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jaa
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join:2000-06-13

jaa to KCrimson

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Re: FiOS Updates Speed.. What will CV do to counter?

How far behind is VerizonWiFi?

I think the reason most people choose Verizon or Optimum rarely has to do with an actual need for the speed differences. So I still believe the answer to the original question is they will do nothing.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

1 edit

KCrimson

Premium Member

said by jaa:

How far behind is VerizonWiFi?

I think the reason most people choose Verizon or Optimum rarely has to do with an actual need for the speed differences. So I still believe the answer to the original question is they will do nothing.

Its not about "need for speed" its about perceptions and sales points. There's no way to hide a 50% difference in internet speed between the two competing triple play bundles. Cablevision will likely HAVE to respond with either a REAL price freeze (or decrease) in the face of Verizon's increases OR upgrade their technology again. Either way the consumer benefits from the competition.

As for the Verizon Wifi question - I believe that the wifi access is like a "throw-in" in most consumers minds. The number of consumers that determine their package's value based upon wifi accessibility is likely on par with the number of wild bears spotted in New Jersey over the past few years. They exist, but I don't think many prospective home owners really research bear sightings before their purchase. Those techies and business types that REALLY see the most value from it can't be without it, and therefore also have 3G or 4G backup (or primary) already, the rest see if as I described - a nice "perk".
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
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join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy

MVM

Just my opinion, the people who care about speed tend to be techies and those that can get Fios already have it. The vast majority of users care that their connection works well and if they already have Broadband (and anyone who cares about speed probably already has broadband) and their connection works well, will stay with their provider. I doubt for most people speed means much if their connection is working well.
dm145
join:2009-12-12
Clifton, NJ

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They don't have to hide the speed differences since most subs don't look to begin with. Same goes for channel count on video side. They look at bottom line, who can give me service for less.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson

Premium Member

Both companies do a good job of injecting local ads into their competitors products - the typical consumers (of ALL types) will get the message - if they don't then the inconvenient salesperson will come ringing. I've already switched between the two companies several times (and FiOS has only been available in NYC for a few years). I'm ready to listen to CV, but if Vz offers me 75Mbps CV is going to have to sweeten the deal significantly.
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
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East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy

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I get the FIOS and OOL ads almost everyday and could not tell you what the speeds are for FIOS. If someone is looking to save money they will look at the prices, if someone wants a faster connection they will look at speed. The vast majority do not want to change anything and will barely look at the ads at all.

mack1951
Universal Soldier
join:2000-04-18
Bayonne, NJ

mack1951

Member

I agree the biggest thing that CV has going for them and VZ has against them is most people have had cable for years and won't go through the trouble of switching without a compelling reason, either price or speed or service. Think that is why FIOS stopped their expansion since getting people to switch was not as easy as they thought it would be and so their penetration is not what they hoped. While there are lots of people who would like to get FIOS and can't there are more who can get it but won't switch especially in CV areas where the service has always been better then say Comcast.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

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said by KCrimson:

The number of consumers that determine their package's value based upon wifi accessibility is likely on par with the number of wild bears spotted in New Jersey over the past few years.

...and on par with the number of people that choose a service for 75mbps over 50mbps, or News12, or quantity of channels, or ...
jaa

jaa to mack1951

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to mack1951
said by mack1951:

Think that is why FIOS stopped their expansion since getting people to switch was not as easy as they thought it would be and so their penetration is not what they hoped.

Exactly - and a few more mpbs that most people would not even notice is not going to change that.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson to jaa

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to jaa
said by jaa:

said by KCrimson:

The number of consumers that determine their package's value based upon wifi accessibility is likely on par with the number of wild bears spotted in New Jersey over the past few years.

...and the number of people that choose a service for 75mbps over 50mbps, or News12, or...

Perhaps News12 and internet speed - the products that DEFINE the service - but metropolitan Wifi is something that few customers actively "shop" their phone/TV/internet providers for. So, in summation - I disagree with the assertion that people will ignore such a significant difference in something they pay for. Whether they understand it or not, they know that bigger numbers are better.
frdrizzt
join:2008-05-03
Ronkonkoma, NY

frdrizzt

Member

said by KCrimson:

said by jaa:

said by KCrimson:

The number of consumers that determine their package's value based upon wifi accessibility is likely on par with the number of wild bears spotted in New Jersey over the past few years.

