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PX Eliezer70
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reply to Warez_Zealot

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic···-daggers


Kalford
Seems To Be An Rtfm Problem.
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reply to elwoodblues
we take a momentary timeout from this latest episode of "I'm right and you're wrong - You racist capitalist redneck bleeding heart socialist commie pinko Godwinian facist." to bring you a shout out to our new sponsors HopSingh Enterprises - makers of the Securkirpan lockable sheath.

said by advert :

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we now return you to "I'm right and you're wrong - You racist capitalist redneck bleeding heart socialist commie pinko Godwin spewing bigoil pandering environmental wingnut facist."

Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver

1 edit
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by Warez_Zealot:

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

There are even more Hindus and Muslims from India, so what's your point?

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic···-daggers

Haha, yeah I googled after I posted that. But to be fair that was almost over 2 years ago, and I don't really think it was big in the news. (At least I don't remember it being in the headlines)

So at least the Kirpan attacks are very few and far between.


Gone
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said by Warez_Zealot:

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

... uh... how?


urbanriot
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reply to Warez_Zealot
It seems folks are alleging that people who religiously wear knives are more than likely to stab people than those who conceal their knives.

I wonder what the statistics of knife attacks in Canada are, that include Sikh's vs. knife attacks in Canada committed by non-Sikh's. I'm also genuinely curious of knife attack rates or murders in India.

If India has 19,215,730 Sikh's and Canada has only 600,000, India must certainly be a dangerous country with a continual threat of knifing.


HiVolt
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It doesn't matter in the general public if someone wears their Kirpan.

It just shouldn't be allowed in secure locations like a courtroom.

I asked this question above, but seems nobody responded. What happens should a Sikh get arrested? Will they let him keep his Kirpan? I seriously doubt it. Same in prisons. I doubt you have Sikhs walking around with weapons.
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Warez_Zealot

join:2006-04-19
Vancouver
reply to Gone
I suppose you can be racist against people from countries such as India, and vicinity, middle east, etc.... and use this excuse to be racist and discriminatory.


urbanriot
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reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

It just shouldn't be allowed in secure locations like a courtroom.

Well, unfortunately for you, you're not a supreme court justice so you don't decide what is or is not secure. Courtroom security is a jurisdictional matter at this time, and the federal court can override such decisions.

Why is a courtroom any more 'dangerous' a location for non-knife wearing people than a shopping mall?

I can understand a debate concerning airplanes or the debate concerning schools, but a courtroom? Which often has people employed in the role of upholding the law?! It's all so irrational.

said by HiVolt:

What happens should a Sikh get arrested?

That's an entirely different topic but an interesting one. Does federal or provincial law override religious requirements? Which laws can be overridden? Which laws can't?

Based on some of the comments I read here, I'm not entirely sure we can reasonably create such laws.


Ian
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ON
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said by urbanriot:

Why is a courtroom any more 'dangerous' a location for non-knife wearing people than a shopping mall?

I can understand a debate concerning airplanes or the debate concerning schools, but a courtroom? Which often has people employed in the role of upholding the law?! It's all so irrational.

You're kidding right? Witnesses, often saying testimony that will anger/inflame defendants or their families. etc...

If that's the case, let's save money and get rid of cops in there too and just use minimum wage stooges for security like the malls.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


loosedobbs

join:2006-06-13
Toronto
reply to Warez_Zealot
said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic···-daggers

So almost 100 years Sikhs are in Canada and just one incident with help of Google. May find one more.

This was serious issue as its religious symbol was used in Domestic dispute. It was never heard of and never to be used for that.

said by Warez_Zealot:

said by Gone:

said by Warez_Zealot:

You can classify it as racism. Have you ever met a white Sikh? Though they exist, they are mostly people from India.

There are even more Hindus and Muslims from India, so what's your point?

