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cymraeg
Thread Killer
Premium
join:2011-06-07
Dodge, NE
reply to Kearnstd

Re: [Vanilla] Good read on the Golden Age of World PvP

i agree with you Kearn, when i first started and horde would decimate GS, i would go looking for them now if they do it i get pissed and ? why am i still questing here anyway, i have found that as i age with this game i tolerate that kind of thing less.
--
Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau!
I've lost the bleeps, I've lost the creeps and I've lost the sweeps.



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

How about this for an idea add in achevs for some world PVP stuff

like say, kill 10 quest givers in each zone



Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by DarkLogix:

like say, kill 10 quest givers in each zone

that isn't pvp. PvP achieves should be limited to PvP.

sidenote: with the change to vengeance... would tanking pvp folks taunting mobs during pvp allow for vengeance to stack?


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

said by Immer:

said by DarkLogix:

like say, kill 10 quest givers in each zone

that isn't pvp. PvP achieves should be limited to PvP.

sidenote: with the change to vengeance... would tanking pvp folks taunting mobs during pvp allow for vengeance to stack?

Ok how about kill 10 lvl89 toons (or rather proper level toons for the zone, that are at the max level for the zone or lvl89 if its a lvl 89-90 zone) just so that it might be hard to find them

Jodokast

join:2012-05-10

Ah the good old days of world pvp, nothing has ever been the same!
yes i got upset when i got ganked and I also turned around and did the ganking. Its true it was inconvenient but it was something you remembered and was involved in, active, dynamic and involving.
That i miss a lot, always being on guard and aware of you surrounding, never knowing if you going to be attacked.



Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4
reply to Immer

said by Immer:

sidenote: with the change to vengeance... would tanking pvp folks taunting mobs during pvp allow for vengeance to stack?

I haven't heard about another change, however vengeance used to stack in PvP and they broke it because of how stupidly OP it was. So I'd be very surprised if they reverted their change.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

I'm still talking about the same change where they made vengeance only stack when an NPC hits your toon. I was wondering if pvp types were taunting over random adds in world pvp to get vengeance to stack. Not that I care, just offering up pvp questions.



Snuffbox
nice irl
Premium
join:2011-04-15
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:4

So that I understand, your question is:

If a Prot aggro's NPC's AND has enemy players on him, will vengeance proc?

Yes, I'm quite sure the NPC's would proc Vengeance and it would not be wiped simply due to the presence of PvP players.

It's just coded to only proc from NPCs, but not to wipe in the presence of PvP.

Hopefully I understood?



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Immer

Also hows this for an idea

put a PVP tower (or such) in every new zone, then only when one faction controls a majority of the towers some special instance or such opens, to make it better than WG/TB have it be a room with both a raid and 3 dungeons with good loot.

Also have the time to capture not timed but once one faction has a majority of the towers and none of the fully captured are contested for say 5min then a 2hour window starts for access to the room

Also have an achev for each tower

It'd be like WG/TB but covering the WHOLE continent, and not set into a PVP raid, and not que able, just when its active you could switch on your PVP flag and try getting a tower for your faction

Then have some special quest givers spawn at each tower that would help with rep related to whatever faction makes sense for that zone

This would encurage some PVP thats not bound to one special zone, and anyone could take part, there would be an incintive, and it'd be hard because it'd be over the whole land and you wouldn't have some easy 40man groupping to get you going, infact 40 might not be enough.

also make the area around the tower not be phased



gains

@windstream.net

the one thing that should be done to promote world pvp is server balance. who gives a sh*t about world pvp if the other faction out numbers you 20 to 1.

so stop server and faction changes to the higher population side. it goes hand in hand why "fix" world pvp when it's broken by server and faction changes. it'll still be broke even if they are able to bring back world pvp.

even servers that are relatively ballance 2:1 still have a losing side.... 2 vs 1 still mean you barely have a fighting chance. xrealm zones won't fix this. it's broken because of bliz's money grab.



Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

1 edit
reply to Snuffbox

precisely.

said by DarkLogix:

Also hows this for an idea

Sounds like an intricate blend of Zangarmarsh and Terrokkar pvp events. Not bad. I dislike the idea of opening a dungeon (we don't need another TB or VoA). The spirit shard mechanic was nice... just grant a little extra JP to the controlling faction, or give them minor Archy bonus to artifacts per dig. Whatever it is, it should be something that I would NEVER want unless I decided to join in the reindeer games (pvp).

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Immer

Uh no. Aggroing Mobs to get a little extra attack power is not going to help you in pvp. The extra damage you take while you are trying to pvp would get you killed. Tanks sucked back when pvp stacked vengance. The only class that was ok'ish was Blood DKs, and that was only 1v1 vs another melee DPS. So no, attacking mobs to get a little vengance while PVPing would be stupid.



Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to gains

I can't fully agree. The realm population counts characters, not players. If you fix world pvp (meaning give people the incentive to go do it) then you get small groups of people engaging in world pvp. The pvp community has an edge to them, and my server has entire guilds that switched factions to engage in pvp because it was so boring being all horde.

So, I tend to agree that if they aren't even addressing server imbalance they are in the wrong. However, I don't see it as complete waste of time to try to reinvigorate world pvp (from their perspective, not mine).
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.



Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Vinceruos_t

said by Vinceruos_t:

Uh no. Aggroing Mobs to get a little extra attack power is not going to help you in pvp. The extra damage you take while you are trying to pvp would get you killed. Tanks sucked back when pvp stacked vengance. The only class that was ok'ish was Blood DKs, and that was only 1v1 vs another melee DPS. So no, attacking mobs to get a little vengance while PVPing would be stupid.

In a simplistic setup, I agree. Now, despite my loathing of pvp, I did get into some of the city raids when achievements were first put in... and when you are talking 2 raids versus 2 raids with heals and tanks, etc... who's gonna notice that extra mob beating on the tank feeding him attack power? (and... it wasn't just a little attack power.. it was broken. And they only fixed it by adjusting the source of vengeance).
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to Immer

said by Immer:

precisely.

said by DarkLogix:

Also hows this for an idea

Sounds like an intricate blend of Zangarmarsh and Terrokkar pvp events. Not bad. I dislike the idea of opening a dungeon (we don't need another TB or VoA). The spirit shard mechanic was nice... just grant a little extra JP to the controlling faction, or give them minor Archy bonus to artifacts per dig. Whatever it is, it should be something that I would NEVER want unless I decided to join in the reindeer games (pvp).

It needs to be something that will keep people interested

Maybe special discount VP/JP vendors, though the interest in saving JP/VP by using them might diminish

It might be something like BC but in my idea one tower per zone, and every zone gets a tower, even one in a dalaran like zone if it exists (have a small PVP area with the tower)

Then make each zone get some perk if its held and the side holding it wins, something like more XP, more rep in that zone that has the annoying rep grind, health buff for the hard zone, maybe faster node respawning for Herb/mineing/ect, ect

but then if your faction got the majority of the zones that round then something special and long term interesting would open

Just not a single zone PVP area, the point of my idea is to spread it over the WHOLE MOP area, all MOP zones


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

right, I was thinking "blend of Zangarmarsh and Terrokkar pvp expanded to the whole map" but it didn't all make it to text, lol.

As for keeping people interested in pvp... Nothing about pvp is enduring. The fights are short... the corpse runs are short... the "victory" is short. It's repetition at its finest. The only thing that gets long is the rez timer if you are being focused or camped.

Oh, and I totally mistyped earlier when I said "JP". I meant Honor points. World pvp should provide a bonus to pvp only. Honor points for HK farms make sense. Discount Honor/Conquest vendors might be cool... differing slightly by zone, achievement for collecting a special item from each of the vendors on a continent.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

OK, maybe a full group of discount JP/VP/Honor/Conquest vendors

but it'd be hard to win, the fight would be so wide spread and you'd have to hold the towers you claim till you have a majority and then 5 more min

the reason for 5 more min is maybe have an achev for getting all of the zones, make it a steped acheve, like majority +1, +2... +all

Also it might make a good reason for flying PVP vehicles, to help get people to another tower

And as to the issues
Short fights, the whole event would be untimed so if its at 50/50 and people give up someone could sneak in and grab 1 tower

Make the runs like on battle grounds when you've died attacking or defending a tower

As it'd be so spread out it'd take some time to win and the fight could go back and forth as you and a group of good players try to go take another tower and some bads are defending a tower you just claimed, also when the 2hours inbetween are up have the towers go neutral and port anyone standing on one away so no one has an advantage at the start.

