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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
kudos:23
reply to ssherwood

Re: [TV] FibeTV (HPNA) + OTA on same coaxial?

Your planned layout will cut off the bottom of the HPNA spectrum...
--
Developer: Tomato/MLPPP, Linux/MLPPP, etc »fixppp.org



ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

1 edit

said by Guspaz:

Your planned layout will cut off the bottom of the HPNA spectrum...

Are you sure? Bell's HPNA is v.3 which should be 4-36Mhz. The sub-band diplexer allows 5-40Mhz (the HPNA Holland splitter Bell put in is 5-1000Mhz, so I'm not too worried about the 4 vs. 5 Mhz at the bottom)




(Image lifted from »www.homenetworkingdepot.com/html···c.I.html)

-- SS


AnonDSLGuy

@telus.net
reply to mlerner

said by mlerner:

I wonder why the manufacturer couldn't just use MoCA which is far superior..

Because the exceptionally high power consumption of the earlier MOCA chipsets kept MOCA from being included in low power, low cost telco IPTV STB's. By comparison, every IPTV STB deployed by AT&T, Bell, TELUS, etc, have an integrated low power HPNA 3.0 chipset (provided by CopperGate, which is now Sigma Designs).

The cable co's with much more expensive, higher power consuming STB's could afford the power requirements of MOCA chipsets, and hence went that route.

Either way its a moot point, G.hn chipsets come out this year and should support gigabit rates on coax or powerline. Since its actually standardized by the ITU-T, it'll probably kill HPNA and Moca in a few years. The next generation of STB's will hopefully have G.hn chipsets (Sigma Designs already has one) built in.

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to ssherwood

Holland HPNA splitters go down to 4 MHz. here:

»www.hollandelectronics.com/catal···Splitter

and spec sheet here:

»www.hollandelectronics.com/catal···ters.pdf

Holland model SBD (Sub-Band/CATV Separator/joiner) has a range of 1 - 42 MHz. & 54 - 1000MHz. here:

»www.hollandelectronics.com/catal···r-Joiner

and the spec sheet is here:

»www.hollandelectronics.com/catal···iner.pdf

Interestingly; the label on the SBD (Sub-Band/CATV Separator/joiner) has the sub band range at 5 - 40 MHz. and the spec sheet pdf document lists the range as 1 - 42 MHz.

These types of devices are extremely cheap and likely have poor repeatable quality, with a very shallow slope at the band limits. This allows them to function reasonably well outside the limits posted on the label.

Good filters for lab work will cost in the $100.00 and up range and usually have a steep slope and a repeatable spec from one device to another.

Rick.



ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

Thanks, Rick.

Bell themselves use Holland splitters when they install FibeTV, as does ATT for U-Verse in the US. (they use the VDSL/HPNA diplexer in the US as the VDSL signal is on the coax from the NID) While what Bell/ATT do shouldn't be taken as an example of what is right and proper, if it is good enough for their installs, it should be good enough for my application, quality wise.

Thanks for looking at the spec sheets - I was going by what is on the labels. I wonder why they would label the device 5-40Mhz when it is actually cable of 1-42Mhz?? Bizzare. Also, I find it interesting that their SBD's range goes lower than their HPNA splitters, which are also labelled starting at 5Mhz, but only go down to 4Mhz according to the specs.

At any rate, the good news is that the HPNA frequency range should be wide enough with the SBD diplexers I ordered.

The only other concern seems to be signal leakage, and it seems that the -40dB high pass filter should eliminate that.

I've learned a lot more about signals, frequencies, interference and leakage etc. by trying to accomplish this OTA+HPNA on 1 coaxial task. I only hope now that 1) it works, and 2) it helps someone else in the future trying to do the same!

-- SS



LazMan
Premium
join:2003-03-26
canada
reply to ssherwood

said by ssherwood:

On a side note, how do you place uploaded attachments/images where you want them in a post? Is there a way to do this gracefully without loading them via a URL?

-- SS

Use the "[ att = #]" tag, where # is the attchment # (1, 2, 3, etc...) - just put the tag where you want it in the post...


ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

said by LazMan:

Use the "[ att = #]" tag, where # is the attchment # (1, 2, 3, etc...) - just put the tag where you want it in the post...

