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Razzy

join:2012-06-21
reply to darcilicious

Re: [Other] Microsoft to Launch Tablet to Rival iPad?

said by »blogs.msdn.com/b/b8/archive/2011···een.aspx :

Keyboard and mouse

Because we have often demonstrated touch interactions with Start and its lineage in the Windows Phone Metro style, many believe that our design is all about touch rather than keyboard and mouse, or even that we’re putting the phone interface on a PC—it is neither.

For mouse people, the position of the Start button in the lower-left corner of Windows 8 makes it an easy click-target (even in a full-screen app). Once in Start, more items are directly accessible to the mouse without scrolling or opening menu flyouts. For keyboard people, pinning frequently used desktop apps on the desktop taskbar enables instant shortcuts: Win+1, Win+2, etc. And, getting to less frequently used apps through search follows the existing paradigm of hitting the Windows key and typing the search term. The larger search results improve speed (both for searching and browsing).

Of course, there are things we’re still working on, that aren’t yet finished in the Developer Preview. For example, we know there are bugs in interacting at high speed with the scroll wheel on the mouse, and we’re working on fixing these. We’re also adding the ability to instantly zoom out with the mouse and keyboard, and we’re looking at ways to make scrolling faster and easier. And, we are working on fixing a bug in the Developer Preview that causes inconsistent and slow page-down/page-up behavior. We’re also looking at making rearranging more predictable for mouse, keyboard, and touch.

One picture we often use to talk about change is the following. The y-axis is some measure of efficiency—such as time to complete a task, seconds it takes to do something, etc. The x-axis is calendar time. If someone is proficient with something and then a change takes place, there is by definition a dip in functionality. But after an adjustment period, the metrics of success improve. The net result is that over time, work becomes more efficient, even for the same task. And combined with new tasks and capabilities there is an overall net win.

Summary

The Windows 8, the Start screen is not just a replacement for the Windows 7 Start menu but a bringing together of several different ways of navigating your machine. Even in Windows 7, people who are proficient with Windows are already replacing the Start menu with the taskbar for their frequently used desktop apps.

For people using mostly desktop apps, the Start screen complements the functionality of the taskbar. Using both together, you have instant access to your most frequently used apps combined with a more powerful way to launch your less frequently used apps (through search or by grouping items on the Start screen). And, for Metro apps, Live tiles transform the Start screen into a dashboard that helps you stay up to date and connected in a high quality experience substantially improved over the notification tray. The new experience offers a way to more efficiently launch apps, stay connected to the most relevant information from apps, and find the things you care about. It also lets you launch and switch quickly between your apps and specific locations within those apps all without sacrificing performance or draining the battery of a laptop or tablet PC.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to darcilicious

I think some people are making an inexplicable big deal out of touch input (or the lack thereof) and Windows 8.

For what its worth, I’ve run Windows 8 on the following test systems:

quote:
Asus Eee Slate EP121 Windows 7 Tablet PC (in VM) 12.1" multi-touch

HP Touchsmart IQ5xx 22" single touch (as Host OS)

Intel Core i5 2500K / Asus P8P67 Pro / Asus VE278Q 27" LED no touch (in VM)

Touch input or no touch input the OS worked fine and was perfectly serviceable. The only minor problem that I have encountered was with older proprietary single touch input systems which will cull the touch feature set and touch functionality but that is a limitation of the hardware not the OS.

You don't need a touch screen for Windows 8 people,....you just don't,..

My next test system will be on a a triple monitor setup (27", 22" and 19" with no touch support at all) on an Intel Sandy Bridge-E Core i7 3930K / Asus P9X79 Pro with 24GB of RAM (with possibly up to 720GB to ~1TB of pure SSD storage).


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

said by Octavean:

I think some people are making an inexplicable big deal out of touch input (or the lack thereof) and Windows 8.

Touch input or no touch input the OS worked fine and was perfectly serviceable

Indeed.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by darcilicious:

said by Octavean:

I think some people are making an inexplicable big deal out of touch input (or the lack thereof) and Windows 8.

Touch input or no touch input the OS worked fine and was perfectly serviceable

Indeed.

DOS worked fine too. Heck, CP/M worked great as well.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Razzy

join:2012-06-21
reply to darcilicious

I could also see the Windows 8 metro cash register at bars or resturant or any places you'd see employee hitting their screen with their yucky fingerz.

