that whatever God they believe in would understand the circumstances.

I am also not inferring that everyone with a kirpan is going to be violent and use it, either. Think about it - has anyone considered that someone else could grab it and use it as a weapon?


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to DKS
said by DKS:

Objecting to expression of basic religious freedom is the point.

So where do you draw the line between the public good and religious freedom on matters of law?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. The last time I went into the RSK Welch Courthouse I had to place everything in my pockets into a basket that was looked over by an NRPS officer sitting at a table.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit indeed. LOL because you've been to one court in your life and searched at this one court, you believe they all search?


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
I've been to court here several times. I was search in detail much like Gone described. So was everyone else regardless of skin colour.

And one white guy got tossed out on the street because he would refuse to unclip his nail clipper from his car keys.

But now a Kirpan is permitted, while a nail clipper isn't. Where's the flippin logic.
--
GO BLUE JAYS!



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot
Irrelevant. To remind you again, we're talking about secure areas with security perimeters under the Public Works Protection Act, not other locations. I could give two shits about the courts out there like the one in Fort Erie that doesn't search. That's not what we're talking about.

Now back to the topic...

Ask yourself this - why should a Sikh be able to carry a kirpan into a secure area (anywhere else is irrelevant, and I could give two shits about) when someone can't even bring in a knife and fork in with their lunch?

Simple question. I await your answer.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL

1 recommendation

said by Gone:

Ask yourself this - why should a Sikh be able to carry a kirpan into a secure area (anywhere else is irrelevant, and I could give two shits about) when someone can't even bring in a knife and fork in with their lunch?

Simple question. I await your answer.

Because somehow one person's religious beliefs now trump the safety & security of a courtroom full of people.

The logic escapes me.
--
GO BLUE JAYS!



scream 9

@videotron.ca
reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

There's a lot of blustery exaggerations in this thread.

Lots.
It's a fear. Why else would it be like this? Oh? Tolerance?

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13

1 recommendation

said by scream 9 :

said by urbanriot:

There's a lot of blustery exaggerations in this thread.

Lots.
It's a fear. Why else would it be like this? Oh? Tolerance?

No, it's a plea for logic.

Ironically, logic [and] tolerance are both in short supply in one part of Canada. Je me souviens.


dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
Premium
join:2002-02-21
London, ON
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

I've been to court here several times. I was search in detail much like Gone described. So was everyone else regardless of skin colour.

And one white guy got tossed out on the street because he would refuse to unclip his nail clipper from his car keys.

But now a Kirpan is permitted, while a nail clipper isn't. Where's the flippin logic.

when i went to court (jury duty), we were searched every time we entered back into the building...metal detectors, cops, pat downs...all of us...every time.
--
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

- George Orwell


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
reply to DKS
said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

So Sikhism is now a race? Silly me, I thought it was a religion. They aren't racially any different from anyone else from the Punjab region.

Is it a question of religious tolerance? Sure. But most intelligent people will agree that even tolerance has limits.

If there were set reasonable limits to what a Kirpan could be to be admissible to court, I think that would be reasonable. For instance, if there were rules on a Kirpan (length, sharpness, etc) that were different than those for a general "walking around Kirpan" this would be acceptable to me. Just as there are different limits on the acceptability of knife parameters for what people can generally walk around with and enter a courtroom with.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Thane_Bitter
Inquire within
Premium
join:2005-01-20
Reviews:
·Bell Sympatico
reply to LazMan
said by LazMan:

What's next? Ceremonial guns?

Nope:

“The idea of having real soldiers with their accoutrements, and vehicles, coupled with you the historians with your impressive displays are no longer possible in the present day schools.”

The event was cancelled because some students who hail from countries touched by war raised concerns about it last year, said Lauren Rocque, a spokeswoman for the Ottawa Catholic School Board.
»news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/03 ··· -school/



loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to elwoodblues
I dont like Kirpans allowed in courts.

But don't blame Sikh then blame people who approved this.

"The Toronto Police Service, Toronto Police Services Board and the Ministry of the Attorney General"

And as DKS said racism is very much alive. At least on DSLR.

And next time you vote in Brampton or in BC or where Sikh majority exists, vote carefully.

Don't vote for Sikh Candidate or NDP or Conservative or Liberal who supports separate Sikh nation. Because if you do then you support Sikh terrorism.

And if you think you are free to vote for anybody you choose(support the Candidate who uses/supports terrorism against India for separate Sikh Nation) then Sikh are using same Freedom and Constitutional rights to express or wear Kirpans. You cant have it both ways. One right for Majority and none for minority.

FYI. Sikh are about 2% population India and PM is Sikh.

Again, I don't like Kirpans allowed in courts.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
said by loosedobbs:

I dont like Kirpans allowed in courts.

But don't blame Sikh then blame people who approved this.

I do blame them. Because they've got no regard for the laws, they just care about their interests.
--
GO BLUE JAYS!


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to Ian
said by Ian:

said by DKS:

Racism is alive and well and living in Canada.

So Sikhism is now a race? Silly me, I thought it was a religion. They aren't racially any different from anyone else from the Punjab region.

Is it a question of religious tolerance? Sure. But most intelligent people will agree that even tolerance has limits.

If there were set reasonable limits to what a Kirpan could be to be admissible to court, I think that would be reasonable. For instance, if there were rules on a Kirpan (length, sharpness, etc) that were different than those for a general "walking around Kirpan" this would be acceptable to me. Just as there are different limits on the acceptability of knife parameters for what people can generally walk around with and enter a courtroom with.

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

Anyhow, the difference between discrimination and racism is splitting hairs in my opinion.

To be honest, I'm not that shocked about this decision. If an incident does occur, they'll probably ban them. To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

I'm just playing devils advocate here.
--
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it."-Malcolm X



Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Warez_Zealot:

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

There are even more Hindus and Muslims from India, so what's your point?