Sweet - thanks!




That is a schematic for a stub filter that I was contemplating making before I realized how cheap the Holland diplexer and high pass filter would be. (just testing the ATT tag really!)



-- SS


news

@videotron.ca
reply to ssherwood

There's good chances you will be ok...


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to ssherwood

said by ssherwood:

. . . as does ATT for U-Verse in the US. (they use the VDSL/HPNA diplexer in the US as the VDSL signal is on the coax from the NID

While the Holland model DPLS-2AR (HPNA-TV/VDSL diplexer) is listed in their diplexer spec sheet; a search for that device on the Holland web site appears to no longer be available.

»www.hollandelectronics.com/catal···iner.pdf

Rick


ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON
reply to ssherwood

Just a small update - I have received the Holland SBD diplexers, and tested it out to see if the two signals could co-exist.

I'm happy to say that it works! After my brief test, I disconnected my antenna from the circuit as I haven't yet received my high pass filter, and want to avoid the signal leakage issue.

-- SS



ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

Hello again all,

Just wanted to say that I've received my high-pass filter and installed it as I planned (in front of the diplexer), and all seems to work well. I have OTA and FibeTV (HPNA) running on the same coaxial cable to my TVs.

It was certainly an adventure trying to find an example of this being done by someone else online, but just in case someone else wonders the same thing, yes, it is possible.

The main things I learned from this project :

1) While OTA and HPNA frequencies don't overlap, your OTA antenna may receive frequencies in the 4-54Mhz range (HAM radio, Emergency Services etc.) in this range which will in turn interfere with your HPNA.
2) Specialized HPNA/CATV diplexers are required to help mitigate this.
3) Your Antenna can actually act as a transmitter, so FibeTV's HPNA signal can potentially be broadcast in turn interfering with HAM radio and other important emergency frequencies (signal leakage).
4) A high-pass filter, or other filtering device which stops signal leakage is required to prevent this potentially dangerous situation.

So there you have it. I've had my cables hooked up like this for the past several days and have both FibeTV (HPNA) and OTA (CATV) running to my three locations over the same shared RG6 to each site.

Mission accomplished!

-- SS



news

@videotron.ca

Good job!!


urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to ssherwood

Fantastic work! Wish I could see that in action. I bet if I told the guys this in the next crew meeting they'd all think I was smoking the crack.

I'm bookmarking this thread to refer to in future.


RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to ssherwood

Happy to contribute to the solution.

Rick



ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

Thanks again Rick - I learned a lot through the process.



Bantamcc

@bell.ca
reply to ssherwood

Re: [TV] FibeTV (HPNA) + OTA on same coaxial? Forget Bell !

Hi !

Looks like you got a few options below. I worked for Bell and when Fibe was being rolled out, I even had trouble getting specs. I just wanted to know if HPNA was going to go wireless or coaxial.

As far as a solution, you're better off researching on your own as Bell will certainly NOT provide you with a workaround. Best you attempt splitting VHF (HPNA) and UHF (OTA) as discussed.

Bell has no intention of encouraging OTA as their business model of IPTV is to sell programming.

As an example when I had satellite, I tried running OTA through a 6100 receiver after digital conversion as an older HDTV had no ATSC receiver embedded.

Digital channels were captured but not displayed as the 6100 satellite receiver I had de-commissioned it from my satellite membership. After tests I concluded that OTA would only work over those 6100's with antenna input if your receiver was not activated with Bell. Bell ? Grrrrr..

Good luck ! 'Lemme know how successful you are as I'd like to try the same as I've FIBE too and would like to compare resolution.

If I could figure a way of getting specialty channels over OTA I'd cancel Fibe as a buddy of mine has OTA and has excellent quality of image.

My email is dezbeauvais@sympatico.ca



ssherwood
Premium
join:2002-02-23
Toronto, ON

Hi there,

I've had no issues that I can attribute to FibeTV after using the proper diplexers etc.. I do occasionally lose OTA signal on some of the weaker stations, but my FibeTV has been just fine.

I think its a very workable solution for those who have good coaxial in their homes already.

-- SS