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Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
reply to Snuffbox

Re: Vivendi to discuss sale of Activision Blizzard...

you obviously missed my point if you think i'm advocating that they "balance" anything but endgame. i'm saying they made a decision to unbalance 60 70 80 and soon 85. breaking them.

i'm also saying that it's NOT a financial decision to cater to old expansion end-game... because it was already done at the end of each expansion. All they have to do is NOT try to balance the old game around the new expansion (which is actually more work and limits players options)... that's really what's happening here...

that's the only true financially poor decision. they keep tweaking old hat by reducing xp, reducing mob strength, changing talent tree intended to be endgame but then overpowers you in the earlier levels, on and on... instead of what they really should be doing which is limiting an expansion to an "actual" expansion. you know, added content.

they could even start right now at the end of cata by not changing anything. any toon below 85 plays with cata mechanics/talents/whatever. when you ding 86 "WELCOME TO MISTS." you get a new fancy talent tree. here are some new fancy mechanics.... blah blah blah

that is a design decision that they made that turned what could have been 4 endgame contents into 1 endgame by just keeping them separate you don't have to worry about balance because that was done as best as they could during each expansion.

... had they keep it this way it might have felt fragmented at each expansion transition... but there would be more options.

right now leveling. i'd not be solo bwd at level. the best dps spec for wouldn't be the one you get your first aoe in... most of the time that's your tank spec. you tanks wouldn't do 50% of your groups damage. while a dps that doesn't get his aoe till lv 45 can barely do anything. you'd not be a perfectly fine tank as long as your in plate.

they messed with old stuff so much it's meaningless. why do you even have lvl 1-60 anymore? what is the skilling of running in a groups and mashing one button over and over again... and having 10 times more threat than anyone.


stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS
So you'd like them to keep old talent systems until you hit the first level of the new expansion?

...

really? It would be more work to do such a thing. Plus, you'd have to factor in the learning curve of all the new players, who are leveling. Before Cataclysm, low levels generally didn't have their "signature" ability - the one you get with your specialization now - until 30-40. Talk about your one-button spamming. Then there's "hit 61 - all talents change. Rechoose them". And again at 71. At 81, choose your spec and more talents. At 86, everything changes again.

It can be tough enough when an expansion comes around, and with the speed you level, changing the whole way your class is played would drive people away. It would also minimize the time one gets to be familiar with one's class.

1-60 is still there because you need time to get familiar with your class, and learn its abilities. Skipping levels adds up to more clueless noobs at max level who have no idea how to play their class.

said by Gains:

right now leveling. i'd not be solo bwd at level. the best dps spec for wouldn't be the one you get your first aoe in... most of the time that's your tank spec. you tanks wouldn't do 50% of your groups damage. while a dps that doesn't get his aoe till lv 45 can barely do anything. you'd not be a perfectly fine tank as long as your in plate.

...I have no clue what you're talking about here.
--
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.


Liver

join:2011-09-13
GU12
reply to Savant
What would be good is if Blizzard opened up a lvl 60 / 70 / 80 server that played on the relivant version of wow at that time. Maybe have a subscription charge for all 3 previous versions £10 per month for all 3. I agree bringing back old content would be alot of fun.

Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
reply to stonhinge
could have worded that better.

right now... because of changes that they have done either purposefully or consequentially to old content

-pretty much any class can tank, except clothies.
-you're group steamrolls dungeons, which really teaches players nothing except what to expect.
-you're way overpowered or the mobs are so nerfed that you feel that way.
-some class could literally solo every 5 man dungeon, up until UBRS at the appropriate level. I know i could on my pally.
-tanks will be top damage dealers for those low level. by spamming a few buttons... swipe, righteousness, heart strike, or cleave
-they decided to change old content to aoe and go... some classes get late aoes... and will only be able to dps at a way lower levels than other dps.

these are kinda what i meant there.


stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS
They didn't change old content to AoE and go - the changes to the classes and the addition of heirlooms turned it into that. Form a group that has no heirlooms at all - quest items and dungeon drops - and try and blitz through an on-level dungeon. Of course, the reitemized quest rewards help out some, but it won't be as easy as it is when you have 3-4 pieces of heirloom armor, heirloom weapon, and 2 trinkets. You normally wouldn't see a trinket until ~50, and those were generally not all that powerful.

