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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Cho Baka

Re: replace a smart meter with a non smart meter.

said by Cho Baka:

I'll repeat myself.

I spoke to content only.
You accused me of flaming you.

You made it personal.

Accusing me of Half truths and blatant mistruths is not speaking of content. It is a flame attack.


mackey

join:2007-08-20
kudos:6

3 recommendations

said by Jack_in_VA:

Accusing me of Half truths and blatant mistruths is not speaking of content. It is a flame attack.

No, it is a PERFECT description of the content of most of your posts. You personally don't want the smart meters, so you're distorting and making up facts to try and support your position.

YOU were the very first person to go off topic in this thread. The OP asked if it was legal for a house owner to replace a meter themselves. Your response, a letter to the utility, did NOTHING to answer that question.

You personally don't want a smart meter, and you don't think you will see any benefit at all from it. That's nice, we get it. However, other people, most of whom don't have an electronic meter already, think they will see a benefit from it and thus wouldn't mind getting one. Just because you personally don't benefit from one doesn't mean they're wrong for wanting one.

/M


alphapointe
Don't Touch Me
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-10
Columbia, MO
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Socket Internet ..

2 recommendations

He's a post-whore, anyway. There's a reason why it says "Your moderator at work" throughout this thread... Just ignore the idiot like I do.

I think we should lock this and quit giving jack the attention he craves (go outside, you know, the big blue room?)



49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

1 edit

2 recommendations

reply to robbin

said by robbin:

If TOU billing was the fairest billing method would you be in favor of it? You have already stated that you have no issues paying your bill so money should not be as much of a concern for you as it may be for others who would have to help pay for all of these power plants which would need to be built to provide all you can use at any time as you seem to be recommending.

For what it is worth I believe TOU billing/control is inevitable, according to T&D world and other industry sources, distribution grids in the U.S. are already running at 80%+ of their design capacity and utilities know the proliferation of EVs into the residential side of that distribution will quickly take them over the top.

Compounding the problem is many utilities such as AEP are retiring coal fired plants due to EPA mandates requiring considerably lower emissions from those coal fired plants but those mandates do not take into account the time needed to either build new low emission plants, which due to the amount of permitting involved can easily become a 15+ year process or the conversion of those plants to natural gas which depending on where the gas needs to be piped in from and the permitting required to do so can take as long as building a new plant.

As such being stuck between a rock and a hard spot utilities want, or should I say require the ability to control large loads connected to the grid.

Hence the push for smart metering which if designed properly can allow a utility to monitor endpoint usage and if needed cut back or time shift that usage to off peak.

Of course everything comes with a price and in the case of time shifting EV charging the owners of EV’s will quickly learn their level 1 chargers will not be able to fully charge their vehicle during the residential off peak of 11:00 PM until 8:00 AM requiring them to upgrade to level 2 chargers.

Now the preferred method would be to charge during the day when renewable sources are at their peak, but doing so is the holy grail of distribution requiring the installation of chargers at peoples places of work combined with some way of billing the EV owner for the electricity consumed by his vehicle and it would require utilities to upgrade the commercial side of the grid and many business would also need to upgrade their electrical systems and or install renewable energy sources as well.

This green stuff is good and inevitable but is going to require a change of mindsets on both the supply and consumption side of the issue as plugging forward with the same old same old isn’t going to work much longer so we can either take the medicine now or face a triple dose or more of it in the not so distant future.

Wayne
--
Madness takes its toll, please have exact change ready…


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

This green stuff is good and inevitable but is going to require a change of mindsets on both the supply and consumption side of the issue as plugging forward with the same old same old isn’t going to work much longer so we can either take the medicine now or face a triple dose or more of it in the not so distant future.

What happens when demand exceeds the perceived savings gained by TOU? Rationing and limits to how much power a customer is allowed to use? It's going to happen unless we put limits on the ability of organizations and individuals delaying or blocking new power plants.

