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urbanriot
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join:2004-10-18
Canada

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Re: [Rant] Work locked down laptop

I wrote all the Comptia A+, Server+, Security+, Network+, Bullshit+ tests from experience. The majority of MCSE tests I wrote from experience with the exception of the smallest book, I think AD related, which wound up being the hardest test, I read twice. The Cisco stuff I had to read back to back a few times.

If you have lots of free time, just read the damn books over and over, buy a used device off eBay and learn learn learn until it's old hat. Then go write the test.

The tests are easy when you actually know what you're doing from experience...

Seriously, stop posting on here and go read.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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elwoodblues

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said by urbanriot See Profile
Seriously, stop posting on here and go read.


Almost forgot.. you took your tests during the multiple guess days (like I did) right? Those are gone, you need to actually know what you are doing now, not just what's in the book (in other words hands on).


Gone
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said by urbanriot:

I wrote all the Comptia A+, Server+, Security+, Network+, Bullshit+ tests from experience. The majority of MCSE tests I wrote from experience with the exception of the smallest book, I think AD related, which wound up being the hardest test, I read twice. The Cisco stuff I had to read back to back a few times.
If you have lots of free time, just read the damn books over and over, buy a used device off eBay and learn learn learn until it's old hat. Then go write the test.
The tests are easy when you actually know what you're doing from experience...
Seriously, stop posting on here and go read.

Pfft, he doesn't even need to do that. If he is truly good at what he does and can demonstrate his knowledge of these things, any decent employer will look at the potential employee and the benefits they bring to the company before they consider the need for a piece of papers.

Certifications are only useful for big corporations and government agencies who have their hiring done by someone who has no clue how the business works and needs to find a way to throw half the resumes they receive into the recycle bin. That's just a fact.

Besides - and I know you'll agree with this - the "Microsoft Way" of doing things in those cert tests is usually so backward and redundant that if you were to follow that way of doing things you'd never get anything done and wouldn't have two clues how to fix anything when it breaks. If I ran my own IT company I'd look at people with practical and demonstrable experience, not people who hand me a binder filled with Microsoft certification certificates. My biggest problem with doing the certs was that I had a better way of doing things than the tests expected you to know.
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said by elwoodblues:

Those are gone, you need to actually know what you are doing now, not just what's in the book (in other words hands on).

Good! About bloody time. The whole reason I hated those stupid exams is because I needed to re-learn everything when I already knew how to do it but it wasn't word-for-word what they wanted on the multiple choice tests.

Still, I will never write one of those cert tests again in my life, so the point is moot, haha.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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elwoodblues

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Exactly I remember the "Official" Microsoft stance for shared folders on a workstation was 10, but we all knew it went way beyond that.
elwoodblues

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said by Gone:

Pfft, he doesn't even need to do that. If he is truly good at what he does and can demonstrate his knowledge of these things, any decent employer will look at the potential employee and the benefits they bring to the company before they consider the need for a piece of papers.

The problem is that the HR person is looking for a MCSE a CCNA a CCIE and a VCP (in the above example) at the request of the hiring manager. Not on your resume, it goes into the trash folder.

So assuming I can do all just the same, I'm still not getting past HR because I don't have those titles? beside my name or I can't demonstrate on my resume that I've gotten them. Remember HR knows SFA, and are scanning for the keywords that match the job description. A small business, for sure, but not a larger company.

It's not that cut and dry.

Gone
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said by elwoodblues:

It's not that cut and dry.

It is that cut and dry, because if the "hiring manager" has to outsource hiring to an HR manager and requests that they be that rigid with pieces of paper that have about as much practical usefulness as a piece of toilet paper, it's not a company I want to work for. The "hiring manager" him/herself is probably incompetent, too.

urbanriot
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Canada

urbanriot

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I have to agree with previous posters on the credentials thing, as HR goes off a mental points list where the person that looks best on paper is usually the person they hire as, if that person fucks up, they can claim the person looked great on paper.

Degree, check. Credentials? Great! Experience? Sure, that's a bonus.

Most places have HR buffering the management people from the majority of the hirees, and people in management review the few that HR figured looked good on paper. I went through piles of these in the late 90's / early 2000's for contractual jobs and I admit to doctoring my resume considerably, to get access to the management people, after which I'd advise them that my resume wasn't accurate to the truth so I could get past HR and they never cared. One project manager once said, "good, we wanted someone with real experience anyhow!"

Gone
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Gone

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Padding one's resume works great. I've done the same thing and it's never been an issue once I actually got to talk to the people that mattered, because they're the ones who can realistically evaluate your skills and experience.
freejazz_RdJ
join:2009-03-10

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said by elwoodblues:

said by Gone:

The problem is that the HR person is looking for a MCSE a CCNA a CCIE and a VCP (in the above example) at the request of the hiring manager. Not on your resume, it goes into the trash folder.

So assuming I can do all just the same, I'm still not getting past HR because I don't have those titles? beside my name or I can't demonstrate on my resume that I've gotten them. Remember HR knows SFA, and are scanning for the keywords that match the job description. A small business, for sure, but not a larger company.

It's not that cut and dry.

So? Start lower on the totem pole. I work every day with guys who finished high school, worked a crap job and then landed in IT somehow because they were hard working and yes lucky / personable / attractive as well. They get a course or two reimbursed while they're at the bottom a move up a rung every few years.