Soloing dungeons on your pally? How many heirlooms did you have?

Also, top damage means nothing at any level below max. At low levels, people are still learning their class. Plus, most people don't care about top damage, as long as the dungeon gets finished, and douchebags don't bail when they do/don't get the drop they want off a specific boss.
--
When the ship lifts, all bills are paid. No regrets.

Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
said by stonhinge:

They didn't change old content to AoE and go - the changes to the classes and the addition of heirlooms turned it into that.

REALLY. I know what you're trying to say but i think you're giving heirlooms more credit for game design than the developers. It's kinda like the murder saying "I didn't shoot that person, my gun did"

4 heirlooms that is it... and i took them off when i was leveling last night. slapped on any old helm, shoulders, back and chest that that i had in my bags.. healing plate, agi mail, greens or blues it didn't matter. did not have a problem tanking AN last night. half of my non-heirloom gear is plate healing/dps anyways. i'm telling you it's not exactly the heirlooms, it's not exactly the class changes, it's not exactly the tank vengeance. it's not exactly the lucky random bonus buff x3. it's not that all of the instances have been tweaked, somethings in them DEFINITELY have. I'm saying every one of these changes were done by the developers and now it's just a shit storm of aoe.

it's not going to get better. they do it basically remove the challenge of every previous expansion. they think that "new" players aren't going to want to spend as much time going through classic, bc, and wotlk...they are going to wanna get straight 85. They don't want them to feel like they can't catch up.

half of my non-heirloom gear is plate healing/dps anyways. so this pally that i started to level up last week was a 29 twink from BC. hadn't logged on him since then. anyways, im getting him to 80 for hott.. at 75 now a week later. you actually level so fast you won't even see enough of the right gear. you'll definitely be needing on greens as you progress.. i've found myself replacing tank stuff with dps stuff.. just because stam difference... even replacing with healing items... or mail... at first i felt wrong about needing for that str/stam plate.. clearly it's for dps... but after loosing tank pieces to dps as i was leveling... the truth is if it's better it's better... you're going to outlevel then replace then vendor it in 2 hours anyways.... that tank ring that that dps just one over me was probably is an upgrade for their dps set too.


Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4

1 edit
said by Gains:

you obviously missed my point

No, I did not.

said by Gains:

i'm saying they made a decision to unbalance 60 70 80 and soon 85. breaking them.

No, they (Blizzard) did not.

The game is designed/coded/written in a way to accept changes. Blizzard did not "decide" to break previous content for the lols. They make a change to balance CURRENT end-game, and it inevitably affects ALL content. Please understand this point.

They do not deliberate to increase Ambush damage in end-game, and then also decide just for shits and giggles to increase Ambush damage at level 60 as well.... It's one in the same...

Again, this is where the disconnect is - WoW was engineered this way, it's ultimately what has allowed the game to last so long (their ability to make changes). It's intended, and yet again unavoidable.

said by Gains:

why do you even have lvl 1-60 anymore?

This is silly. Despite what you think, there are still new players to the game. And even old players that enjoy the leveling experience.

If 1-60 were removed, it would feel like less of an achievement reaching end-game.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
Another thing worth noting, Blizz did change the leveling experience by class, in that they restructured which spells you start with, and when you get your new abilities. In some respects, these are what "broke" older content... because Blizz didn't feel the need to retune every dungeon. Allowing these dungeons to be "broken" further assisted in achieving the goal of compressing the leveling experience so that as the max level continues to rise, the time it takes to level doesn't.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.

Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
reply to Snuffbox
"They do not deliberate to increase Ambush damage in end-game, and then also decide just for shits and giggles to increase Ambush damage at level 60 as well.... It's one in the same..."

