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guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
reply to Draiman

Re: Garage addition

That's some serious foundation work .... I would be amazed if your cost target is meet. Seem most of it is due to the elevation change and you have basically a huge retaining wall

I'll be watching your updates with interest!



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to natedj

said by natedj:

I'm a little confused now. Looking back on the PDF the OP posted, there are "A" sheets and "S" sheets signifying architectural and structural sheets, if there were already architectural drawings then why would anyone have structural drawings done and not have them sealed? I guess that the OP thought the city won't require a seal and he choose the cheaper way out, but shame on the engineer that charge that much to stamp a set of drawings that came out of his own office.

OP doesn't handle that stuff. That's the GC's job.


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to guppy_fish

said by guppy_fish:

That's some serious foundation work .... I would be amazed if your cost target is meet. Seem most of it is due to the elevation change and you have basically a huge retaining wall

I'll be watching your updates with interest!

Cost target wouldn't have been meet with that foundation. The bugeted amount is $14,000 for the foundation (concrete/steel/excavation) but that super foundation came in at $35,000 so neither I or the GC were going to eat the extra $21,000. That prompted the GC to question it in great detail which lead to the realization that the engineer messed up. The engineer was assuming stuff that wasn't correct. Lucky for me the engineer made a mistake so the new foundation will come in on budget and we'll have a revised stamped drawing Monday.

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by Draiman:

That prompted the GC to question it in great detail which lead to the realization that the engineer messed up. The engineer was assuming stuff that wasn't correct. Lucky for me the engineer made a mistake so the new foundation will come in on budget and we'll have a revised stamped drawing Monday.

Something doesn't pass the sniff test when licensed PE are being corrected by a GC.

If the above is true, do you trust your revised plans won't have a foundation collapse due to shifting of the soil? What tests were done on the soil to warrant the first or second methods for the retaining wall?

While its tempting to want to start your project, you should be 100% certain that your foundation plans will stand the test of time, not meet an arbitrary need of a budget


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by guppy_fish:

said by Draiman:

That prompted the GC to question it in great detail which lead to the realization that the engineer messed up. The engineer was assuming stuff that wasn't correct. Lucky for me the engineer made a mistake so the new foundation will come in on budget and we'll have a revised stamped drawing Monday.

Something doesn't pass the sniff test when licensed PE are being corrected by a GC.

If the above is true, do you trust your revised plans won't have a foundation collapse due to shifting of the soil? What tests were done on the soil to warrant the first or second methods for the retaining wall?

While its tempting to want to start your project, you should be 100% certain that your foundation plans will stand the test of time, not meet an arbitrary need of a budget

I think you misunderstood something along the way. The engineer designed something that was never intended to be built. He designed a 27' x 28' foundation and was asked to design a 11' x 28' foundation. 16' of earth extra changes everything. 100% trust the revised plans will be fine.


builderbob

@cox.net
reply to Draiman

i didn't read all your posts but after looking at your PDF are engineer and designer same firm? if so, i would be having a serious conversion with pe asking what basis for the 35k foundation? bad soil, second floor+auto+etc load, retaining wall requirement. for what they charged to stamp and the PDF foundation error makes has me wondering if your plans are engineered correctly? is this their first rodeo?

would be interesting to see outside view of back and side yard looking away from garage.

welcome to my world.


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Draiman

said by Draiman:

He designed a 27' x 28' foundation and was asked to design a 11' x 28' foundation. 16' of earth extra changes everything. 100% trust the revised plans will be fine.

Don't you need a foundation for the full garage? 11'x28' might be a retaining wall, but you still would need footer for the remaining perimeter and 4' off vertical to be below the frost line?


Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

3 edits

said by guppy_fish:

said by Draiman:

He designed a 27' x 28' foundation and was asked to design a 11' x 28' foundation. 16' of earth extra changes everything. 100% trust the revised plans will be fine.

Don't you need a foundation for the full garage? 11'x28' might be a retaining wall, but you still would need footer for the remaining perimeter and 4' off vertical to be below the frost line?