...and the number of people that choose a service for 75mbps over 50mbps, or News12, or...

Perhaps News12 and internet speed - the products that DEFINE the service - but metropolitan Wifi is something that few customers actively "shop" their phone/TV/internet providers for. So, in summation - I disagree with the assertion that people will ignore such a significant difference in something they pay for. Whether they understand it or not, they know that bigger numbers are better.

I don't know any numbers on people who have signed up for or retained service due to Optimum Wifi, but I do think you undermine the value people put in Optimum Wifi. If you were to take away Optimum Wif & give a free 50% speed boost, I'm sure people would be pissed off overall.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

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said by KCrimson:

metropolitan Wifi is something that few customers actively "shop" their phone/TV/internet providers for.

Do you have information to support that? CV and the other cable companies are investing heavily in this - both in deploying it and advertising. They believe that as the cell companies move to eliminate the unlimited plans, people will want wifi so they can stream video without exceeding their plans.

They could have increased speeds by doing network upgrades (including upstream channel bonding and node splits) rather than deploy optimum wifi. I would have thought such a large investment would have been supported by market research, but maybe CV, Comcast, and TWC all got it all wrong and you are right.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson

Premium Member

My only market research was personal experience, family and friends. Most of those people spend little if any time on Optimum WiFi, relying instead upon home WiFi and 4G/3G alternatives. I'm not an economist or network planner, but if that's true about putting off network upgrades and pursuing metro WiFi instead, then I WOULD second guess that investment. Earlier today I read a story from earlier this year about how CV's stock dipped over 10% after a restructuring - was this part of the cause?
frdrizzt
join:2008-05-03
Ronkonkoma, NY

frdrizzt

Member

CV has already moved everyone to newer CMTS', and the next step is getting rid of analog to open up additional bandwidth. It's not that they have to choose to add more wifi (a field operation) or changes to the CMTS (a head-end operation).

We probably will never know exactly why the various execs that left did.

Optimum Wifi is a great thing when you see it on your phone/PC in a place you frequently go to, but don't have your own connection/an unlimited data package. Just seeing the SSID daily is a nice advertisement to the service.

aannonn
@optonline.net

aannonn to frdrizzt

Anon

to frdrizzt
said by frdrizzt:

I do think you undermine the value people put in Optimum Wifi.

It's nice to have, but I find it's rarely available where I want it, and when it is available, it's broken 20% of the time.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

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to KCrimson
said by KCrimson:

My only market research was personal experience, family and friends. Most of those people spend little if any time on Optimum WiFi, relying instead upon home WiFi and 4G/3G alternatives. I'm not an economist or network planner, but if that's true about putting off network upgrades and pursuing metro WiFi instead, then I WOULD second guess that investment. Earlier today I read a story from earlier this year about how CV's stock dipped over 10% after a restructuring - was this part of the cause?

Give them a call - maybe you could bring them your market research and set them straight. I'm sure they pay good money for consultants.
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
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East Stroudsburg, PA

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said by KCrimson:

Earlier today I read a story from earlier this year about how CV's stock dipped over 10% after a restructuring - was this part of the cause?

Caveat! I am now a CV stock holder since I have been buying while the stock declined. I bought as it went down and added as it went lower. I will sell some as it goes up and buy more if it goes down or *back* down.

Also pretty soon I will not be a subscriber as I will be selling my house in the CV area and my new home is in a rural area none of the majors serve.

CV's stock has been going down because they are making Capital Investments to go all digital and bond more channels. They also did not have the normal price increases so that also had an effect. Most Stock holders in today's market are very short term oriented and care only about the next quarter's profit. CV actually added subscribers last quarter.

Since you seem to know more the industry executives about the role of wi-fi in customer retention, you might want to read

»www.fiercewireless.com/s ··· -05-05-0

and the more recent piece where most of the major cable providers are moving to expand their wi-fi offering because of CV success with wi-fi.

»www.cedmagazine.com/arti ··· perators

and if you want a very recent, pretty good article on marketing at CV

»online.wsj.com/article/S ··· 824.html

Edit sorry it seems you need to be a subscriber to read the last one unless you go through google

»www.google.com/url?sa=t& ··· &cad=rja

KCrimson
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join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson to jaa

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to jaa
said by jaa:

Give them a call - maybe you could bring them your market research and set them straight. I'm sure they pay good money for consultants.