Also - touchscreen monitors could be using Gorilla Glass - so it'd be safe to bang (LOL) on the monitor.



darcilicious
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Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

said by Razzy:

Also - touchscreen monitors could be using Gorilla Glass - so it'd be safe to bang (LOL) on the monitor.

Now there's a plan I can get behind!


natedj
Elected
Premium
join:2001-06-06
Columbia, SC
reply to darcilicious

Well lets see what Google has to say today, all in all I think that prices in general will be dropping.
Live blog coverage.
»live.cnet.com/Event/Google_IO_We···_Keynote
--
Good judgement comes with experience...Experience comes after bad judgements



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA

said by natedj:

Well lets see what Google has to say today,

I'm sure all attendees get the latest android tablet that no one else will buy
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by darcilicious:

said by Octavean:

I think some people are making an inexplicable big deal out of touch input (or the lack thereof) and Windows 8.

Touch input or no touch input the OS worked fine and was perfectly serviceable

Indeed.

DOS worked fine too. Heck, CP/M worked great as well.

This is in reference to my test hardware.

I have not tested any specific DOS version or CP/M on my test hardware. However, I am fairly certain that the statement you quoted doesn’t apply to your statement in part or in whole.

Without touch input it might work fine (might not be able to address the 24GB of RAM or 6 cores 12 threads,.. not sure) but I sincerely doubt that touch would work with such archaic OSes. Which was kind of the point of what you quoted in terms of working with or without touch input.

Razzy

join:2012-06-21

said by Octavean:

This is in reference to my test hardware.

I have not tested any specific DOS version or CP/M on my test hardware. However, I am fairly certain that the statement you quoted doesn’t apply to your statement in part or in whole.

Without touch input it might work fine (might not be able to address the 24GB of RAM or 6 cores 12 threads,.. not sure) but I sincerely doubt that touch would work with such archaic OSes. Which was kind of the point of what you quoted in terms of working with or without touch input.

You could load DOS in VirtualBox and use onscreen keyboard


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1

You really had to go there didn’t you,….


Razzy

join:2012-06-21


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Mele20:



Why would someone want to run Windows 8 without a touch screen? What would be the point in Metro?

live tiles provide ambient information when doing something other than working in a single application.

Huh? That is goobledegook to me....mind explaining it? What do you mean by "ambient information"? Why is providing what ever that is "when doing something other than working in a single application" important? Are you talking about so called "multi-tasking"? That has been scientifically debunked. Human brains are not capable of multi-tasking. Or, are you talking about something else?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to darcilicious

I didn't know that you personally have decided that on dslreports that no one has the right to complain or voice their opinion about anything. I'd just say back at you that if I have no right to voice my opinion here then I don't think you do either. Maybe the mods should have moved this thread to Rants and Raves...I imagine you would prefer that.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Mele20:



Why would someone want to run Windows 8 without a touch screen? What would be the point in Metro?

live tiles provide ambient information when doing something other than working in a single application.

Huh? That is goobledegook to me....mind explaining it? What do you mean by "ambient information"? Why is providing what ever that is "when doing something other than working in a single application" important?

I expect it's like gadgets. Instead of completely stopping what one is doing to open another application, web page, etc, one can glance up briefly, get the info (time, temperature, cpu usage, whatever) and return back to what you're doing.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Razzy

said by Razzy:

said by Mele20:

Why would someone want to run Windows 8 without a touch screen? What would be the point in Metro?

I am more productive in it than previous Windows. I like the live tiles on the start screen - kept me in the loop better. And when I (finally) get a tablet - it'll work exactly the same way as Windows 8 but with a touch screen. I never used IE10 in Metro for any other reason beside checking it out on my desktop - just a regular IE10 browser. Sometimes I'd go into the stock or weather metro apps to check out the information I want - very useful informations right up front. This is all with using a mouse - no touchscreen on my home PC - I don't think I'd want a touchscreen for a while because of cost and I'm all about the screen quality (resolutions, DPI, colors, etc) more than touching the screen. Maybe I'll change my mind in a few years but right now, I don't want (or need) a touchscreen on my Windows 8 desktop.