There is an existing foundation now. They are just extending it. The engineer assume we were going to remove the existing foundation and redo it from scratch when he was TOLD we were going to tie into the existing foundation and extend it. The engineer really messed up bad on this one. A fine example of poor communication. Basically what it amounts to is they're going back to the original design more or less with 36" x 12" footings. The piece of the puzzle I didn't mention yet is the original engineer who did the 36" x 12" footing had 2 deaths in his family. His mom and someone else so he delayed the project 3 weeks and was fired. The new engineer did his own thing without listening which increased the foundation 300% so now that he understands it's going back to what the original engineer designed. The only difference is that this new engineer likes to add overkill on drainage. Murphy loves me long time!

Edit: You can see in the picture the red part is the new foundation. The old foundation needs to be extended out a little in the front as well but it's not holding earth like the side wall. The new engineer designed the foundation to hold earth on 3 sides for a 27' x 28' for some reason. The drawing clearly show the old foundation staying and a new foundation being built so no idea why he assumed different and redesigned the foundation.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

1 edit

n/m



AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

I'm sorry Draiman See Profile : I shouldn't be teasing at your or your project team's expense. It looks like you all have all the bases covered. Good luck with the project and please post lots of photos.
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--
The preceding posting is null and void in Arizona and any other jurisdiction where prohibited by law.


guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Draiman

So your new garage addition will have 2/3'rds of the floor from the existing structure?. That would seem to be challenging as you will have to excavate the current end of the garage for the new 11x27 stuff while making sure nothing comes loose under the current slab.

Please post pictures as they do this, will be very interesting to watch and learn!



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
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4 edits

said by guppy_fish:

So your new garage addition will have 2/3'rds of the floor from the existing structure?. That would seem to be challenging as you will have to excavate the current end of the garage for the new 11x27 stuff while making sure nothing comes loose under the current slab.

Please post pictures as they do this, will be very interesting to watch and learn!

The slab will be new for the whole thing. The existing foundation walls will remain the same. They will re-compact the old foundation and level it if required so that there is a 2 1/2" slope to the entire garage floor. The idea is to reuse as much as possible but have it look and function like a new garage. No one should know it's 2 parts after I put a layer of concrete on back where the 2 foundations meet then paint it.

The plan is to build the new foundation on the side of the existing garage. Fill, compact it, and get it ready for a slab. At the same time do the front foundation wall and small wall on the left side. Once all the new foundation is ready for a slab to be poured they will demo the existing garage and old slab. They will prep that and get it ready for a new slab. Then they will pour a single 4" thick slab with a 2 1/2" slope which will complete the foundation work. They want to leave the demo to the end just to be safe that when they demo stuff the old foundation wall isn't damage at all. If it's packed by the new foundation then it can't be damaged. That's their plan anyways.

Hard to explain what the draws are doing and the plan in words. I hope that helps a little.

guppy_fish
Premium
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Lakeland, FL
kudos:1
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I understand now, so its an unknown if this will work, as when it is attempted to peel the old slab from the current foundation, one is betting it doesn't damage the current foundation. ( or find hidden damage )

I get what your trying to do now ... its seems to have risks, hopefully it will work out. What is your contingency if they pull the slab and the current foundation can't be reused?



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
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2 edits

Click for full size
Click for full size
They know it will work. Everyone is just overly cautious these days. Unless they find a landfill, toxin material, dead bodies, or something else there will be no issues. It's just dirt under there. That's like me just having the slab removed and re-poured. I can do that tomorrow without any problems to the foundation. The walls are the only variable but have survived over 50 years so far. They just want to pack them in first to be safe. The only risk right now is they might have to redo the existing foundation wall on the front left corner of the garage since there's a small crack there. We're talking about a 2' section of wall and the GC estimates like $750 if the building inspector makes them replace it.

The foundation wall extends up 12" above the ground. They have to remove that from the old foundation in order to pour the slab. In that process they have to cut concrete, rebar, and who knows what else. They just want to stack the deck in their favor by packing the new foundation there first so that they don't need to worry at all. If they did that work first on the exposed wall should anything happen with the vibrations it might cause damage they need to repair before the new foundation could be built. By removing that last there's zero chance of that happening.