Thanks for the suggestion, I know it was an earnest attempt to raise my income, and not some snarky comment that would discourage others to dare state their opinions.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

jaa

Premium Member

You are welcome. Based on Wiseguy's post, the person to contact is Kristin Dolan, Senior Executive VP of product management and marketing, 22-year industry veteran, and wife of CEO.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

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said by TheWiseGuy:

Since you seem to know more the industry executives about the role of wi-fi in customer retention



I'm really disinterested in your investment strategy, and Cablevision's WiFi offering as well. Thanks for the links, we've strayed far from the points in my original post. It seems to me that there's a special formula Kool-Aide brewing here, one whose flavor profile eludes me.
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
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I figured I would explain a little why you might not see Wi-Fi as an asset when you discuss it with people and find most are not interested but executives see value in wi-fi.

Cv has 3 Million data subscribers. When they purchased Bresnan each overall subscriber was valued at $4,400. So if you value a subscriber at around 4k and you put $30 Million into Wi-Fi you only need less about .0025% (or about 1 in 400) or 7500 subscribers to find value in wi-fi and stay with CV for it to be a good investment. Now the value of a east coast CV subscriber is probably a lot higher since the cash flow per subscriber is about twice that of the Bresnan subscriber, so you would need even less as far as retention to add value.

However, in a teleconference Monday, Rutledge said Cablevision generates more than $450 per home per year while Bresnan’s cash flow is roughly $200 less.

Read more: »billingsgazette.com/news ··· xrfWijVY

TheWiseGuy

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said by KCrimson:

said by TheWiseGuy:

Since you seem to know more the industry executives about the role of wi-fi in customer retention



I'm really disinterested in your investment strategy, and Cablevision's WiFi offering as well. Thanks for the links, we've strayed far from the points in my original post. It seems to me that there's a special formula Kool-Aide brewing here, one whose flavor profile eludes me.

I am glad you do not care about my investment strategy. I felt I should give full disclosure that I own shares, but hey whatever.

The topic has veered because you seem to think what is important to you, speed, is what is important to most people and that what you find when talking to people you know is good evidence of what most people want. I learned a long time ago that there are many more segments to any market then the one I am in, that a company needs to serve the different market segments that it decides to compete in and not try and serve every segment.

KCrimson
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Brooklyn, NY

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Thanks for re-grounding the level of the conversation. I'm sure there's some future value that CV will gain from their WiFi investment, but I'm still not convinced that its going to assuage many potential converts or new customers when they compare the overall offerings in the areas that both CV and Vz serve. Instead, I'm interested in seeing how the companies compete in internet bandwidth and HD channel offerings.
TheWiseGuy
Dog And Butterfly
MVM
join:2002-07-04
East Stroudsburg, PA

TheWiseGuy

MVM

I am sure without upgrading their upload speed they will lose some % of customers, what percent is debatable. CV will have to estimate how many customers they will lose, the value of those customers and the cost to upgrade the Upstream to keep those customers. They will also have to look at whether they are simply moving up Capital Costs versus making extra investments, By moving up the all digital conversion, they do put themselves in a better position to do upstream bonding earlier if they decide to do Upstream Bonding.

The all digital conversion will give them greater channel capacity which can be used for both more data channels and more TV channels.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

jaa to KCrimson

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said by KCrimson:

I'm interested in seeing how the companies compete in internet bandwidth and HD channel offerings.

That is you. Being a member of DSLR makes you a one very small market segment - probably more interested in technology than other segments. But for the other 2.99 million subscribers there may be different priorities - News12, WiFi, phone features, etc.

They are making investments to address as many segements as possible. My guess is serving people with bandwidth needs in excess of 100/15 is probably not too high on the list: high investment, high cost of service for a small segment not likely to pay much over $100/mo - no ROI. They will probably just cede that segment to Verizon in the limited areas where they overlap for the time being.

Sometimes people running a company just may know a little about the business and their customers.

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson

Premium Member

said by jaa:

1 - My guess is serving people with bandwidth needs in excess of 100/15 is probably not too high on the list

2 - Sometimes people running a company just may know a little about the business and their customers.

Pardon the numerical additions to the quoted portions of your last post, but its easier that way to address each issue at once (less html).

1 - That was never my point. I'm not interested in, and never addressed that portion of the market. I focused my initial comments on the triple play installs - Verizon is now going to be installing 50 and 75 Mbps triple play packages, and without a rolling out something new, even technologically impaired prospects will see that 75 > 50.