Well, you could be considered racist in this circumstance.

said by PX Eliezer70:

said by Warez_Zealot:

To put things into perspective, has anyone ever read an article about a Sikh person attacking another person with their Kirpan?

Shit, first hit on Google.

The crowd of about 150 people was yelling obscenities and threats outside the Sikh Lehar Centre in Brampton when three temple officials stepped out to pacify them.

Within seconds, one in the crowd, clutching a thick steel bangle, punched Manjit Mangat, the 53-year-old president of the Sikh temple, in the face. Witnesses say at least two men brandished unsheathed kirpans, the Sikh ceremonial dagger.

The next moment, Mangat, a prominent Brampton lawyer, was on the ground — his face bloodied and a 5-inch wound in his abdomen.

Brampton’s Sukhwant Singh, in his early 50s, has been charged with attempted murder and aggravated assault, Peel police say. Singh’s next court appearance is on Thursday.

Any weapon could have been used in the attack, but the fact that it was a kirpan alarms Sikh leaders who fear the incident will rouse objections once again over one’s right to wear the religious symbol in public.

»www.thestar.com/news/crime/artic···-daggers

Haha, yeah I googled after I posted that. But to be fair that was almost over 2 years ago, and I don't really think it was big in the news. (At least I don't remember it being in the headlines)

So at least the Kirpan attacks are very few and far between.

Its Rare. Very rare.

Almost never heard of. Even in India. If I remember my childhood and some experience its never heard of. But that was way before Sikh Separatists movement.

Sikh have more Victoria Cross than the such incidences.

Now with Google this what I found and this was common in my childhood days. And this pic is from 2009 so it looks like relegious people are in same attire, after 100s years.
»farm3.staticflickr.com/2530/4165···cd3b.jpg
People carry guns and swords but will never hear/see violence or stabbings or fighting with guns/swords. They might look like Taliban but they are different than Taliban and were very well educated and cultured people. But you never hear any stabbing with swords or Kirpans.
With exception when Sikh Separatism was fueled with Support from Canada. And I am not talking about Canadian government but Canadian people who supported this.

There is or was speculation in non-sikh Indian community here but that will be different subject and without proof can not be debated or justified. So it would be inappropriate to discuss such.
Also many Sikh and other Indian have forgotten or got over that.

Winston Churchill described the Indians as "a beastly people with a beastly religion." He said they "bred like rabbits."' India should never be given freedom. He was very much against India as Free country.
This is where British got their revenge. They separated Punjab between Pakistan and India. Created Pakistan and now the whole world is suffering.

When I read some posts/comments on DSLR I understand Churchill better.

Anybody interested in why Sikh are so adamant the go back in history and read how Sikhs were used by British and promised a separate country and never honoured it. But that's what British are Best at.

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirpan

PX Eliezer70
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reply to elwoodblues
The whole discussion here has assumed that these kirpans are about 8 cm long.

But kirpans can be a METER long (3 feet to us Americans):

Here:

»www.sikhlink.net/store/catsearch···ahebs%29

Folks, a sharp thing that's a meter long is rather like a sword.

So should tolerance, non-discrimination, good feeling, and religious freedom, allow the carrying of swords into Canadian or US courts?

PX Eliezer70
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reply to loosedobbs
said by loosedobbs:

This is where British got their revenge. They separated Punjab between Pakistan and India. Created Pakistan and now the whole world is suffering.

When I read some posts/comments on DSLR I understand Churchill better.

Anybody interested in why Sikh are so adamant the go back in history and read how Sikhs were used by British and promised a separate country and never honoured it. But that's what British are Best at.

I certainly agree with you there.

The arrogance of tiny far-off Britain to say that they had a right to rule over the whole Indian subcontinent (what today is India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and then some).......!

And wherever they left, they made a mess.

Look at a map. See how they created the country of Gambia stuck inside the middle of Senegal.

And of course the entire Middle East.....!

And the subjugation of Ireland.....

