 macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
to jack b
Re: Water Heater Brand RecommendationsThat's about as unbiased as some of the political crap I've been seeing lately..  However I think most reading here will realize that if you are really looking for unbiased opinions you will ask folks that have been actually using the product. |
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said by macsierra8:That's about as unbiased as some of the political crap I've been seeing lately..
However I think most reading here will realize that if you are really looking for unbiased opinions you will ask folks that have been actually using the product.
You are kidding? Right? Most of us are going to post anything to put anything we think, do or buy in a positive light. You would take that as absolutely accurate over the tests performed with the results detailed on the website? Sometimes what we think is not necessarily factual. Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV
1 recommendation |
said by Jack_in_VA:Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less.
Well, where the hell is your documentation? Did the person in the blog post his personal documentation? No, just general math comparisons probably available from tank water heater manufactures. As said here before, tank vs tankless comparisons will always vary by situation. Think about that and explain to us how one article magically covers all situations that is portrayed as non-biased.. But again, I figure most people here are smart enough to look at an article with the summation and OPINION in the first line and realize it's biased. The article uses cherry picked numbers and that's BS, let us decide after gathering all the facts. For instance, in my situation, I'm getting double in gas savings in dollars using Rinnai's chart which was calculated using government guidelines the same as car fuel mileage numbers are. The so called "green blogger" in that link stated Rinnai's calculation was bogus.. If you can't see bias in that statement your not looking for an honest conclusion |
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 jack bGone Fishing
MVM
join:2000-09-08
Cape Cod |
jack b
MVM
2012-Jun-14 12:34 pm
While the blogger is interjecting his own thoughts, the study authors and the results themselves don't have any axe to grind. It's just data. (91 page pdf) |
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said by jack b:While the blogger is interjecting his own thoughts, the study authors and the results themselves don't have any axe to grind. It's just data. (91 page pdf)
Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.  |
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said by Jack_in_VA:said by jack b:While the blogger is interjecting his own thoughts, the study authors and the results themselves don't have any axe to grind. It's just data. (91 page pdf)
Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data. Accurate data is always preferable over perception. But the variable that the study can't control for is local pricing of energy fuels: principally electricity, natural gas, oil, and propane. What economically makes sense for one household may be a terrible choice for another based on the pricing of the fuel(s) in that location. You and I have different perceptions of propane based on local pricing. We're both right... for you it's pretty darn expensive. For me, it's the most cost effective fuel given my choices. A tankless may or may not be the right choice based on a number of factors, some of which are above and beyond just pricing. For me, given my needs, available space, fuel pricing, and installation costs, tankless was the right choice.... but it very well might not be the right choice for others. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:said by jack b:While the blogger is interjecting his own thoughts, the study authors and the results themselves don't have any axe to grind. It's just data. (91 page pdf)
Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data. Yes it is.. Here's some more.. |
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Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data
That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.
I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost. |
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said by Jack_in_VA:That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything. Depends on what assumptions are used about the price of electricity and the usage and habits of an average family. Again... too many variables. I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.
This is exactly what I said when I put one of these in a rental unit that I own. Then again... I'm not heating hot water with it.. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data
That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.
I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.
Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.
You are kidding? Right? Most of us are going to post anything to put anything we think, do or buy in a positive light. You would take that as absolutely accurate over the tests performed with the results detailed on the website? Sometimes what we think is not necessarily factual.
Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less.
You are kidding? Right? You didn't like my "sales promo".. Well Look again at the above clip page 6 (YOUR data summary) in your "documentation" "It's just data. (91 page pdf)" Can you see the 37% savings? That 37% is the bottom line but it can be offset by initial tankless cost. Right? That initial cost can be estimated all over the place as they have done in the 91 page paper to reach their summation that there is little or no gain. Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages that they put in a credit for floor space as in tank vs tankless? The building SF costs here put that number at around $1000 up front.. Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages where they calculated for hydronic space heat in conjunction with the HW? That factor right there would tip the annual cost scales way in favor of tankless. I've done that in my own home installation and I can post my last winter NG bill for the coldest month of $56 if you desire. Now tell me again about those "absolutely accurate" detailed tests in the 91 pages.. |
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So I could achieve a 37 percent savings on my $135/mo electric bill? Space charge inside house is N/A in my case.
Then I would only have the $4.35/gal propane cost plus the expensive tank-less heater to deal with.
All that for a problem that doesn't exist for my wife and I. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
Yep, way too many variables to compare tankless vs tank in all situations. Yours is a good example, tankless using electric is probably unfeasible unless you live next to a hydroelectric dam with rates under 5 cents a KWH.
Propane is expensive because of the monopoly with only a few gas companies having access to supplies. The spot price in Mont Belvieu, TX this week is about 75 cents a gallon where they have millions of gallons of excess propane stored in salt caverns. They burned propane off for years because of no place to store it.
Propane in VA shouldn't cost over $1.25 a gallon tops with truck transport costs plus a decent profit. At 4.27 pounds per gallon a semi transport can carry 11,000 gallons. But because of regulations and monopolies we are all screwed. I paid $2.59 a gallon the other day for LPG motor fuel from my buddy and a had few bottles filled.
