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moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

I wonder about analog tv transmitters.

I know everything went digital, but there are still quite a few sites around that have the analog equipment in place and most of them still have power going to them..

Now say in an EAN situation could the tv stations fire up there older analog equipment to start broadcasting again? I just wondered this for a while now, seems to me it would be wise to keep a fall over in case of some big huge event.

I dono though, any ideas?
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd

Premium Member

Not legally. Fcc pawned the spectrum off to bw unused by the cell carriers. However in a pinch i bet in a major city if the Mayor said fire it up his request overrides the FCC. Its not like it would cause harm because the analog spectrum is being squatted and not being used.
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman to moes

Premium Member

to moes
I guarantee you there is no electrical power being sent to non usable analog equipment. That was one of the supposed benefits of digital, significantly less of an electric bill. Also, getting equipment not needed off the towers helps reduce structural and wind loads, reducing wear on the structure. And no, a mayor does not get to override the FCC. He can call FEMA or the FCC and ask for emergency waivers in dire situations. Generally though the FCC has a contingency plan for helping get OTA stations back on the air. AM/FM radio is the first priority for the FCC, because it takes less resources to get back on the air. Local radio stations have been able to function in civil disasters when the local television stations were down or useless to people without portable TVs. Hand cranked radios are a realistic option for most families. Hand cranked TVs are not. And cellular is one of the first to get overloaded or knocked out in a weather disaster.
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

The site in bloomington where I am working right now still has power to the site, talked to guy on site there yesterday. Said he does not know if could be used like I asked, but the station that owns it wont cut the power to the site just "incase".
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman

Premium Member

The National Association of Broadcasters (NAB) will tell anyone that broadcasters exist on subsistence wages with no real profits. Why a digital broadcaster would leave electricity running to analog transmitters and then have to pay the electric bill in this economy is beyond me. I can see a weekly or daily test, but not continuous operation. I guess the NAB is wrong, some broadcasters have more profits than ever.

kkb2
Object of the Panopticon
join:2000-06-11
Colorado

kkb2 to moes

Member

to moes
They might be able to broadcast, but who would be able to receive the signal?

Folks with a digital TV and can't handle the analog signal and the number of folks using a converter for their analog sets are slowly upgrading to digital.
me1212
join:2008-11-20
Lees Summit, MO

me1212

Member

my digital tvs could get analog just fine before the switch.

Granted with most people having cable/sat and lots of local sations having news evens available for streaming from their website this may all be m00t.

joako
Premium Member
join:2000-09-07
/dev/null

joako to moes

Premium Member

to moes
I sure hope not. If I could I would opt out of the annoying government mandated intrusion into my life known as the "Emergency Alert System."
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

but when you need that intrusion and it was not there, who will you blame?

Not flaming or trolling you, I am just making a valid point. I'm a little worried everybody has become so complacent with this thing called "digital tv" that they are forgetting that analog ruled the waves and that some of us still only use tv's from that era.

It's a concern and safety aspect I worry about.
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman

Premium Member

The EAS system can work with ATSC tuners. If you have a NTSC only set, then you should be using a digital to analog tuner box to convert from ATSC to NTSC. One thing to note is that the FCC and the NAB have both supported the idea of putting AM/FM radios into cellular devices. This would be primarily done to provide another path for radio broadcasts during an emergency. Note that AM/FM radio is a higher priority than television for emergency broadcasts. The reason is that local radio stations can easily respond to the need to send out information. TV stations may have a more difficult time.

Get yourself a hand-cranked/battery powered AM/FM radio or combination AM/FM/Weather radio and you should be OK.

If the ATSC system cannot do EAS, then having analog lying around will not help much, as by 2020 few will have analog only sets.
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

I'm hoping for quite alot of improvement in how the system handled currently. I just wish they could of left some tv stations as emergency units, instead of making them all shutdown there analog broadcasters.

I wont be ditching my analog tv units until they go bad, the one in the kitchen is a 13 inch from 93 and the rest are 27 inch magnavoxs from 02. so no plans to replace them as they work perfectly fine, I do not throw away things that still work fine and I don't care about digital picture and sound, it's not on my important factor for watching tv or movies.

Yes I have a digital convertor box for the 13 inch down stairs and the rest are on comcrap.
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman

Premium Member

The 2002 TVs, are they just hooked up with the coax from Comcast? The FCC got a "voluntary" 3 year delay, to June 2012, in cable system operators changing to all digital. The FCC wants another 3 years, until June 2015, to make the switch. The cable system operators oppose the additional delay because they need the analog spectrum to meet the future needs of very high speed internet and high definition channels. Some cable system operators have even resorted to mandatory use of cable compatible digital to analog converter boxes. The boxes were free for self installation up until a certain date. After that the customer has to pay. If you do not convert by a certain date, you will be stuck with the most basic of analog cable service. The local OTA broadcasters, the PEG(Public, Educational,Government) channels, and the cable system operators own analog channels. For most cable subscribers this has meant about 12 channels, which take up about 90MHz. If the FCC does not get the extension, I expect there will be a final 24 month push to get the conversion to all digital cable done. An ultimatum of either convert or loose any cable TV signal will occur to analog subscribers. I read somewhere that a Mexican cable system operator got so fed up with customer stalling on this issue that they cut off the analog signal to entire areas, sent trucks out full of converter boxes, and installed them at no charge. They could not wait any more on customers taking action voluntarily. They really needed that analog spectrum for digital uses and did something drastic to get it. I would think there are some cable system operators in the USA who might get to that desperate level and do something similarly drastic. Digital is much more efficient than analog and converting to all digital is much less costly than expanding cable plant frequency capabilities.