The idea is make the fight interesting for PVP'ers and Pve'ers though not critical, so people would get into it but wouldn't feel they must do it, but then a guild might say, hay we have a new member lets get the vendors open to us so we can gear the newbe, or we have people leveling lets make it easier to get em to 90, or we need more flasks lets go get that zone so our herber can farm faster, ect

so some would want one zone's perks but would need to win to hold the perk for two hours.



Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

The only angle they should take on "making it fun for PvErs" is to make them feel like they are missing out on a major portion of the game by not engaging in PvP. No justice or valor points/vendors... leave those in the capital cities.

World pvp runs counter to leveling toons. Maybe if your faction controls an area, you get level-appropriate pvp vendors or quest hubs for pvp loot? That could work. Then there would be the added incentive of "loggin' your main" to help win a zone so that you can log your new alt and do the pvp quests first for better survival. (I just realized that I'm judging this idea based on current pvp/pve gear disparity... I have no idea if my concerns matter in the MoP framework).
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.



DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

IMO it should be something like if you win you'll progress faster

be it by saving the 4 types of points when buying stuff as that seems like a good genral perk for wining the whole thing, then have some other perks per zone for the zones you won if your side won the whole thing.

So if you're side keeps winning you might want to focus on the zone you want the perk from, to help level you prof or to level an alt faster, or to gather matts for something

IMO my idea would mean a small discount on VP/JP/honor/Conquest points so if your capped you might be able to buy 1 more item, maybe a 2200 item would become 1900 just a small bit but just enough so maybe you get 1 more item that week, and then your guild gets gears that much faster so you can do the current tier faster



Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

said by DarkLogix:

IMO my idea would mean a small discount on VP/JP/honor/Conquest points so if your capped you might be able to buy 1 more item, maybe a 2200 item would become 1900 just a small bit but just enough so maybe you get 1 more item that week, and then your guild gets gears that much faster so you can do the current tier faster

frankly, I find the mixing of pve and pvp rewards to be a horrible model for 2 reasons:
--it blurrs the lines between PvP and PvE servers. If the rewards and such are purely pvp centric, then there is nothing "missing" from the PvE servers.
--It encourages bad pvp. You get PvE geared folks trying to do pvp just for pve gear. It makes for bad pvp and horrible pvp experiences for those who don't want to pvp.

we already have the means to convert pvp currency to pve currency... so there is no need to make any singular even pay out both. Pvp earns Honor... PvE earns Valor... and if you want to convert the currencies for whatever reason you use a vendor to do so.
--
Immergruen (resto/kitty) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

I'd rather hang out with friends and collect gear, mounts, and achievements that don't require me to beat up on the weaker kid.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

Well you wouldn't be earing points just a limited time discount on spending them.

and you wouldn't have people autoflaged for pvp but if they aren't flaged then they couldn't capture the tower, and if they sneak on the tower unflaged then flagging themselves would port them away.

So the Pve'ers that don't want to PVP the reward would be minimal, but a nice perk for top guilds who hopefully would pvp with pvp gear to get the towers, because pve geared would be cannon foder.

For It would be something on all servers just optional so if you want to take part go for it if not don't, if you're a Pve'er and crap at pvp let the Pvp'ers get it done or become cannon foder.

you wouldn't have the limit on numbers that TB/WG had just all out server wide war for however long it takes, if there are a few bad Pve'ers pvping well they likely won't be in your party unless you invite them.