I blame it on lobbyists and politicians.. |
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The sad thing is we as consumers can't do a damn thing about it.  I don't even run my propane free standing Buck Stove because it's just too expensive. |
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to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.
You're on a budget plan. |
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iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25 |
to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:said by Jack_in_VA:Source? or did I miss seeing it? Looks like a tankless sales promo to me vs factual data
That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.
I'll stick with my cheap Lowes 40 gal electric and toss it after about 10 years and put another one in. Let's see that's about $25/year equipment cost.
Kind of hard for perceptions to refute accurate data.
You are kidding? Right? Most of us are going to post anything to put anything we think, do or buy in a positive light. You would take that as absolutely accurate over the tests performed with the results detailed on the website? Sometimes what we think is not necessarily factual.
Where is the documentation from posters of what was being spent and how much hot water in gallons were available vs the new tank-less heaters? Tank Type vs Tank-less.
You are kidding? Right? You didn't like my "sales promo".. Well Look again at the above clip page 6 (YOUR data summary) in your "documentation" "It's just data. (91 page pdf)" Can you see the 37% savings? That 37% is the bottom line but it can be offset by initial tankless cost. Right? That initial cost can be estimated all over the place as they have done in the 91 page paper to reach their summation that there is little or no gain. Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages that they put in a credit for floor space as in tank vs tankless? The building SF costs here put that number at around $1000 up front.. Did you see anywhere in the 91 pages where they calculated for hydronic space heat in conjunction with the HW? That factor right there would tip the annual cost scales way in favor of tankless. I've done that in my own home installation and I can post my last winter NG bill for the coldest month of $56 if you desire. Now tell me again about those "absolutely accurate" detailed tests in the 91 pages.. take notice they are comparing a water heater with 60% efficiency to something much higher, try that with a 90% efficiency power vented, and very well insulated water heater!. they are so insulated, they may come on once for a few minutes each day without water usage. my separate, indirect water heater supplied from my oil fired boiler does that!. tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water, it's only the loss that is much greater on an inefficient tank heater that's different. heating water quickly or slowly still takes the same amount of energy to heat to a specified temperature, although the tankless requires a HUGE amount of energy for a short time, which requires a very large electric feed, or a large propane tank and lines and regulator, or large nat gas lines. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
said by iknow: tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water
Nope.. Now think about that and explain the difference between heating water with hot gas under the vessel and exhausting the by-product up a flue in the middle of the tank (vessel) vs heating the water in a coil with the hot gas completely surrounding the water in the coil.. |
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to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:said by Jack_in_VA:That can't even be anywhere near close. My total electric bill per month is $135 for everything.
You're on a budget plan. True but it can go up or down depending on usage |
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iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25 |
to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:said by iknow: tankless heaters use the same amount of energy as a tank heater to heat the water
Nope.. Now think about that and explain the difference between heating water with hot gas under the vessel and exhausting the by-product up a flue in the middle of the tank (vessel) vs heating the water in a coil with the hot gas completely surrounding the water in the coil.. here is a good high efficiency water heater, » www.americanwaterheater. ··· 0908.pdf where, do you see that??. yes, with those 60% efficiency models, there is a big loss, but not with the power vented, 90+ efficiency models!. and they use about 3" of foam insulation to cut standby losses, too!. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
Nice try anyway.. That polaris high efficiency coil (which is what I pointed out in tankless) stainless steel HWH in your link cost about double or triple of a tankless.. Well over $4000 for that baby.. |
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iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25 |
iknow
Premium Member
2012-Jun-16 12:30 am
said by macsierra8:Nice try anyway.. That polaris high efficiency coil (which is what I pointed out in tankless) stainless steel HWH in your link cost about double or triple of a tankless.. Well over $4000 for that baby..
try this one. » www.americanwaterheater. ··· 1110.pdf i can't find the price on it though. |
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macsierra8Baby Newfoundland
Premium Member
join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV |
Here ya go.. Only $5895.31 on a deal $8500 retail » www.amazon.com/American- ··· 4&sr=1-2 |
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1 recommendation |
to macsierra8
said by macsierra8:Propane is expensive because of the monopoly with only a few gas companies having access to supplies. The spot price in Mont Belvieu, TX this week is about 75 cents a gallon where they have millions of gallons of excess propane stored in salt caverns. They burned propane off for years because of no place to store it.
Propane in VA shouldn't cost over $1.25 a gallon tops with truck transport costs plus a decent profit. At 4.27 pounds per gallon a semi transport can carry 11,000 gallons. But because of regulations and monopolies we are all screwed. I paid $2.59 a gallon the other day for LPG motor fuel from my buddy and a had few bottles filled. That's interesting as I look at propane as pretty cheap energy. I don't have natural gas available.... Oil hovered around $4/gallon for most of the winter.... electricity in CT was expensive (and problematic as CL&P had their infamous double meltdown last fall). But me... my propane came in at a high price of $2.288/gal and low price of $2.125/gal over the winter. Correcting for btu differences in the fuels... propane comes out ahead by a wide margin and is the most versatile as I can run a wide variety of devices in including a backup generator. It's all in perspective I guess... propane is the least expensive here in eastern CT at this time. |
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