Snuff this is what i'm talking about... that is the decision they made "one in the same" to allow their balancing of endgame to break lower levels. Do you think it is impossible for to balance end game without affecting anything else? I'm saying it's not impossible... they just don't do it that way. IF they wanted to increase ambush damage end-game(@ 85) they could do that without making it affect ambush damage for ever level from 1-84. They could have left it balanced at 60, 70, and 80... your basically saying is that it setup/engineered...that it's "easier" for them to make the changes with ONLY endgame levels in mind... and screw whatever it does to all lower content.

right now i play a human.. my human can not twirl like a blood elf... according to you its impossible because it's not engineered that way. I'm positive if they wanted to make me twirl like a blood elf that they could decide to do that. it just may not be easy.

just increased the damage that an 85 does with ambush vs just increasing ambush to improve damage at 85 to achieve balance at endgame. there you've just balanced endgame without breaking 60,70, and 80.

In the end it doesn't matter because basically during development of wotlk (BC was more a true expansion) they started making changes that completely affected all levels, essentially reducing the amount of content. I don't see this design decision being reversed or adjusted anytime soon. I imagine they will just keep cutting out content. The main cuts will probably be something like cutting bc 25%, wotlk by 30%, and cata 25%. Soon a level one will kill their first mob and ding 2 levels... and will have no understanding of the game until end content...until then they'll just mash they're aoe buttons.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
encounter design is based on available abilities and party compositions. Any change in player abilities made for an expansion necessitates rethinking dungeon encounters for that expansion to present the appropriate level of challenge for the new abilities. Meanwhile, the older content... that couldn't have possibly had the new abilities taken into account in their design... get "broken". You don't really want them to go back and redesign the older dungeons to take into account the new talent trees, do you?

What you are proposing is essentially keeping the expansions separate. If you roll a BE pally or DR shaman you start at lvl 58 in outland (because those racials/abilities could be game breaking in vanilla content). DKs would start at 60 so they can go straight to 68 in northrend without messing things up in BC zones. Worgen/Goblin start in their new zones at 75, then at 80 they get to move on to Cata zones.

For vanilla race/class combos... you start with the 51 talent tree until you hit WotLK and drop down to the 41 talent tree... then at 80 you get the 31 talent tree... then at 85 you get the MoP tree.

or

you redesign all of the dungeons/raids to account for any class changes/talent changes that might make old content less epic.

Almost sounds like Everquest before they got smart (far too late to do them much good). Blizzard wanted WoW to be one game. And I agree with them on that.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.

Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
race/class combos or new races really play a hardly any roll in breaking the old content.

DK basically do start at 60 after you get out of the dk quest at what 57-58 and go straight to outland.... but yeah they should.

new classes would for sure...

You're pretty much right on with what i'm talking about.

You might want one game with reblend of the old game that they put no effort into and the only content exist at endgame, but I'd like the multi-tiered, leveled, with more content game(s) where the new content is new but the old content still works.


Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4
reply to Gains
said by Gains:

that is the decision they made "one in the same" to allow their balancing of endgame to break lower levels. Do you think it is impossible for to balance end game without affecting anything else?

Again, you aren't grasping the whole picture.

Similarly, this topic is one of the main reasons Blizzard will not create a PvE Ambush, and a PvP Ambush.

Yes, it is possible for a developer to balance all previous expansions at once (ridiculous concept). But for WoW to do this, it would require astronomical changes to the the way the game has been written, and ultimately would rape what has allowed this game to stay current and succesful.


stonhinge
Premium
join:2003-07-28
Topeka, KS
it would also make every patch with a bugfix of some kind take much longer. And we'd be waiting twice as long for an expansion. Sorry, I had enough of almost a year of ICC, and the same for DS.

Gains, you're in the minority. Catering to a minority of your subscribers causes a business to lose parts - or even all - of the majority. They'll gladly lose $5000 a month in subs if they keep the other $165m. (Warning: Numbers were obtained from directly out of my asshole. Not responsible for inaccuracy. Or the slight odor.)

Granted, if they did Classic/BC/WotLK/Cata servers, I'm sure they'd get some people. Honestly, I expect 1-59 to be free2play sometime in the future. (Sorry, you gotta pay to raid.)