Thanks for the explanation. I can see better now why folks who actually use the Desktop might like Windows 8. I NEVER use my Desktop except to see it when I minimize all open programs to the taskbar when leaving the computer for several hours or overnight (or on boot/reboot which I avoid as much as possible). I only see it then for a few seconds before my screensaver comes on. I have zero interest in looking at stuff on my desktop. I am a Windows Explorer person and I will be using Win 7 in classic view ....nothing of it will be Win 7 as I will replace the crappy start menu and terrible search and no list of programs, etc. with third party applications to make it like all earlier versions of Windows. I know Explorer has been changed for the worse in Win 7 but there are third party fixes for most of those changes so I will be using Explorer when I need a program, or whatever, not the Desktop. On Vista, the first thing I did was get rid of all the gunk that Microsoft put on the desktop. So, "live" tiles or non-live ones is not something that interests me.

I don't feel that I must constantly choose the latest fad but that seems to be the opinion of many in this thread and they feel very threatened when someone points out that makes little sense. There is no reason to change something unless the way it is currently done is horrible for that person. Change for change's sake only is the hallmark of a very insecure person letting a company lead them around by the nose. But you have stated that you are more productive in Win 8 than earlier versions of Windows. That is a fine reason to embrace Windows 8. I would not be more productive but that does not mean that I fear change or that I am stupid, etc. My point has always been that Microsoft should allow choice and they have in the past (although grudgingly beginning with Vista), but with Windows 8 they have decided to kill choice as much as they can. They need to hear the protests loud and clear.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


darcilicious
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Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

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said by Mele20:

and they feel very threatened when someone points out that makes little sense.

And some people state their opinions as universal truth.

There is no reason to change something unless the way it is currently done is horrible for that person.

Something has to be "horrible" before one should change?? Something can't be okay, or even great and still not desire change for something even "better"?

Change for change's sake only is the hallmark of a very insecure person letting a company lead them around by the nose.

Hah! That's funny! Yes, people who counter your opinions are being led around by the nose by Microsoft, that would explain it all


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

said by JohnInSJ:

said by Mele20:



Why would someone want to run Windows 8 without a touch screen? What would be the point in Metro?

live tiles provide ambient information when doing something other than working in a single application.

Huh? That is goobledegook to me....mind explaining it? What do you mean by "ambient information"? Why is providing what ever that is "when doing something other than working in a single application" important? Are you talking about so called "multi-tasking"? That has been scientifically debunked. Human brains are not capable of multi-tasking. Or, are you talking about something else?

Do you have art hanging on your walls? Do you have a radio on, or listen to background music? This is ambient information - should you look at it, it provides some information (live tiles that is) like "oh, I have new email!" or "Oh, someone has commented on my facebook post!" or "Oh, so and so posted something interesting on twitter"

There are devices that do this... »en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambient_device and your PC is one of them, with Metro

Some people do have many information flows that they are interested in, but not to the extent that they want to drop into twitter, email, facebook, or other apps all the time to check...
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

No, I don't multi task. It is not possible anyway....some think it is but science has recently proven that is not possible for humans to multitask. I would absolutely HATE having something announce that I have a new email, or whatever. (Opera mail does that and I hate it and I stopped using Opera mail partly because of the unnecessary invasiveness of it). I am capable of checking my email without distracting "help" from my browser. If I wish to check my email, I will do so. Otherwise, it should stay out of my mind, out of my way.

Same with most things. I generally do only one task at a time. I keep my computer's speakers turned off all the time unless I decide to watch a video which I don't do often. If I want to listen to music, I listen to music but I don't do other stuff then. If I want to admire the artwork on my walls then I walk around and do so. But I block everything out except what I am doing right then so I don't even realize there is anything on my walls when I am on my computer.

I don't listen to the radio in the car either. I dislike RSS feeds and turned off all that back when it first became popular. I have ADHD and the last thing I need is more distraction and that is what multitasking is. So, yeah, I would detest "live" tiles on a desktop if I couldn't turn them off! An Operating System should work FOR me and WITH me which means that it should not get in my way, or distract me, and evidently that is the ONLY thing Windows 8 does is get in your way and act as a terrible distraction. Microsoft obviously has not read the latest research on the inability of humans to multitask and on the fact that trying to multitask is actually detrimental to one's health. Windows 8 may even violate ADA because anyone with ADHD will have a difficult time trying to use it since it seems to have lots of builtin distractions that cannot be turned off. Microsoft should have NOT decided to force Metro on all Windows 8 users. Users should be allowed to boot directly past Metro and have a normal desktop and normal Windows if they need (or just want) that.