PX Eliezer70
Premium
join:2008-08-09
Hutt River
kudos:13
reply to Warez_Zealot
said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic ··· -daggers


Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-20
Ontario
kudos:1
reply to elwoodblues
we take a momentary timeout from this latest episode of "I'm right and you're wrong - You racist capitalist redneck bleeding heart socialist commie pinko Godwinian facist." to bring you a shout out to our new sponsors HopSingh Enterprises - makers of the Securkirpan lockable sheath.

said by advert :

Hello Dhavindral Singh here - We have very good sale today. . . Come on down - you won't get a barter deal than us! . . .We have a door crasher special on your favorite and mine. . .Our Securkirpan locakable sheaths available in indiscreet yellow or emerald green. . .that is right folks You go now. . .very good deals are only a Hop Singh and a jump away.

we now return you to "I'm right and you're wrong - You racist capitalist redneck bleeding heart socialist commie pinko Godwin spewing bigoil pandering environmental wingnut facist."

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

1 edit
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by Warez_Zealot:

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

There are even more Hindus and Muslims from India, so what's your point?

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic ··· -daggers

Haha, yeah I googled after I posted that. But to be fair that was almost over 2 years ago, and I don't really think it was big in the news. (At least I don't remember it being in the headlines)

So at least the Kirpan attacks are very few and far between.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by Warez_Zealot:

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

... uh... how?


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to Warez_Zealot
It seems folks are alleging that people who religiously wear knives are more than likely to stab people than those who conceal their knives.

I wonder what the statistics of knife attacks in Canada are, that include Sikh's vs. knife attacks in Canada committed by non-Sikh's. I'm also genuinely curious of knife attack rates or murders in India.

If India has 19,215,730 Sikh's and Canada has only 600,000, India must certainly be a dangerous country with a continual threat of knifing.


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
It doesn't matter in the general public if someone wears their Kirpan.

It just shouldn't be allowed in secure locations like a courtroom.

I asked this question above, but seems nobody responded. What happens should a Sikh get arrested? Will they let him keep his Kirpan? I seriously doubt it. Same in prisons. I doubt you have Sikhs walking around with weapons.
--
GO BLUE JAYS!


Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to Gone
I suppose you can be racist against people from countries such as India, and vicinity, middle east, etc.... and use this excuse to be racist and discriminatory.


urbanriot
Premium
join:2004-10-18
Canada
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cogeco Cable
reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

It just shouldn't be allowed in secure locations like a courtroom.

Well, unfortunately for you, you're not a supreme court justice so you don't decide what is or is not secure. Courtroom security is a jurisdictional matter at this time, and the federal court can override such decisions.

Why is a courtroom any more 'dangerous' a location for non-knife wearing people than a shopping mall?

I can understand a debate concerning airplanes or the debate concerning schools, but a courtroom? Which often has people employed in the role of upholding the law?! It's all so irrational.

said by HiVolt:

What happens should a Sikh get arrested?

That's an entirely different topic but an interesting one. Does federal or provincial law override religious requirements? Which laws can be overridden? Which laws can't?

Based on some of the comments I read here, I'm not entirely sure we can reasonably create such laws.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
kudos:3
said by urbanriot:

Why is a courtroom any more 'dangerous' a location for non-knife wearing people than a shopping mall?

I can understand a debate concerning airplanes or the debate concerning schools, but a courtroom? Which often has people employed in the role of upholding the law?! It's all so irrational.

You're kidding right? Witnesses, often saying testimony that will anger/inflame defendants or their families. etc...

If that's the case, let's save money and get rid of cops in there too and just use minimum wage stooges for security like the malls.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to Warez_Zealot
said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic ··· -daggers

So almost 100 years Sikhs are in Canada and just one incident with help of Google. May find one more.

This was serious issue as its religious symbol was used in Domestic dispute. It was never heard of and never to be used for that.

said by Warez_Zealot:

said by Gone:

said by Warez_Zealot:

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

There are even more Hindus and Muslims from India, so what's your point?

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic ··· -daggers

Haha, yeah I googled after I posted that. But to be fair that was almost over 2 years ago, and I don't really think it was big in the news. (At least I don't remember it being in the headlines)

So at least the Kirpan attacks are very few and far between.

Its Rare. Very rare.

Almost never heard of. Even in India. If I remember my childhood and some experience its never heard of. But that was way before Sikh Separatists movement.

Sikh have more Victoria Cross than the such incidences.

Now with Google this what I found and this was common in my childhood days. And this pic is from 2009 so it looks like relegious people are in same attire, after 100s years.
»farm3.staticflickr.com/2530/4165 ··· cd3b.jpg
People carry guns and swords but will never hear/see violence or stabbings or fighting with guns/swords. They might look like Taliban but they are different than Taliban and were very well educated and cultured people. But you never hear any stabbing with swords or Kirpans.
With exception when Sikh Separatism was fueled with Support from Canada. And I am not talking about Canadian government but Canadian people who supported this.

There is or was speculation in non-sikh Indian community here but that will be different subject and without proof can not be debated or justified. So it would be inappropriate to discuss such.
Also many Sikh and other Indian have forgotten or got over that.

Winston Churchill described the Indians as "a beastly people with a beastly religion." He said they "bred like rabbits."' India should never be given freedom. He was very much against India as Free country.
This is where British got their revenge. They separated Punjab between Pakistan and India. Created Pakistan and now the whole world is suffering.

When I read some posts/comments on DSLR I understand Churchill better.

Anybody interested in why Sikh are so adamant the go back in history and read how Sikhs were used by British and promised a separate country and never honoured it. But that's what British are Best at.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan