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Viper677
Certified Home Inspector

join:2012-03-22
Toronto
reply to bemis

Re: Water Heater Brand Recommendations

said by bemis:

I had 5 people stay over the house a couple of months ago. The 40 gallon tank provided HW for everyone to shower in the morning. I'd say it was about 1 to 1-1/2 hours of use over a 2 to 2-1/2 hour period with about 15 minutes between each user. Who is in the shower for more than 15 minutes anyway?

I do keep the WH set at 135* which I think helps because the ratio of hot-cold at the shower head is more biased to cold the hotter your water is.

You try doing that for a week and then tell us about your electric bill I bet, both elements were working full throttle during that time period that you mentioned.

oh, BTW, I very often take 30 min showers


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to bemis
said by bemis:

I have an electric Whirlpool 40G from Lowes. It was $238. I installed it myself, seems to be as well constructed, from the outside, as any other I've seen.

It's only been installed 6 months, so I have no idea about the longevity. If it's still leak-free in 6 years I'll be happy, and I'll also be surprised that I'm still in my current home

I have the same thing. If it fails I'll just replace it myself. Takes an hour or two and good to go.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to Viper677
said by Viper677:

said by bemis:

I had 5 people stay over the house a couple of months ago. The 40 gallon tank provided HW for everyone to shower in the morning. I'd say it was about 1 to 1-1/2 hours of use over a 2 to 2-1/2 hour period with about 15 minutes between each user. Who is in the shower for more than 15 minutes anyway?

I do keep the WH set at 135* which I think helps because the ratio of hot-cold at the shower head is more biased to cold the hotter your water is.

You try doing that for a week and then tell us about your electric bill I bet, both elements were working full throttle during that time period that you mentioned.

oh, BTW, I very often take 30 min showers

A few extra guests every now and then won't make much difference. Only one 4500 watt element can operate at a time so the cost for me would be about $0.45/hr continuous.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
reply to Jack_in_VA
Click for full size
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by jack b:

While the blogger is interjecting his own thoughts, the study authors and the results themselves don't have any axe to grind. It's just data. (91 page pdf)

Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.

Yes it is.. Here's some more..
--
Hey There, Voter! Do you remember that on Inauguration Day (Jan 20th) 2009, the national average for a gallon of gasoline was about $1.78? How's that "Hope & Change" working out for you? Anyone But Obama Nov. 2012.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
said by Jack_in_VA:

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

Depends on what assumptions are used about the price of electricity and the usage and habits of an average family. Again... too many variables.

I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.

This is exactly what I said when I put one of these in a rental unit that I own. Then again... I'm not heating hot water with it..


IowaCowboy
Iowa native
Premium
join:2010-10-16
Springfield, MA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon Broadban..
·Comcast
reply to QuaffAPint
Our water heater is a Whirlpool that the former landlord (building sold to new landlord) bought a Lowe's back in 2003. It's a 50 gallon electric that has not given us any problems (knock wood) other than it is expensive to run. If you are looking at gas, get one with an electronic ignition so you are not paying for gas to fuel a pilot light.

At the house I grew up in back in Iowa, our water heater failed the year of the great midwest floods of 1993 (not because of the floods, but from the water heater reaching end of life) and the landlord had to locate one that would fit in a tight space (inside a pegboard enclosure in the kitchen). She had to special order it and water heaters were in short supply due to the widespread flooding and water heaters being destroyed by flooded basements.

People who were selfish would try to donate their flooded water heaters to the local Goodwill along with soaked carpet (during the midwest floods of 1993) because they did not want to pay disposal costs. Unfortunately the disposal costs had to be picked up by Goodwill and that eats into the money that could be spent on their cause of providing job training and work for people with special needs.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
reply to Jack_in_VA
Click for full size
said by Jack_in_VA:

Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.

Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.

You are kidding? Right? Most of us are going to post anything to put anything we think, do or buy in a positive light. You would take that as absolutely accurate over the tests performed with the results detailed on the website? Sometimes what we think is not necessarily factual.

Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less.

You are kidding? Right? You didn't like my "sales promo".. Well

Look again at the above clip page 6 (YOUR data summary) in your "documentation" "It's just data. (91 page pdf)"

Can you see the 37% savings? That 37% is the bottom line but it can be offset by initial tankless cost. Right? That initial cost can be estimated all over the place as they have done in the 91 page paper to reach their summation that there is little or no gain.

Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages that they put in a credit for floor space as in tank vs tankless? The building SF costs here put that number at around $1000 up front..

Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages where they calculated for hydronic space heat in conjunction with the HW? That factor right there would tip the annual cost scales way in favor of tankless. I've done that in my own home installation and I can post my last winter NG bill for the coldest month of $56 if you desire.

Now tell me again about those "absolutely accurate" detailed tests in the 91 pages..

--
Hey There, Voter! Do you remember that on Inauguration Day (Jan 20th) 2009, the national average for a gallon of gasoline was about $1.78? How's that "Hope & Change" working out for you? Anyone But Obama Nov. 2012.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
So I could achieve a 37 percent savings on my $135/mo electric bill? Space charge inside house is N/A in my case.

Then I would only have the $4.35/gal propane cost plus the expensive tank-less heater to deal with.

All that for a problem that doesn't exist for my wife and I.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
Yep, way too many variables to compare tankless vs tank in all situations. Yours is a good example, tankless using electric is probably unfeasible unless you live next to a hydroelectric dam with rates under 5 cents a KWH.

Propane is expensive because of the monopoly with only a few gas companies having access to supplies. The spot price in Mont Belvieu, TX this week is about 75 cents a gallon where they have millions of gallons of excess propane stored in salt caverns. They burned propane off for years because of no place to store it.

Propane in VA shouldn't cost over $1.25 a gallon tops with truck transport costs plus a decent profit. At 4.27 pounds per gallon a semi transport can carry 11,000 gallons. But because of regulations and monopolies we are all screwed. I paid $2.59 a gallon the other day for LPG motor fuel from my buddy and a had few bottles filled.

I blame it on lobbyists and politicians..

--
Hey There, Voter! Do you remember that on Inauguration Day (Jan 20th) 2009, the national average for a gallon of gasoline was about $1.78? How's that "Hope & Change" working out for you? Anyone But Obama Nov. 2012.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
The sad thing is we as consumers can't do a damn thing about it.

I don't even run my propane free standing Buck Stove because it's just too expensive.

Aranarth

join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to QuaffAPint
I have a Rinnai tankless hot water heater.

Works really well, hot water for as long as you need it once the hot water starts coming out the tap.

I have had the dishwasher, washing machine, kids taking a bath and me having a shower all at the same time. Hot water was not an issue.


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

You're on a budget plan.

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
reply to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.

Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.

You are kidding? Right? Most of us are going to post anything to put anything we think, do or buy in a positive light. You would take that as absolutely accurate over the tests performed with the results detailed on the website? Sometimes what we think is not necessarily factual.

Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less.

You are kidding? Right? You didn't like my "sales promo".. Well

Look again at the above clip page 6 (YOUR data summary) in your "documentation" "It's just data. (91 page pdf)"

Can you see the 37% savings? That 37% is the bottom line but it can be offset by initial tankless cost. Right? That initial cost can be estimated all over the place as they have done in the 91 page paper to reach their summation that there is little or no gain.

Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages that they put in a credit for floor space as in tank vs tankless? The building SF costs here put that number at around $1000 up front..

Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages where they calculated for hydronic space heat in conjunction with the HW? That factor right there would tip the annual cost scales way in favor of tankless. I've done that in my own home installation and I can post my last winter NG bill for the coldest month of $56 if you desire.