I appreciate your explaining what you meant.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Razzy

join:2012-06-21

There IS a normal desktop in Windows 8. Metro "doesn't get in your way" at all - I don't get that part. The only time I see Metro UI is when I want to load software like Microsoft Office 2010 or Paint.NET or QuickBooks or VirtualBox or 29782739479234 Windows software out there. That's it. That's the ONLY time I see the Metro - it doesn't pop up in front of me by it self. Hell you can forgo ALL metro apps by unpinning ALL the apps on the start screen so it'll look blank - then you can pin whatever your favorite applications. So when you hit WIN key or move mouse to start corner and click - you'd see a full screen with all your favorites applications for you to click on. You click on one of the tile, the metro will disappear and go straight to desktop to load the windows application without delay.

The notification is actually a balloon that pops up on top right corner of your screen in desktop and metro then disappear a short time later all by it self - you can click on it to go to that application. You can turn that off as well.

Why don't you sit down and use/learn it on your machine? Actually learn why MS did that instead of reading what other people says - it makes sense to me.



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
San Jose, CA
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

No, I don't multi task. It is not possible anyway....

So, um, when you are NOT working on your computer, but it's on, and say it's sitting there, and you're doing something else for a few minutes... and you look at the computer because it's time to start doing your laser-like single task you're going to embark on... you could look at the metro tiles you've selected to be shown on your monitor in one quick scan, and see if you have new mail, or if something interesting has happened with some people you follow, or if some news broke.

Then you could go to the desktop and return to your focused, single app.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to Razzy

said by Razzy:

There IS a normal desktop in Windows 8. Metro "doesn't get in your way" at all - I don't get that part. The only time I see Metro UI is when...

You are trying to get us to pretend the UI doesn't exist or with a wave of our hand goes away. If any of that was true, Microsoft wouldn't be promoting/selling/pushing it in everything we see. And no regular user is going to attempt to make Win8 behave differently than out of the box.

Razzy

join:2012-06-21

LOL dude, I didn't say it doesn't exist. The Metro start screen is ALSO the desktop's start menu.

Like my friend said "It's like Mac OS X's mission control had sex with Android widgets and gave birth to this".



darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
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Forest Grove, OR
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Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

1 recommendation

reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

I generally do only one task at a time. I keep my computer's speakers turned off all the time unless I decide to watch a video which I don't do often. If I want to listen to music, I listen to music but I don't do other stuff then. If I want to admire the artwork on my walls then I walk around and do so. But I block everything out except what I am doing right then so I don't even realize there is anything on my walls when I am on my computer.

And most people aren't like this. That's what you seem to overlook, time and time again.

I work in a small office environment and at any given time, half of us have our headphones on, listening to music while we work to block out the distractions of other folks talking on the phone, talking with other folks, people coming in and out of the office, etc.

That is more the norm that what you describe for yourself.

So yeah, we get it, Windows 8 isn't for you, it will be too distracting.

Windows 8 is for me, I do like the notion of ambient tools, I like getting notified when I have new email (customers contacting me) just like I need the phone to ring when a customer calls me. And in between, I do (the rest of) my job.

P.S. I drive for over an hour each way to work, and if I didn't have music and audiobooks to help occupy my brain, I'd probably fall asleep. And in nearly 7 years of this commute, I have never caused an accident. I don't know if that qualifies as multitasking or not but I'd have to guess, yes it does.


mastsethi

join:2012-05-26
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

said by mastsethi:

Will Surface support external storage? It can really kill off the competition..

x86 is full win8. USB storage works fine there. The Arm tablet? Probably, Win Phone 8 (same core OS) supports flash storage, so it seems pretty likely.

If that's the case, it would sell like hot cakes. MS wouldn't give a reason to buy iPad


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to darcilicious

I think I like this tablet:

The Modbook Pro gets official, CEO Andreas Haas talks success in an iPad world

quote:
It's easy to see his point -- the iPad and most Android tablets are certainly limited as tools for creative professionals. The Modbook Pro, on the other hand, gives the user full OS functionality on a stylus input device. With the base configuration, you're getting a 2.5GHz, dual-core Intel Core i5 processor (upgradable to a 2.9GHz, dual-core Intel Core i7), up to 16GB of RAM and up to either a 1TB HDD or 960GB SSD, for starters -- this is very much a real computer. On top of all of that is a pen system that offers 512 pressure levels on its 1280 by 800 pixel display.

And unlike past Modbooks, born in an era in which dual-boot wasn't the MacBook standard, the company is now pushing the Windows experience on this device. "The Modbook Pro runs both Windows 7 and OS X," says Haas, "and if you use them side-by-side and you don't mind, if you are one of those users who'd rather lose his right arm than a Mac operating system and you don't care, then I would actually expect you to end up on the Windows side of things."