AsherN
Premium
join:2010-08-23
Thornhill, ON

TOU billing works. It's about giving custmers an incentive to change some habits. And in most cases, it does not even require much change, other than a few buttons to push. A lot of the changes center around major appliances that don't have to run all the time. Think dishwasher, washer, dryer. Most of those now come with timers. The pricier ones have adustable timers. The cheaper ones will be fixed. I've had TOU billing for a couple of years. My bill has gone down. Changes to lifestyle? I still load my dishwasher right after dinner. But instead of selecting cleaning cycle and pressing 'start', I push the 4-hour timer button, select the cleaning cycle and press the 'start' button. Same with my washer.


garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus

+1. Fact of the matter is that baseline, low power use is cheaper to make than peak power. Higher cost generators come online to create capacity for the peaks and are shut down asap once those peaks are over. So, utilities pay "time of generation" rates, why shouldn't they incentivize "time of use" rates to match?

I can imagine that non-TOU rates will become higher and higher as the smart meters are rolled out and individuals will be able to go and see their consumption patterns. The incentive for switching to TOU will become greater and greater.



Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO
reply to AsherN

said by AsherN:

TOU billing works. It's about giving custmers an incentive to change some habits. And in most cases, it does not even require much change, other than a few buttons to push.

Bingo, this is it exactly. Customer demand is quickly approaching generation capacity. Currently it is really tough for the POCOs to build new plants (with environmental regulations and the overall cost of a new plant) so they need to figure out how to make the current system go further.

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer. You do this through 1) more accurate billing and 2) TOU billing (charge the customer more when it costs more to make the power).

Lazy, rich people will change absolutely nothing and throw a lot of unnecessary money away. Smart people (regardless of income) will change some habits (turn lights off when leaving a room, program washing machine/dishwasher/etc to run at night, turn up the thermostat a couple of degrees in the summer) or start to look at alternative power sources.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.
--
Everyone should own a Mac! Go Bucks!


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by Fronkman:

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Who is paying the incentives and tax rebates? Aren't you passing the part of the cost of your system on to others? There is nothing without a cost to someone.


mackey

join:2007-08-20
kudos:6

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Fronkman:

The bottom line approach is to more efficiently pass along the generation costs to the customer.

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Who is paying the incentives and tax rebates? Aren't you passing the part of the cost of your system on to others? There is nothing without a cost to someone.

Not necessarily. Some states, such as Pennsylvania, mandate that a certain percentage of power is generated by "alternate" sources. If a power company does not maintain that percentage then they are heavily fined. It may in fact be cheaper for the power companies to pay small incentives to people to install solar/wind then it is for them to build the farms themselves.

/M


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by mackey:

Not necessarily. Some states, such as Pennsylvania, mandate that a certain percentage of power is generated by "alternate" sources. If a power company does not maintain that percentage then they are heavily fined. It may in fact be cheaper for the power companies to pay small incentives to people to install solar/wind then it is for them to build the farms themselves.

/M

POCO incentives make sense but tax rebates? To force all taxpayers to pay a select few to install alternative power sources is a stretch. I would not expect (or want) others paying their taxes to contribute anything toward a project like that.

Now if the government chose those living below the poverty line and having trouble paying their utilities then it might be viable to install whole systems, but to give to those of us well able to pay our own way.........

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
·callwithus
reply to Fronkman

said by Fronkman:

Personally, we will be going the route of PV with a new system scheduled to be installed this month. The system will be capable of generating our total monthly power usage during most months (we don't use much power, about 250-300 kWh /month for a family of 3) and will knock down our bill in the July and August. Based on power costs and the various incentives and tax rebates, it will pay for itself in 1.75 years.

Wow, excellent payback! Please share the details of that system.

As for the political side, big gubbmint always incentivizes things it wants us to do, and in some cases that happens to be a good thing. I'd say this is one of those cases.

As I'm likely going to be building a new house soon I'm really interested in this stuff, too.