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garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA

Re: replace a smart meter with a non smart meter.

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by garys_2k:

I know, but I think for most of us (the vast majority, in fact) previously had the dial type meters that had to be directly eyeballed to be read. Meter reader ON the property, up close and personal. What a $hitstorm that would cause if it suddenly became required from formerly not.

How many years did we have electric, gas and water meter readers come on to the property sometimes in the home to read the meters with absolutely no problems? Even today in many parts of the country this is still the norm. Remotely read meters from the road are fairly recent. Why do you think it would be a problem now?

Oh, I know, but my point is that if we were used to remotely read meters, where nobody ever has to come onto our property, then imagine if the upgrade had been to personally read meters.

The hullabaloo would be all about the utility "spies" coming onto our property. No more privacy! People would be screaming to keep their remotely read meters, websites would be devoted to fighting those "invasive" meter readers -- some would likely suggest greeting these people with threats.

My point is that, if the shoe was on the other foot and we had to evolve from remote to personally read meters then some people would be having a fit. Likely the same people who now cringe at the thought of nobody routinely coming onto their property.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by garys_2k:

I know, but I think for most of us (the vast majority, in fact) previously had the dial type meters that had to be directly eyeballed to be read. Meter reader ON the property, up close and personal. What a $hitstorm that would cause if it suddenly became required from formerly not.

How many years did we have electric, gas and water meter readers come on to the property sometimes in the home to read the meters with absolutely no problems? Even today in many parts of the country this is still the norm. Remotely read meters from the road are fairly recent. Why do you think it would be a problem now?

I can answer that one, times have changed, and not only do you have people impersonating meter readers to commit crimes in the home, there are some valid meter readers employed by the utilities committing crimes under the guise of their job. it's not like it used to be many years ago. it's safer not having the reader on your property these days, for some people. those with large protective dogs excluded.
Expand your moderator at work

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to robbin

Premium Member

to robbin

Re: replace a smart meter with a non smart meter.

You do realize Robbin that reading the posts is entirely your choice don't you? If you don't like what's being posted then you can also choose not to read them. The choice is entirely up to you.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

I can also choose to respond as this is a public forum for that exact purpose.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

Yes and we can choose to reply to your posts as I have.
Jack_in_VA

Jack_in_VA to iknow

Premium Member

to iknow
said by iknow:

I can answer that one, times have changed, and not only do you have people impersonating meter readers to commit crimes in the home, there are some valid meter readers employed by the utilities committing crimes under the guise of their job. it's not like it used to be many years ago. it's safer not having the reader on your property these days, for some people. those with large protective dogs excluded.

In most cases as mine the meter is read remotely by a truck riding by but I am not in the least afraid to let a meter reader access the meter on my property. I don't have a large protective (vicious) dog either.

I guess I'm just too trusting and have too much faith in my fellow man. It's served me well for almost 69 years now so I don't see any need to change.

Perhaps it's the part of the country I live in that doesn't instill a sense of extreme danger since it's very rural and most everybody knows everyone else.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

1 recommendation

garys_2k

Premium Member

And yet for some, that "faith in [their] fellow man" all falls apart when meters can be read from a central location. Then it becomes a tool for big gubmint and money grubbing capitalists.

As for the meter I have, I'm anxious for our utility to roll out the self monitoring via the Internet. Then I can assess for myself the advisability of TOU billing (that's been around for a LONG time, way before the digital meters). If the rate looks better for me I'll jump on it.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

1 recommendation

iknow to robbin

Premium Member

to robbin
said by robbin:

The time they let my dog out, I spent most of two full days searching before someone caught him and called the animal shelter. I'm not the paranoid one. I didn't start this thread. I just don't have the time to pretend I'm living in the 50's (or 70's or 90's). When technology can make improvements or lessen costs, I'm for them. I really don't understand this thread. Is this a security concern or a discussion on government and it's role in governing the behavior of the local Electric company /Co-op? Or perhaps, just the kind of discussion people would have sitting around in the pub.

originally it was about the legality of replacing your smart meter by yourself, then, related details were brought up, which may seem to be confusing, but are related in general to the smart meter issue, as security, government, politics, and general thoughts on the subject are relevant, but not questioned in the OPs topic.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

1 edit

Jack_in_VA to garys_2k

Premium Member

to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:

And yet for some, that "faith in [their] fellow man" all falls apart when meters can be read from a central location. Then it becomes a tool for big gubmint and money grubbing capitalists.

As for the meter I have, I'm anxious for our utility to roll out the self monitoring via the Internet. Then I can assess for myself the advisability of TOU billing (that's been around for a LONG time, way before the digital meters). If the rate looks better for me I'll jump on it.

I have no problem with my meter being read remotely gathering my "Monthly" usage for billing purposes. No conspiracy there. The ability to monitor if power is off is an added but not critical benefit as most POCO's still request a phone call for outages.