My take is that you either have the ability to take a block of time to go to school for these things full-time (i.e. fresh from high school or life changing event that forces retraining, etc.) OR you build it up and move up over time. Even if you can't get it paid by your employer, the investment of $5k to pass a CCIE (books, materials, bootcamp course) will give you a return if you can make use of it.

Gone
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said by freejazz_RdJ:

My take is that you either have the ability to take a block of time to go to school for these things full-time (i.e. fresh from high school or life changing event that forces retraining, etc.) OR you build it up and move up over time. Even if you can't get it paid by your employer, the investment of $5k to pass a CCIE (books, materials, bootcamp course) will give you a return if you can make use of it.

So what you're saying is that if someone already has skills and can demonstrate those skills you want them to waste their money and, more importantly, time just for a piece of paper, and that you hold that piece of paper in higher value than the actual skills that they demonstrate?

You pretty just summarized why I think the whole industry is centred around a bunch of bullshit, and this one of a few reasons why I never want to work in it again unless I'm working for myself.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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elwoodblues

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said by Gone:

So what you're saying is that if someone already has skills and can demonstrate those skills you want them to waste their money and, more importantly, time just for a piece of paper, and that you hold that piece of paper in higher value than the actual skills that they demonstrate?

Exactly my sentiments, back when the tests were multiple guess (just googled, they're still around), there so many "boot camps" in which over the period of several weeks, you'd have the information drilled into your head, take and pass the tests and voilĂ  we've got a MSCE, a "highly coveted" piece of paper.

But what did/do they really know?

To me, experience should always speak volumes over a piece of paper that said I took a test and passed.

donoreo
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join:2002-05-30
North York, ON

donoreo

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said by elwoodblues:

said by Gone:

So what you're saying is that if someone already has skills and can demonstrate those skills you want them to waste their money and, more importantly, time just for a piece of paper, and that you hold that piece of paper in higher value than the actual skills that they demonstrate?

Exactly my sentiments, back when the tests were multiple guess (just googled, they're still around), there so many "boot camps" in which over the period of several weeks, you'd have the information drilled into your head, take and pass the tests and voilĂ  we've got a MSCE, a "highly coveted" piece of paper.

But what did/do they really know?

To me, experience should always speak volumes over a piece of paper that said I took a test and passed.

My Red Hat certification was all practical, no written. There were guys with CompTIA certs and MSCEs in the class and over half the class failed. I did a week long intensive 10 hour day course with the exam on Friday.

Gone
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said by elwoodblues:

But what did/do they really know?

I've met more dumfuck "IT People" with a binder full of Microsoft and Cisco certifications than I can count. This is probably why the industry is so fucked up to begin with, you've got a bunch of incompetent people running around trying to do stuff they have no clue how to do and yet they're hired into positions of skill because clowns who don't know any better hire them because they have a binder full of toilet paper. It's a never-ending cycle of stupidity.

I'm personally of the belief that in order for someone to be talented in the field of IT, they need to have solid cognitive reasoning and problem solving skills more than anything else. If you are good at thinking things through and have a mental process in place for solving problems you'll do good at the job and will figure out whatever gets thrown at you regardless of the training you may have, and you'll become better and better at the job as time goes on. If you can't do that - and trust me, not everyone can - no amount of training or certification will make you good at the job, and they'll never progress beyond the surface.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
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elwoodblues

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Not to mention there is a huge industry centred around certifications.

donoreo
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donoreo

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said by elwoodblues:

Not to mention there is a huge industry centred around certifications.

I think Novell is to blame for that. I think at one point they were making more revenue from training than product sales. Back in the day everyone had a CNA or CNE.

urbanriot
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said by Gone:

I've met more dumfuck "IT People" with a binder full of Microsoft and Cisco certifications than I can count.

Same. And these days, I meet more big wig IT project managers, directors, operations managers, etc., that know sweet fuck all about what they're directing / operating / managing, and basically argue on general management philosophies against your, "this is what you must do, there is no choice, this isn't a philosophical issue, it's a technical requirement." Basically they were shit at hands-on yet somehow moved up the ranks and they're still useless.
said by Gone:

I'm personally of the belief that in order for someone to be talented in the field of IT, they need to have solid cognitive reasoning and problem solving skills more than anything else.

I wholeheartedly agree with this quote and everything else you wrote, however the issue becomes more complicated as you move deeper into the world of corporate IT as you find people that have plenty of these abilities which work great for problem solving and hands on repair, but don't work so well for systems designing, procedure creation, documentation, and they're often missing integral requirements that are necessary for communicating IT requirements or configurations.

The whole reason I went about certification a few decades ago was because I was wading into those waters and couldn't communicate in the big leagues as I didn't understand these fancy new terms that people were using, terms that I thoroughly understand in detail at the hands on, technological level; but I didn't know the large scope terms and furthermore, didn't have the experience thinking at the large scope level.

After that, I bought every certification testing book for any of the systems I'd be working with and spent months getting every certification that would put me at their level (minus the comp. sci university degree) and I was then on the same page as them. Better yet, I was chapters ahead since I had the knowledge and plenty of skilled hands-on experience.

So basically, anyone can be a hotshot computer fixer without the useless certs but you'd better know those certification books back to back if you want to play in the world of corporate IT, and you better know Cisco IOS inside and out... at least until you're in a position to manage the people that know what you don't.
said by donoreo:

said by elwoodblues:

Not to mention there is a huge industry centred around certifications.

I think Novell is to blame for that.

Yea, except Novell had adaptive testing where you had to have a decent understanding of what you were doing or you were fucked.