Now tell me again about those "absolutely accurate" detailed tests in the 91 pages..

take notice they are comparing a water heater with 60% efficiency to something much higher, try that with a 90% efficiency power vented, and very well insulated water heater!. they are so insulated, they may come on once for a few minutes each day without water usage. my separate, indirect water heater supplied from my oil fired boiler does that!. tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water, it's only the loss that is much greater on an inefficient tank heater that's different. heating water quickly or slowly still takes the same amount of energy to heat to a specified temperature, although the tankless requires a HUGE amount of energy for a short time, which requires a very large electric feed, or a large propane tank and lines and regulator, or large nat gas lines.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
said by iknow:

tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water

Nope.. Now think about that and explain the difference between heating water with hot gas under the vessel and exhausting the by-product up a flue in the middle of the tank (vessel) vs heating the water in a coil with the hot gas completely surrounding the water in the coil..

--
Hey There, Voter! Do you remember that on Inauguration Day (Jan 20th) 2009, the national average for a gallon of gasoline was about $1.78? How's that "Hope & Change" working out for you? Anyone But Obama Nov. 2012.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.

You're on a budget plan.

True but it can go up or down depending on usage


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
reply to tp0d
i've been looking at the vertex, and i swear there is literature that states the 100kbtu version has 2 anodes, but the manuals only point to one. that, and i have no idea if it's 2' or 3' of clearance i would need to replace it/them.

sigh.
--
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.


QuaffAPint
A Big Thanks To The Troops

join:2001-01-10
Downingtown, PA
reply to Aranarth
Thanks for the recommendations. I think I'll give my plumber company that I have a contract with and see what they offer and cost. Looks like the box stores have a limited selection and only 6 yr guarantees.
--
{Send Secure Notes Free and Easily} :: whisperBot.com

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
reply to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:

said by iknow:

tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water

Nope.. Now think about that and explain the difference between heating water with hot gas under the vessel and exhausting the by-product up a flue in the middle of the tank (vessel) vs heating the water in a coil with the hot gas completely surrounding the water in the coil..

here is a good high efficiency water heater, »www.americanwaterheater.com/prod···0908.pdf where, do you see that??. yes, with those 60% efficiency models, there is a big loss, but not with the power vented, 90+ efficiency models!. and they use about 3" of foam insulation to cut standby losses, too!.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
Nice try anyway.. That polaris high efficiency coil (which is what I pointed out in tankless) stainless steel HWH in your link cost about double or triple of a tankless.. Well over $4000 for that baby..

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
said by macsierra8:

Nice try anyway.. That polaris high efficiency coil (which is what I pointed out in tankless) stainless steel HWH in your link cost about double or triple of a tankless.. Well over $4000 for that baby..

try this one. »www.americanwaterheater.com/prod···1110.pdf i can't find the price on it though.


macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
Premium
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
Here ya go.. Only $5895.31 on a deal $8500 retail

»www.amazon.com/American-Water-He···4&sr=1-2


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:

Propane is expensive because of the monopoly with only a few gas companies having access to supplies. The spot price in Mont Belvieu, TX this week is about 75 cents a gallon where they have millions of gallons of excess propane stored in salt caverns. They burned propane off for years because of no place to store it.

Propane in VA shouldn't cost over $1.25 a gallon tops with truck transport costs plus a decent profit. At 4.27 pounds per gallon a semi transport can carry 11,000 gallons. But because of regulations and monopolies we are all screwed. I paid $2.59 a gallon the other day for LPG motor fuel from my buddy and a had few bottles filled.

That's interesting as I look at propane as pretty cheap energy. I don't have natural gas available.... Oil hovered around $4/gallon for most of the winter.... electricity in CT was expensive (and problematic as CL&P had their infamous double meltdown last fall).

But me... my propane came in at a high price of $2.288/gal and low price of $2.125/gal over the winter. Correcting for btu differences in the fuels... propane comes out ahead by a wide margin and is the most versatile as I can run a wide variety of devices in including a backup generator.

It's all in perspective I guess... propane is the least expensive here in eastern CT at this time.