Edit: You can see how the foundation wall comes up 12". That gutter and all that siding is being removed. The new garage will extend out 8' from that wall. That small crack may or may not be an issue when they tie the new foundation into the old foundation. On the other picture from that sidewalk out 11' is the new foundation. That foundation wall you see there is going to remain minus the 12" part that extends above the ground.

guppy_fish
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Lakeland, FL
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Reviews:
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1 recommendation

Keep this in the back of your head ....

Contractors can underbid on a job knowing the odds are in there favor that a change will be required which is not in the contract. Once your locked into a project, you lose all ability to negotiate, so what maybe a 750 dollar change, becomes 5,000 and there is nothing one can do about it.

This is why company's bid to be the lowest bid, they know there will be changes and make up for the initial low price which would be a loss on all subsequent changes.

I personally think your headed into some serious issues, it is not common to try and reuse a 50 year old foundation, for if no other reason it was built to a different code, if any code at all. You already have visible cracks and trying to "tie in" the old worth new is problematic at best.

I'm not new to this, I've build my own homes as a GC, rehabbed dozens of homes with full-time contractor hired by my business so this is just nothing more than a heads up, and I'm fully aware I don't know everything, as if I did, I would never again want to be the one making the decisions, finding the contractors and when wrong it all fall quickly out of hand budget wise.

The engineer designed a new foundation system for a reason, its the way its done. They will be happy to draw up plans for anything you want, but if it needs changes, all delays, changes, unexpected problems fall in your lap. In the end, the best plan isn't necessarily the lowest cost one, its the one with the high chance of exceeding without issues and unexpected costs



Draiman
Let me see those devil horns in the sky

join:2012-06-01
Kill Devil Hills, NC
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Draiman

Thanks for the heads up but I'm happy with the direction and choices being made. In the end stuff is being done the best it can be and there is no compromise. The GC knows I have a lawyer on retainer whom I'd be happy to get involved if he tries anything. The GC is also planning this to be a 'Model' for other customers to see. We've agreed to show it off for a few months after it's done. He plans to take pictures of the garage at various stages and would like a testimonial for marketing materials with my permission of course when it's all done. In the end this GC was the most expensive out of 8 bids. We picked him for a reason and went with the highest quote for a reason.



builderbob

@cox.net

established (and responsible) contractors usually don't need to do 'Model(s)'. have you checked references, contractors liabililty/workmens comp? as i said earlier, i didn't read all the posts but after looking at your plans, 36K doesn't seem realistic for what's involved. what is agreed payout schedule?


Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

4 edits

1 recommendation

said by builderbob :

established (and responsible) contractors usually don't need to do 'Model(s)'. have you checked references, contractors liabililty/workmens comp? as i said earlier, i didn't read all the posts but after looking at your plans, 36K doesn't seem realistic for what's involved. what is agreed payout schedule?

Pepsi, Ford, Hilton, etc. don't need to advertise either but they do. They pump tons into advertising for a reason. I'd never jump on a high horse and say anything like an "established/responsible anyone doesn't need to advertise'. That's hogwash. The OP said 59k also. No idea where you got that $36k from but guessing by your statement that you didn't read most of the posts that explains that.

Way to many people want to add way to much to something they clearly shouldn't as of late. I highly doubt anyone here has the expertise and knowledge to comment on this project. I mean all we have is some plans and a few pictures that don't show anything really. No way to draw a conclusion about the status of the foundation based on those pictures seriously. Let the OP do his thing, just sit back and watch. Offer advise when asked. I'm sure if they wanted advise on the project as a whole they would have asked for it but they haven't. They did sign with a contractor and completely designed it before even posting here so that says a lot right there.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

a lot of us here have a lot of experience


guppy_fish
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Lakeland, FL
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Reviews:
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1 recommendation

reply to Critsmcgee

said by Critsmcgee:

Way to many people want to add way to much to something they clearly shouldn't as of late.

