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alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to ropeguru

Re: Basement

»www.doerken.de/bvf-ca-en/contact···hp?id=VA

quote:
DELTA®-FL can be special ordered at your local Lowe's store. Special order number is 132387
It doesn't say anything for the MS, but I'm betting that if Lowe's can get FL, it can get MS.


workablob

join:2004-06-09
Houston, TX
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Comcast
reply to miakica

said by miakica:

I started renovating my basement about 6 months ago.
Here is the work done....

Very Nice Work!!!!

Dave


ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA
reply to alkizmo

Thanks...


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Jim

said by Jim:

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but an inspector would probably tell you that that handrail has to return to the wall (top and bottom). I suppose you could terminate it at a post at the bottom. Are you planning on some sort of railing on the open side?

There are two separate issues with the hand rail. One is "Does it go far enough? and the other is "Should the handrail return to the wall". The pic you posted shows how a handrail could end in a post which would solve the first problem. Personally I'm not sure what code requires in this regard but I believe that the handrail is supposed to go as far as the bottom riser.

The second issue is that the ends of the handrail end in free space. The ends of a handrail are supposed to return to the wall. This is to prevent loose clothing or something like a purse strap from being able to catch on the free end of the handrail. Basically you are supposed to miter the end of the rail and glue on a small piece which returns to the wall.

Personally, I don't think it would look bad if the rail continued past the wall as far as the bottom riser, then returned back to the end wall (basically think of the handrail ending in a U shape going past the wall, ending in a piece with a miter on both ends and then a short piece returning to the wall of the hallway next to the stairs). This would take care of both problems. At the upper end, the rail should also return to the wall with a mitered piece added to the end.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to Ken

said by Ken:

I have seen a lot of stairs where the bottom step or two extends out past where the railing stops, but they always have a curved step. I guess the curved step makes it safer?

As I stated in my previous post, I believe the handrail is supposed to extend as far as the bottom riser. Looking at the pic you posted it seems that one way to achieve this is by having the bottom riser return to the handrail instead of the handrail extending to the bottom riser. I don't think it would matter if the bottom step was square or curved, although a square step may create problems with even tread size depending on how an inspector viewed the issue. It would still achieve the same. One reason it makes it safer is that someone who needs the handrail for support can use the end of the step where the handrail is easily reachable for their first or last step.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to robbin

said by robbin:

The second issue is that the ends of the handrail end in free space. The ends of a handrail are supposed to return to the wall.

See that's what I don't get.
If he extends the rail with a post, why would it need to return to the wall?

If you google "stair handrail" you'll see plenty of examples where it doesn't return to the wall, no reason to do so:

Exibit RAIL



Though, in my opinion, it would have been better if the handrail was on the open side of the stairs, like in the picture above.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1

It does not need to return to the wall if it ends in a post. Normally posts are used when you are installing a handrail on the open side of the stairs. When installing a handrail on the closed, wall side is when it is supposed to return to the wall. In the OP's case, they installed the handrail on the wall side but did not return it to the wall and also did not extend it as far as the bottom riser.



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8

said by robbin:

When installing a handrail on the closed, wall side is when it is supposed to return to the wall.

Correct.

This is to prevent clothes from catching on the exposed end and causing a fall down the stairs.

And that is also why I suggested extending the wall on the closed side...to meet the requirement to extend the handrail.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to alkizmo

said by alkizmo:

See that's what I don't get.
If he extends the rail with a post, why would it need to return to the wall?

If you google "stair handrail" you'll see plenty of examples where it doesn't return to the wall, no reason to do so:

Exibit RAIL

Though, in my opinion, it would have been better if the handrail was on the open side of the stairs, like in the picture above.

It would be easy and cost effective for the OP to install the rail on the open side which would look better and solve his problem of 6 steps on that side open with out a railing. That would make the rail on the wall side work perfectly.

The image you posted is a perfect example.

robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to John Galt

said by John Galt:

And that is also why I suggested extending the wall on the closed side...to meet the requirement to extend the handrail.

Looking at the pics again, I am starting to wonder if a railing and ballasters are not required due to the height on the open side. I think you need them if it is over 30" high.

Even if that were installed though, the current railing needs to be modified so that it returns to the wall top and bottom.

Viper677
Certified Home Inspector

join:2012-03-22
Toronto
reply to miakica

Now I blame myself for bringing up that handrail issue.
--
Certified Home Inspector



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to miakica

Google sites and the image alkizmo posted do not even show a rail on the wall when the open side has a bannister and the stair section ends on a landing as the images show.