Analog TV, cable or OTA. is going to be ended because it is an inefficient use of spectrum. That means even those low power, translators, repeaters, and whatnot that still transmit in analog. By 2020 they will all be gone. Converted to digital or shut down with the spectrum available for white-space broadband.

Weirdal
Premium Member
join:2003-06-28
Grand Island, NE

Weirdal to moes

Premium Member

to moes
In an emergency situation, broadcasting over the radio will do way more good then broadcasting over an analog TV station that most people don't even have programmed into their digital tuners anymore.
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

said by Weirdal:

In an emergency situation, broadcasting over the radio will do way more good then broadcasting over an analog TV station that most people don't even have programmed into their digital tuners anymore.

I do carry a small portable tv around in my emergency chest, along with a radio. so I am prepared for things.
said by davidhoffman:

The 2002 TVs, are they just hooked up with the coax from Comcast? The FCC got a "voluntary" 3 year delay, to June 2012, in cable system operators changing to all digital. The FCC wants another 3 years, until June 2015, to make the switch. The cable system operators oppose the additional delay because they need the analog spectrum to meet the future needs of very high speed internet and high definition channels. Some cable system operators have even resorted to mandatory use of cable compatible digital to analog converter boxes. The boxes were free for self installation up until a certain date. After that the customer has to pay. If you do not convert by a certain date, you will be stuck with the most basic of analog cable service. The local OTA broadcasters, the PEG(Public, Educational,Government) channels, and the cable system operators own analog channels. For most cable subscribers this has meant about 12 channels, which take up about 90MHz. If the FCC does not get the extension, I expect there will be a final 24 month push to get the conversion to all digital cable done. An ultimatum of either convert or loose any cable TV signal will occur to analog subscribers. I read somewhere that a Mexican cable system operator got so fed up with customer stalling on this issue that they cut off the analog signal to entire areas, sent trucks out full of converter boxes, and installed them at no charge. They could not wait any more on customers taking action voluntarily. They really needed that analog spectrum for digital uses and did something drastic to get it. I would think there are some cable system operators in the USA who might get to that desperate level and do something similarly drastic. Digital is much more efficient than analog and converting to all digital is much less costly than expanding cable plant frequency capabilities.

Analog TV, cable or OTA. is going to be ended because it is an inefficient use of spectrum. That means even those low power, translators, repeaters, and whatnot that still transmit in analog. By 2020 they will all be gone. Converted to digital or shut down with the spectrum available for white-space broadband.

I am on comcast digital starter with the boxes, I dont exactly call that digital, I call that SD with a box lol! and there full boxes not dta's.

I just honestly wishing we did have more options in case of emergencies, It's my biggest concern in this day and age. I guess I got so accustomed to the way things we're and now how things are going kinda do scare me. but guess at some point I will have to adapt, well once my old tv sets give up the ghost then I will have too.

I think things could of been done differently, mostly the way I look at it, keep one broadcaster in the state as an emergency backup and have them maintain equipment which could be used to transmit on all the current analog stations people we're used to.

John Galt6
Forward, March
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp

1 recommendation

John Galt6 to moes

Premium Member

to moes
I keep an old spark-gap transmitter powered up...just in case!
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

said by John Galt6:

I keep an old spark-gap transmitter powered up...just in case!

heh john
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman to moes

Premium Member

to moes
Television signals are FM based and thus subject to line of sight restrictions. Based on all the OTA TV antenna tables out there, I would say 75 miles is the practical limit for an OTA signal. Sure you might get something at 150 miles, but of what quality? So, living in the State of Georgia, which is about 300 miles from North to South and 230 miles East to West, your one analog backup transmitter would do no good for at least 50% of the population of Georgia.

I think some of your concerns are based on the absolutely lousy original ATSC standard. The signal can be too fragile at any distance. An antenna vibrates in the wind and signal loss occurs. You cannot put a standard ATSC tuner equipped TV in a moving platform and get a good picture. You used to in the old NTSC analog days. People had TVs that were watchable at 60 mph.

Well, the ATSC finally admitted this was a problem and created a mobile ATSC standard. You will not get an HDTV picture at 60mph, but you will get a low resolution, I think 240P, usable signal at that speed. That means handheld and portable devices can get a signal during emergencies when people are on the move. The FCC has stated that that is a good solution to the weaknesses of the regular ATSC standard. Yes, people will have to buy new portable TVs with the mobile tuner to get the signal. There is no other way to do it, due to the lousy original standard setting by the ATSC.