If you think that Pakistan, and Jammu and Kashmir, are the only problems they left behind when they left India, that's wrong. There are many other disputes just like Kashmir, but not as well known.


Gone
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reply to Warez_Zealot
said by Warez_Zealot:

I suppose you can be racist against people from countries such as India, and vicinity, middle east, etc.... and use this excuse to be racist and discriminatory.

Nothing you just said made one bit of sense.

NCRGuy

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reply to urbanriot
said by urbanriot:

Well, unfortunately for you, you're not a supreme court justice so you don't decide what is or is not secure. Courtroom security is a jurisdictional matter at this time, and the federal court can override such decisions.

This is one of the more scattered and non-sensical posts I have seen on here. I don't know what you are talking about, or what federal court judges have to do with it, since we're talking about Ontario courts. The jurisdiction is Ontario, and undet Ontario law, court houses are secure locations under the Public Works Protection Act.

Sukunai
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reply to elwoodblues
Dumb shit, just mooooore dumb shit.

It's why I reserve the right to exercise my right to be completely and utterly free of your f**king religions. ALL OF THEM.

I don't want your lame rebutals I have no proof your nonexistent fairy tale imaginary beings don't exist.

And I sure don't want religions forcing me to accept it is ok to let emotionally hot headed religious types wear fricking weapons in a courtroom FOR ANY REASON.

And people wonder why I think they are being unreasonable objecting to my expectations.


urbanriot
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

This is one of the more scattered and non-sensical posts I have seen on here. I don't know what you are talking about, or what federal court judges have to do with it, since we're talking about Ontario courts. The jurisdiction is Ontario, and undet Ontario law, court houses are secure locations under the Public Works Protection Act.

If you put two and two together, you'll see that it's not at all nonsensical and has everything to do with religious accommodation in Canada. That's the country that you and I and everyone participating in this thread are in, with the exception of the one American. Look above... "Canadian Chat"

NCRGuy

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said by urbanriot:

said by NCRGuy:

This is one of the more scattered and non-sensical posts I have seen on here. I don't know what you are talking about, or what federal court judges have to do with it, since we're talking about Ontario courts. The jurisdiction is Ontario, and undet Ontario law, court houses are secure locations under the Public Works Protection Act.

If you put two and two together, you'll see that it's not at all nonsensical and has everything to do with religious accommodation in Canada. That's the country that you and I and everyone participating in this thread are in, with the exception of the one American. Look above... "Canadian Chat"

It's up to you to put an argument together, not for me to figure it out from rNdom ramblings, and I still don't know what your point is.

EdmundGerber

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reply to elwoodblues
I'm Scottish - do you really want me bring a Claymore to court? I don't think so. But, it's an important part of my culture!

Stupid decision - a weapon is a weapon.




FFH5
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reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt:

Keep giving them an inch, they'll keep taking an arm...

This makes me wonder... I'm sure there are Sikh prisoners. Are they allowed to walk around with a dagger? I bet they aren't.

And they don't get to board airplanes with their little weapons. They shouldn't be allowed in court with them either. The same security rules should apply equally to all - religion be damned.


urbanriot
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reply to NCRGuy
said by NCRGuy:

It's up to you to put an argument together, not for me to figure it out from rNdom ramblings, and I still don't know what your point is.

No, you're just playing your same old purposely obtuse games. You get what I'm saying you just disagree with my stance so you do your best to play ignorant. You succeeded so we'll just move along.
Expand your moderator at work

NCRGuy

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reply to urbanriot

Re: [Rant] Kirpans allowed in Ontario Courts

said by urbanriot:

said by NCRGuy:

It's up to you to put an argument together, not for me to figure it out from rNdom ramblings, and I still don't know what your point is.

No, you're just playing your same old purposely obtuse games. You get what I'm saying you just disagree with my stance so you do your best to play ignorant. You succeeded so we'll just move along.

I seriously don't know what your point was, if in fact you did have one.