Call your building inspector and get an opinion. Perhaps you can just remove the railing in question and make the stairs safer by installing a bannister on the open side(s)



mr_slick

join:2003-05-22
Lynnwood, WA
reply to Ken

said by Ken:

I have seen a lot of stairs where the bottom step or two extends out past where the railing stops, but they always have a curved step. I guess the curved step makes it safer?

This is what I'm talking about...
[att=1]

yes, but in your pic the wall extends past the last step. that is my safety concern (that the OP's step sticks out past the wall and someone could easily trip over it when walking perpendicular to it).


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to robbin

said by robbin:

said by Ken:

I have seen a lot of stairs where the bottom step or two extends out past where the railing stops, but they always have a curved step. I guess the curved step makes it safer?

As I stated in my previous post, I believe the handrail is supposed to extend as far as the bottom riser. Looking at the pic you posted it seems that one way to achieve this is by having the bottom riser return to the handrail instead of the handrail extending to the bottom riser. I don't think it would matter if the bottom step was square or curved, although a square step may create problems with even tread size depending on how an inspector viewed the issue. It would still achieve the same. One reason it makes it safer is that someone who needs the handrail for support can use the end of the step where the handrail is easily reachable for their first or last step.

Our stairs extend past the rail and they don't return to the bottom riser at all. I have a picture everything else in the house but I never thought I'd need a picture of the stairs. I'll try to take one and post it later.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to Viper677

said by Viper677:

Now I blame myself for bringing up that handrail issue.

No need to torment yourself about it. I was going to bring it up, too. You just beat me to it.

Taking a header down the stairs is usually a bad thing.


PSWired

join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD

1 recommendation

reply to miakica

Well I sure hope you railing sticklers don't visit Philly, you wouldn't be able to get into the art museum!




Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by PSWired:

Well I sure hope you railing sticklers don't visit Philly, you wouldn't be able to get into the art museum!

Oh God PS I hope you haven't stoked the fire more.


PSWired

join:2006-03-26
Annapolis, MD



Sorry, miakica...

Nice work on the basement, by the way.



John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to PSWired

said by PSWired:

Well I sure hope you railing sticklers don't visit Philly, you wouldn't be able to get into the art museum!

[att=1]

Handrails not required...

Viper677
Certified Home Inspector

join:2012-03-22
Toronto
reply to John Galt

I was going to bring it up, too.

Seriously dude?
--
Certified Home Inspector


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

I think we ruined Miakica's satisfaction for his basement renovation.

Miakica, your basement looks sweet. If you're satisfied with the hand rail, leave it be.

If you were going to sell your house, the house inspector would just say "Needs a better rail here". If the buyer is not a douchebag and really wants your house, he wont care.

My basement stairs had NO RAIL when I bought it. Who gives a crap? I'll fix it sometime, some day. No 75 years old lives in my house, and my son is going to break his face, hand rail or not!



whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to PSWired

Click for full size
said by PSWired:

Well I sure hope you railing sticklers don't visit Philly, you wouldn't be able to get into the art museum!

Yeah, Philly is messed up. The building department inspectors probably took some money under the table to let the art museum slide on that. In NYC, our post office steps have compliant hand-rails!

Viper677
Certified Home Inspector

join:2012-03-22
Toronto

said by whizkid3:

said by PSWired:

Well I sure hope you railing sticklers don't visit Philly, you wouldn't be able to get into the art museum!

Yeah, Philly is messed up. The building department inspectors probably took some money under the table to let the art museum slide on that. In NYC, our post office steps have compliant hand-rails!

I think for buildings likes these, the handrail rules does not totally apply. These 'might' be considered as a 'ramp' instead of actual stairs - for the purpose of handrail rules.

I should not be even make a comment about commercial buildings because I dont do commercial inspections but this is just my uneducated guess.