2 - They know a lot about the business and their customers, but if they were 100% right then I, and a sizable number (if not majority) of my neighbors wouldn't be FiOS customers.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

jaa

Premium Member

CV offers 100/15 as part of triple play. They also offer iO Silver and iO Gold, and any other service people want.

No company is all things to all people. IMHO, their strategy (based on market research and seasoned industry executives) is much more likely to be a better approach than that of an armchair quaterback and anecdotal information.

CV continues to add subscribers. VZ has pretty much stopped their rollout of FIOS.

By your own post, you are not even sure if a majority of your neighbors have FIOS - probably means CV has larger market share even in your microcosm.

aannoonn
@optonline.net

aannoonn

Anon

said by jaa:

CV offers 100/15 as part of triple play.

Not here they don't. The triple play junk mail Cablevision sends me every two weeks says it's 20/2, and that costs $99.85 plus taxes and the cost of boxes. (Also note the $89.85 triple play is gone.)

KCrimson
Premium Member
join:2001-02-25
Brooklyn, NY

KCrimson to jaa

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to jaa
said by jaa:

1 - CV offers 100/15 as part of triple play. They also offer iO Silver and iO Gold, and any other service people want.

2 - IMHO, their strategy (based on market research and seasoned industry executives) is much more likely to be a better approach than that of an armchair quaterback and anecdotal information.

3 - CV continues to add subscribers. VZ has pretty much stopped their rollout of FIOS.

4 - By your own post, you are not even sure if a majority of your neighbors have FIOS - probably means CV has larger market share even in your microcosm.

1 - Do you get PAID by Cablevision to defend their products here? You seem to have SOMETHING invested, if not your savings or livelihood, then your ego for SURE. I've repeatedly stated that I'm not interested in the fastest tiers that either company sells, but rather typical triple play installs. FiOS also packages even the 150 tier into a triple play bundle - I'm not talking about $200/mo packages that few will order.

2. We go back to your ego being hurt again - I mean why redouble your efforts to label my observations as "armchair quarterback and anecdotal information"?

3. How exactly does FiOS's ceased rollout beyond their current areas have ANYTHING to do with what we've been discussing. We're talking about areas where they currently compete. That WAS this basis of everything I've discussed. Its quite obvious that Verizon takes that area quite seriously if they're now going to be offering up unprecedented 300 Mbps broadband within that footprint.

4. I haven't knocked on every door when I go walk my dog Junior, I simply observe ONT's (where visible - many homes have them mounted in the backyard). I see somewhere over half of the homes have visible ONT's here in Mill Basin Brooklyn. That doesn't take into account those that aren't currently active (former FiOS customers) but doesn't include the backyard ONT's either. I KNOW that of my IMMEDIATE neighbors, I'm aware of 4 of them - all have FiOS. Its not scientific, but I'm quite sure that Verizon's market penetration here in Mill Basin is higher than the average area (as is disposable income) that Verizon and Cablevision both serve.

5. I was going to let you get away with that last snarky comment - leaving the business address of Dolan's wife in your last posting addressed to me, but now this. You're "dropping drawers" here - letting everyone see your Cablevision cheerleading panties. I've got no "team" here. I've been a customer of BOTH companies REPEATEDLY, the only side I cheer for offers me better service at reduced prices.

jaa
Premium Member
join:2000-06-13

1 edit

jaa

Premium Member

Exactly my point - you think noticing a few ont's in your neighborhood means something when developing product and marketing plans.

CV offers whatever triple play the customer wants - $100 plus the price differential between the base products and the enhanced products the customer wants. Design your own triple play - they don't bother creating all the possible permutations and spelling out the price. You still get the new subscriber discount.

I have never worked for CV or owned their stock.

I do find it quite amusing to see all the fios people that can't seem to move on. Why would someone with fios, presumably a better product for them than CV, even be posting here?? Amusing, nonetheless. Do you get paid by VZ to troll forums of competing products??

There is absolutely no question CV is a far superior choice for me.

VZ has halted fios rollout to high-income area - so apparently your supposed high estimate of their penetration in your affluent area is lost on them. Or maybe the penetration is not as high as you think.

You should give Dolan's wife a call. She is head of product development and marketing, and I'm sure she would appreciate you expertise and market research - you could set her straight on how to compete with fios.