I’d like to see it with Thunderbolt and a higher resolution though.

Not sure how they are pulling off this OS X support.

Razzy

join:2012-06-21

Yeah I can't see it either. Apple will iikely go after them.. unless of course (but I still cant see it) Apple allowed them to.



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to darcilicious

quote:
Surface is just a proof of concept?

Subject: General Tech | July 11, 2012 - 01:38 PM | Jeremy Hellstrom
Tagged: microsoft, surface, ballmer

Microsoft's CEO, Steve Ballmer, recently referred to the Surface ultraportable as "just a design point". This is bound to disappoint a lot of geeks who fell in love with the new touchscreen tablet/laptop which showed off the new Win8 interface in a much more effective manner than we have seen from previous computers. On the other hand, many OEM's will find this announcement reassuring as when the Surface was first introduced they were less than impressed at a software company muscling in on their territory. Still, he expects to sell a million or so of the devices so those who really desire a Surface should be able to get their hands on one.


»www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/···t-193411

As I suspected, more of a reference or proof of concept design then anything else. I also highly doubt that Microsoft ever referred to the Surface initiative as an iPad killer with any degree of specificity. There is room in the market for different kinds of tablets aimed at different price ranges and it is likely the media and those entrenched in one camp or the other (MS vs. Apple) that insist on forcing such an issue.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Razzy

How can I sit down and learn it when I currently have an XP Pro SP2 machine? I have to just read about it. I was able to do the Windows 7 public beta on a virtual machine so I know something about it. I had to immediately add third partly applications to get it to work as all previous Microsoft OS from 95 on through Vista have worked (classic mode). I don't even like Win 7 without third party applications so I can't imagine wanting Win 8 as my understanding is that you cannot use Classic mode on Win 8. You can on Win 7 but it was a hassle to do so with the public beta. Again, just from reading, I gather it became a bit easier with the release version. But I still face a lot of fixing of Win 7 to have it like all previous versions of Windows GUI wise.

I don't believe that Win 8 allows one to fix it. Microsoft has broken free of classic mode with Win 8 as far as I have read and I cannot test that for myself on this XP machine. I want Display Properties/Appearance/Advanced Display/Item List and there I configure Windows display and buttons as I want everything. I think Microsoft removed this in Win 8. In Win 7 public beta it was accessible ONLY from Accessibility type themes until I was able to force Win 7 to let me make my own theme and forced use of Item list. Win 7 kept trying to force me to use Accessibility special themes if I wanted the Advanced Display properties/Items list. Drove me nuts but I heard that changed with the final release version of Win 7. I also heard that classic display is completely gone from Win 8. Maybe that is not true but I can't test any of this on my XP computer. Nor can I test Win 8 on a virtual machine on VMWare Workstation 7 that I have as it won't work on it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Razzy

join:2012-06-21

said by Mele20:

How can I sit down and learn it when I currently have an XP Pro SP2 machine? I have to just read about it. I was able to do the Windows 7 public beta on a virtual machine so I know something about it. I had to immediately add third partly applications to get it to work as all previous Microsoft OS from 95 on through Vista have worked (classic mode). I don't even like Win 7 without third party applications so I can't imagine wanting Win 8 as my understanding is that you cannot use Classic mode on Win 8. You can on Win 7 but it was a hassle to do so with the public beta. Again, just from reading, I gather it became a bit easier with the release version. But I still face a lot of fixing of Win 7 to have it like all previous versions of Windows GUI wise.

I don't believe that Win 8 allows one to fix it. Microsoft has broken free of classic mode with Win 8 as far as I have read and I cannot test that for myself on this XP machine. I want Display Properties/Appearance/Advanced Display/Item List and there I configure Windows display and buttons as I want everything. I think Microsoft removed this in Win 8. In Win 7 public beta it was accessible ONLY from Accessibility type themes until I was able to force Win 7 to let me make my own theme and forced use of Item list. Win 7 kept trying to force me to use Accessibility special themes if I wanted the Advanced Display properties/Items list. Drove me nuts but I heard that changed with the final release version of Win 7. I also heard that classic display is completely gone from Win 8. Maybe that is not true but I can't test any of this on my XP computer. Nor can I test Win 8 on a virtual machine on VMWare Workstation 7 that I have as it won't work on it.

See bold? That barely exist in my world.