But yeah, like someone else mentioned here, the basement work published here was a 'job well done'. And yes, If i would inspection this house, I would bring it up and include that in my report but will not make a big deal out of it. Any reasonable buyer would also let it go, no problems.
--
Certified Home Inspector


Nick_L
Premium
join:2003-01-22
Pittsburgh, PA
reply to miakica

can I ask why you built the walls on top of the floating floor (that is what it looks like to me, at least)?


robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to miakica

We've already discussed the handrail but I would like to ask what you had to do to get the stair risers to be the same. From looking at the pic the stairs were pre-existing and you appear to have raised the floor with a subfloor and hardwood. The reason that I ask is that we recently has a similar thread

»Adjusting Stairs

and there were problems with finishing out the existing stairs due to the height added when finishing out the basement floor. Did you have to do a lot of shimming? It appears form the pics you posted that you moved each stair riser out (larger tread) but the pics don't show what you had to do to install the oak treads on the old stairs in order to get everything to work out.



ropeguru
Premium
join:2001-01-25
Mechanicsville, VA
reply to Nick_L

said by Nick_L:

can I ask why you built the walls on top of the floating floor (that is what it looks like to me, at least)?

If he did it correctly, it really isn't a floating floor. After putting down the membrane and then the plywood, the plywood then gets screwed into the concrete floor just like you would secure to floor joists. So in essence it becomes a regular subfloor.


miakica

join:2009-11-10

1 edit
reply to miakica

Sorry, I was away, and didn't have internet access...

said by ropeguru:

Do you have the brand name off the receipt? It appears to me to be something like »www.deltams.ca/deltams_deltams.htm

It is Delta Membrane System...It is used as a foundation protection, but, since my house is 65 years old and basement floor is uneven, I used it on the floor. It worked perfect

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by Jim:

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but an inspector would probably tell you that that handrail has to return to the wall (top and bottom). I suppose you could terminate it at a post at the bottom. Are you planning on some sort of railing on the open side?

If he does then the fix is easy. Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. OP can do this fairly cheap.

»blog.nj.com/jersey/2007/07/banister.jpg

Yes, I will probably do a railing on the open side. Right now, it just comes to money. I started the basement thinking $5000 - $6000. I'm over 13 by now...

said by Viper677:

Now I blame myself for bringing up that handrail issue.

I blame you too

said by robbin:

We've already discussed the handrail but I would like to ask what you had to do to get the stair risers to be the same. From looking at the pic the stairs were pre-existing and you appear to have raised the floor with a subfloor and hardwood. The reason that I ask is that we recently has a similar thread

»Adjusting Stairs

and there were problems with finishing out the existing stairs due to the height added when finishing out the basement floor. Did you have to do a lot of shimming? It appears form the pics you posted that you moved each stair riser out (larger tread) but the pics don't show what you had to do to install the oak treads on the old stairs in order to get everything to work out.

I actually haven't had to install any shims. I guess I was lucky...Just a lot of PL

said by Nick_L:

can I ask why you built the walls on top of the floating floor (that is what it looks like to me, at least)?

It is not a floating floor. Plywood was screwed in to the concrete with tapcons, and it is essentially a subfloor now

Regarding the whole handrail issue...I looked at installing the handrail the whole length of stairs. It was temporary mounted, and it was an eyesore. Wife was not happy, and happy wife is a happy life...House will not go on sale anytime soon, and my kids are 15 and 20 years old, and perfectly capable of reaching 8 inches to grab the handrail when going up the stairs.
I just had an appraiser today, and he didn't even mention the handrail. Maybe code is different in Canada...


cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3
reply to miakica

Do you need a hammer drill for using tapcon's?

I used this hilte gun where you put a .22 charge in it and you hammer the end of the gun and bang, it shoots the nail in.

Only problem with that is, older concrete sometimes cracks instead. Then sometimes when trying to use cut nails, they are a real b*tch to drive in and break often.

Also what brand insulation did you get and what is the R-Value? Interested in waterproof, mold resistant stuff for a lower level. I am using ROXUL R15 bats which is really a pleasure to work with. I don't get that sunburned feeling like after working with fiberglass.

And yes, code here requires handrails to return into the wall. I think its so loose fitting clothing does not get hung up on it, or you don't stab yourself with it.



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1

said by cypherstream:

Do you need a hammer drill for using tapcon's?

You'll be using a drill bit to make a hole in the concrete and after screw in the tapcon. That would kill most non hammer drills and destroy drill bits (On top of taking so much more time and effort).

Anyway, if someone has neither a drill or hammer drill, they're better off buying a hammer drill. Most can turn off the hammer function and be used as a normal drill.


cypherstream
Premium,MVM
join:2004-12-02
Reading, PA
kudos:3

Well with all the fathers day sales this weekend, I might pick me up one! I have a very small section to do and although the Remington .22 charges (#4's) worked for my "long wall"... my 11' 9" front wall is having trouble. Though some extra strength liquid nails construction adhesive helps too in addition to fasteners.