But, again, being a pest, analog radio is the primary emergency communication mode for crisis situations. The plan to force radio stations to go all digital seems to be stopped for the foreseeable future. The digital standards there are all tied up in patented, copyrighted, licensed for a fee, hardware and software disputes.

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH
·Consolidated Com..
·Republic Wireless
·Hollis Hosting

tschmidt to moes

MVM

to moes
said by moes:

I just wondered this for a while now, seems to me it would be wise to keep a fall over in case of some big huge event.

What is it you are trying to accomplish.

All the full power stations have converted to digital, often on a different physical channel then their old analog channel. In addition channels above 51 are no longer allocated to TV.

It is not true that all stations have converted to digital. There are still low power and repeaters on analog. I'm too lazy to look up the date they need to convert.

/tom
Happydude32
Premium Member
join:2005-07-16

Happydude32 to moes

Premium Member

to moes
It's pretty sad, as we sit here half way through the year 2012, the word 'analog' is still being used. There should be NOTHING analog anymore.

And who cares about emergency alerts. I haven't listened to shitty AM/FM radio since 2003 when I first got XM. Satellite radio provided many benefits over regular shitty OTA radio, including not hearing ‘BZZZZZZZZZZZ this is a test of the emergency alert system, this is only a test'. But as a few years ago satellite radio has to do this annoying crap too as per FCC regulations.
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to davidhoffman

Premium Member

to davidhoffman
well you also have the fact there is no benefits to digital radio. where radio is listened to is normally on low quality hardware anyway. car radios, portable radios, the odd ghettoblaster or two.

And of course from a safety angle, analog radio just plain works. I could dig a transistor set out of a box from an attic and still get an AM broadcast.

pnjunction
Teksavvy Extreme
Premium Member
join:2008-01-24
Toronto, ON

pnjunction to moes

Premium Member

to moes
They'd be better off to work on emergency alerts through the cell phone networks that the spectrum is going to be used for. Cell phones are portable, run on batteries, and are usually on standby for alerts. There is still AM/FM radio for those without cell phones. Gotta make sure they don't abuse it though, one topic on here was talking about getting woken up by amber alerts through a weather warning system which is pretty lame.
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman

Premium Member

The FCC has had discussions about EAS for cellular devices. The NAB wants to get a mandate for the transceiver circuitry for radio and/or ATSC M/H stations to be installed in all cellular phones sold in the USA. The cellular industry has looked at various messaging schemes. No consensus has developed on this subject.

davidg
Good Bye My Friend
MVM
join:2002-06-15
00000

davidg to moes

MVM

to moes
it ain't that easy to just fire one back up, especially if they pulled the original antenna down after the switch. those antennas are not tuned to pass X bandwidth, but more to pass a specific portion which matches their licensed frequency. in many cases(not all) the original freqs for 50+ years are not the same ones they use now.

i think what you are talking about is a low power TV station or even a relay, those can still run analog though most in my area have switched to digital since the majority of their audience are old and don't understand how to change back and forth between digital converters and OTA analog.

Hayward0
K A R - 1 2 0 C
Premium Member
join:2000-07-13
Key West, FL

Hayward0 to davidhoffman

Premium Member

to davidhoffman
said by davidhoffman:

Analog TV, cable or OTA. is going to be ended because it is an inefficient use of spectrum.

Comcrap here went all digital at the end of April, though for the moment still air analog you can't watch this anymore notices on the analog channels.
Which is a pain in the ass, as you have to manually delete them after rescanning your TV tuner for the ATSC channels that aren't encoded, unless you have a real new TV that doesn't have a NTSC tuner.

pende_tim
Premium Member
join:2004-01-04
Selbyville, DE

1 recommendation

pende_tim to John Galt6

Premium Member

to John Galt6
said by John Galt6:

I keep an old spark-gap transmitter powered up...just in case!

I thought that was you I heard on my cat's whisker set last night!
Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium Member
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ

Kearnstd to moes

Premium Member

to moes
EAS for weather radios and cell phones should be fully restricted to actual emergencies. If a tornado is coming or some other natural disaster I want to know. I do not really need a text message or a WX radio alert for a kid grabbed upstate.

Naturally I know this sounds cold hearted(and I expect a reply at some point with "you dont have kids do you") But really emergency systems should not be overused or people start to ignore the tone. Its why its a big deal when building fire alarms have falses, if it happens too much when the real thing happens people think its a false alarm.
davidhoffman
Premium Member
join:2009-11-19
Warner Robins, GA

davidhoffman

Premium Member

Actually I think many will agree with you. The missing child cases have their own set of alerts that I think are quite adequate. Electronic text highway information signs. Electronic billboards can be rapidly programmed to get out missing child information. TV and radio announcements. TV crawlers. Text messages, at no charge to subscriber, to cell phones covered by certain cellular towers in a geographic area might even be used. Natural disaster alerting systems should not be used.
moes
Premium Member
join:2009-11-15
Cedar City, UT

moes

Premium Member

yeah I am not worried about the child alerts coming through EAS, I dont have kids, so as you even said sound cold hearted, but it's not a top emergency priority, unlike tornado's, EANs or such.