Using Google and Bing there apparently are several areas notably in California that are backing off installing Smart Meters and in some cases removing them. The issue is far from settled in spite of what the POCO's want.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin

Mod

So if cost is not an issue, you would not be opposed to TOU billing if it was determined to be the fairest way to bill for all users?

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

3 edits

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

What does that have to do with the OP original post that Grobinette reminded us of?

Your question is more political and will be determined by our respective legislatures and oversight agencies. Not here on a forum.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

1 recommendation

robbin

Mod

Experts would be the ones to determine what's fair. I'm pretty sure there is already a start as in at least most areas the utilities have to get permission from the PUC or similar to change rates. As much as I think there is a major role for government, in my wildest imagination, I cannot imagine it is to force utility companies to overbuild their plants to the point that anyone can draw as much power as they want at subsidized rates by forcing everyone to pay more so the very few can be wasteful.

Still, you did not answer my question -- If TOU billing was the fairest billing method would you be in favor of it? You have already stated that you have no issues paying your bill so money should not be as much of a concern for you as it may be for others who would have to help pay for all of these power plants which would need to be built to provide all you can use at any time as you seem to be recommending.

[edit] You seem to have edited multiple posts. I respect this forum too much to make major changes after posting, so if some of this no longer makes sense, it is because of your edits.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

If you want to go in this direction I suggest you start a new thread as your questions are clearly off topic and political.

I edited my last post to remove the off topic material. I suggest you do the same.

Jack

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

2 recommendations

Cho Baka to Jack_in_VA

MVM

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

What does that have to do with the OP original post that Grobinette reminded us of?

Your question is more political and will be determined by our respective legislatures and oversight agencies. Not here on a forum.

The original post and your response are full of half truths and blatant mistruths.

This is what has generated all the angst and the zillion responses.

If something ridiculous is posted it will generate a response.
Many forums would refer to the original post as a troll.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

robbin to Jack_in_VA

Mod

to Jack_in_VA
I guess I don't understand this thread then. If security is not an issue as you seem to have agreed with in a previous post, then the big argument I see against smart meters is that they allow TOU billing. What is off topic about that?

I also do not believe that I have raised any political points, but I did try to raise at least one economic one.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to Cho Baka

Premium Member

to Cho Baka
Really? I didn't post the video on removing the smart meters so why are you flaming me? The mods evidently didn't think it was a troll so why would you? I did however post a "Opt out" and refusal letter for Virginia.

From the OP's original posted video on it's been a free for all by about every poster and degenerated even more by a Johnny come lately troll trying to start a flame war.

Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

2 recommendations

Cho Baka

MVM

I spoke to the content of the original post and your reply.

Content only.

You made this personal.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by Cho Baka:

I spoke to the content of the original post and your reply.

Content only.

You made this personal.

I didn't make it personal. You did.

actually it's close to a flame attack:

The original post and your response are full of half truths and blatant mistruths.


Cho Baka
MVM
join:2000-11-23
there

2 recommendations

Cho Baka to jchambers28

MVM

to jchambers28
I'll repeat myself.

I spoke to content only.
You accused me of flaming you.

You made it personal.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by Cho Baka:

I'll repeat myself.

I spoke to content only.
You accused me of flaming you.

You made it personal.

Accusing me of Half truths and blatant mistruths is not speaking of content. It is a flame attack.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

3 recommendations

mackey

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

Accusing me of Half truths and blatant mistruths is not speaking of content. It is a flame attack.

No, it is a PERFECT description of the content of most of your posts. You personally don't want the smart meters, so you're distorting and making up facts to try and support your position.

YOU were the very first person to go off topic in this thread. The OP asked if it was legal for a house owner to replace a meter themselves. Your response, a letter to the utility, did NOTHING to answer that question.

You personally don't want a smart meter, and you don't think you will see any benefit at all from it. That's nice, we get it. However, other people, most of whom don't have an electronic meter already, think they will see a benefit from it and thus wouldn't mind getting one. Just because you personally don't benefit from one doesn't mean they're wrong for wanting one.

/M

alphapointe
Don't Touch Me
MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO

2 recommendations

alphapointe

MVM

He's a post-whore, anyway. There's a reason why it says "Your moderator at work" throughout this thread... Just ignore the idiot like I do.

I think we should lock this and quit giving jack the attention he craves (go outside, you know, the big blue room?)
49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

1 edit

2 recommendations

49528867 (banned) to robbin

Member

to robbin
said by robbin:

If TOU billing was the fairest billing method would you be in favor of it? You have already stated that you have no issues paying your bill so money should not be as much of a concern for you as it may be for others who would have to help pay for all of these power plants which would need to be built to provide all you can use at any time as you seem to be recommending.