Also it'd be interesting to see some freshly respawned PVP'er running across the feild to get to the tower while some PvE'er is herbing or questing, so it'd server to liven things up



Arthritis

join:2011-10-20
Canada
reply to Immer

Firstly, I have no real idea what Blizzard developers are thinking with this change and really none of us do and are left to speculate.

But one of the things that made Vanilla and BC enduring in my opinion is that you were actually immersed in the world. You died frequently while levelling from mobs every day…show of hands, who hasn’t been roflstomped by a Murloc?

And just when you were starting to get powerful and in the 50’s, you’d meet other characters in quest zones that would wipe you out. You’d call for help and hope it came, and if not you travelled to another zone where you could hopefully quest in peace.

There was a sense of immersion and paranoia right out of the gate. You were in an actual world, and you could get eliminated pretty quickly if you weren’t careful. There were consequences for your actions, among your faction and your enemies. A whole faction of races hated your very being for being who you were and would kill you on site if they could, but at the same time respected you as a feared warrior of your faction were you to be successful. Reputations and followings were built on actions and conduct, not videos and sponsorship. It forced you to band together for a common goal of survival, it forced camaraderie and respect among your server mates. Guilds were a necessity for a survival as you gained levels No faction changes, no name changes, no heirlooms. All were equal, and separated only by skills and by loot pillaged as through adventures we undertook in the world. Titles were hard, hell….. healing was hard.

I enjoy the storyline of Wow immensely and the way it’s been presented in game. But since Wrath, I went from feeling part of a living, breathing storyline to feeling like a production worker. It lost some of that magic for me. This is my hope for Mists, that some of that magic returns.

And I have to respectfully disagree…PvP is most certainly enduring in the world of Warcraft storyline…..you’re at war, and there have been many injustices and atrocities committed by both factions. Still waters can run very deep, and there is a player base that will try to find the odd zone where your race has to pay for the actions of your forefathers. And when you ask for help, you might be amazed at how quickly people respond and an all-out war can break out over one tiny little NPC.

It’s not to be an asshat, it’s revenge for what you and those who fly your banners have done. I would expect someone of an opposing faction to swing an axe at me should we happen to be at the same NPC at any given point in time. Not because they can, but because they should. If we land at the same node to gather, we should have to fight for it…we’re both trying to feed ourselves and our brothers and use that profit for further adventures.

I believe at the end of the day, at max level you should be able to choose what path you want to take…PvE, PvP or a mixture of both, you’ve certainly earned that right. But in the journey to that end game is going to be hard for your, and so it should be. I’m thinking this is what Blizzard is trying to recapture.


Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to Immer

All you need to do to promote world PVP is just have intersecting quest hubs, and dont allow flying mounts. Thats it rly. Just make sure the quests provide adequete incentives so that people keep doing them. Thats it, the rest will work itself out. I am not a fan of zangamarsh tower capture type world pvp because then you get into server inbalance issues. Even if you provide an awesome bonus to whoever is holding it the faction that is getting killed all the time is just going to get sick of it and not even try anymore. Firelands dailies was the best world pvp that Cata had, but it was an instanced zone so I know thta they can do a lot better.


Josof

join:2010-10-23
Virginia Beach, VA
reply to Arthritis

said by Arthritis:

There was a sense of immersion and paranoia right out of the gate. You were in an actual world, and you could get eliminated pretty quickly if you weren’t careful. There were consequences for your actions, among your faction and your enemies. A whole faction of races hated your very being for being who you were and would kill you on site if they could, but at the same time respected you as a feared warrior of your faction were you to be successful. Reputations and followings were built on actions and conduct, not videos and sponsorship. It forced you to band together for a common goal of survival, it forced camaraderie and respect among your server mates. Guilds were a necessity for a survival as you gained levels No faction changes, no name changes, no heirlooms. All were equal, and separated only by skills and by loot pillaged as through adventures we undertook in the world. Titles were hard, hell….. healing was hard.

agreed

Back then, people and guilds built reputations on their servers. On the RPPvP server i played on there were KoS list for certain opposing players and guilds. It really enhanced the immersion factor within the game.

--
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat." - Sun Tzu