For what it is worth I believe TOU billing/control is inevitable, according to T&D world and other industry sources, distribution grids in the U.S. are already running at 80%+ of their design capacity and utilities know the proliferation of EVs into the residential side of that distribution will quickly take them over the top.

Compounding the problem is many utilities such as AEP are retiring coal fired plants due to EPA mandates requiring considerably lower emissions from those coal fired plants but those mandates do not take into account the time needed to either build new low emission plants, which due to the amount of permitting involved can easily become a 15+ year process or the conversion of those plants to natural gas which depending on where the gas needs to be piped in from and the permitting required to do so can take as long as building a new plant.

As such being stuck between a rock and a hard spot utilities want, or should I say require the ability to control large loads connected to the grid.

Hence the push for smart metering which if designed properly can allow a utility to monitor endpoint usage and if needed cut back or time shift that usage to off peak.

Of course everything comes with a price and in the case of time shifting EV charging the owners of EV’s will quickly learn their level 1 chargers will not be able to fully charge their vehicle during the residential off peak of 11:00 PM until 8:00 AM requiring them to upgrade to level 2 chargers.

Now the preferred method would be to charge during the day when renewable sources are at their peak, but doing so is the holy grail of distribution requiring the installation of chargers at peoples places of work combined with some way of billing the EV owner for the electricity consumed by his vehicle and it would require utilities to upgrade the commercial side of the grid and many business would also need to upgrade their electrical systems and or install renewable energy sources as well.

This green stuff is good and inevitable but is going to require a change of mindsets on both the supply and consumption side of the issue as plugging forward with the same old same old isn’t going to work much longer so we can either take the medicine now or face a triple dose or more of it in the not so distant future.

Wayne

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

This green stuff is good and inevitable but is going to require a change of mindsets on both the supply and consumption side of the issue as plugging forward with the same old same old isn’t going to work much longer so we can either take the medicine now or face a triple dose or more of it in the not so distant future.

What happens when demand exceeds the perceived savings gained by TOU? Rationing and limits to how much power a customer is allowed to use? It's going to happen unless we put limits on the ability of organizations and individuals delaying or blocking new power plants.
AsherN
Premium Member
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

AsherN

Premium Member

TOU billing works. It's about giving custmers an incentive to change some habits. And in most cases, it does not even require much change, other than a few buttons to push. A lot of the changes center around major appliances that don't have to run all the time. Think dishwasher, washer, dryer. Most of those now come with timers. The pricier ones have adustable timers. The cheaper ones will be fixed. I've had TOU billing for a couple of years. My bill has gone down. Changes to lifestyle? I still load my dishwasher right after dinner. But instead of selecting cleaning cycle and pressing 'start', I push the 4-hour timer button, select the cleaning cycle and press the 'start' button. Same with my washer.

garys_2k
Premium Member
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI

garys_2k

Premium Member

+1. Fact of the matter is that baseline, low power use is cheaper to make than peak power. Higher cost generators come online to create capacity for the peaks and are shut down asap once those peaks are over. So, utilities pay "time of generation" rates, why shouldn't they incentivize "time of use" rates to match?

I can imagine that non-TOU rates will become higher and higher as the smart meters are rolled out and individuals will be able to go and see their consumption patterns. The incentive for switching to TOU will become greater and greater.

Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium Member
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO

Fronkman to AsherN

Premium Member

to AsherN
said by AsherN:

TOU billing works. It's about giving custmers an incentive to change some habits. And in most cases, it does not even require much change, other than a few buttons to push.

Bingo, this is it exactly. Customer demand is quickly approaching generation capacity. Currently it is really tough for the POCOs to build new plants (with environmental regulations and the overall cost of a new plant) so they need to figure out how to make the current system go further.

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer. You do this through 1) more accurate billing and 2) TOU billing (charge the customer more when it costs more to make the power).

Lazy, rich people will change absolutely nothing and throw a lot of unnecessary money away. Smart people (regardless of income) will change some habits (turn lights off when leaving a room, program washing machine/dishwasher/etc to run at night, turn up the thermostat a couple of degrees in the summer) or start to look at alternative power sources.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by Fronkman:

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Who is paying the incentives and tax rebates? Aren't you passing the part of the cost of your system on to others? There is nothing without a cost to someone.

mackey
Premium Member
join:2007-08-20

mackey

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Fronkman:

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Who is paying the incentives and tax rebates? Aren't you passing the part of the cost of your system on to others? There is nothing without a cost to someone.

Not necessarily. Some states, such as Pennsylvania, mandate that a certain percentage of power is generated by "alternate" sources. If a power company does not maintain that percentage then they are heavily fined. It may in fact be cheaper for the power companies to pay small incentives to people to install solar/wind then it is for them to build the farms themselves.

/M