SNIP

Offer advise when asked. I'm sure if they wanted advise on the project as a whole they would have asked for it but they haven't.

said by Xcal :
Any advice, tips, or things to look for during the process? I'll post pictures as the project progresses as well if anyone in interested in that.
On the very first post, the OP was looking for input. This is a forum, where people exchange ideas and opinions.

This site in general relies on moderators, which are very good at keeping things on track, if you have concerns, you can flag any post with the "hey mod's" link

As long as ones posts are civil, all discussions are equally acceptable, this is a forum, not a blog

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

2 edits
reply to AVD

said by AVD:

a lot of us here have a lot of experience

I'm sure you do but the most experienced person on the planet is useless when you only have 30% of the picture/info. The OP doesn't seem to be furnishing the complete picture just snippets. Seems like an odd thing to do if you want help. It strikes me as appeasing others while keeping them at arms length since they didn't want to go there in the first place. Just my 2 cents.

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit
reply to guppy_fish

said by guppy_fish:

said by Critsmcgee:

Way to many people want to add way to much to something they clearly shouldn't as of late.

SNIP

Offer advise when asked. I'm sure if they wanted advise on the project as a whole they would have asked for it but they haven't.

said by Xcal :
Any advice, tips, or things to look for during the process? I'll post pictures as the project progresses as well if anyone in interested in that.
On the very first post, the OP was looking for input. This is a forum, where people exchange ideas and opinions.

This site in general relies on moderators, which are very good at keeping things on track, if you have concerns, you can flag any post with the "hey mod's" link

As long as ones posts are civil, all discussions are equally acceptable, this is a forum, not a blog

They were looking for input but not what people are giving. "Anyone do anything like this recently? Any advice, tips, or things to look for during the process?" It doesn't say what do you think of this project and/or give some advise on it. It asks if anyone else has done a garage recently and asks for help on the process of working with a contractor and having it built. Nothing about the project itself. People are seeing what they want and going into left field. It's very typical in a forum for this to happen. I think the technical term is 'derailing' a thread.

guppy_fish
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Lakeland, FL
kudos:1

1 edit

1 recommendation

NM, I'll handle things with PM's next time


Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

said by guppy_fish:

Many contributors have extensive backgrounds and experiences in building structure and remodels...

I don't doubt they do. I just doubt one can give any credible advise without ALL the facts. Like you commented about a crack in the foundation but you don't know anything about it yet you assumed the OP is heading into serious issues. On what basis is that founded? I mean if one is going to offer 'expert' advice it needs to be backed by something. I just don't see how one can offer 'expert' advice with less then half the picture or info and expect it to be anything credible. Maybe you know more then what's in the thread via PM's?


whizkid3
Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9
reply to Draiman

said by Critsmcgee:

People are..going into left field. It's very typical in a forum for this to happen. I think the technical term is 'derailing' a thread.

Apparently, Critsmcgee See Profile, has decided to take it on himself to moderate the thread. No comments about the subject - just critique's of other member's posts. That is derailing a thread. If Draiman See Profile had an issue, I'm sure he would have let us know. That being said, back to the subject...

Great thread. Very enjoyable & interesting discussion of the trials and tribulations that Draiman See Profile is dealing with. Openness and straightforwardness in answering commenter's questions. I like the garage layout. The only thing I would have done differently, is to have a single two-car wide, garage door; and some extra width on the right side, to the right side of the garage door (i.e. to store equipment, junk, what-have-you on the right. Could probably also be accomplished by having the single wide door. What do you think about those ideas, Draiman See Profile?


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by whizkid3:

said by Critsmcgee:

People are..going into left field. It's very typical in a forum for this to happen. I think the technical term is 'derailing' a thread.

Apparently, Critsmcgee See Profile, has decided to take it on himself to moderate the thread. No comments about the subject - just critique's of other member's posts. That is derailing a thread. If Draiman See Profile had an issue, I'm sure he would have let us know. That being said, back to the subject...

And you just didn't do the same thing? Had nothing to do with the garage topic.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
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North, VA
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Reviews:
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reply to guppy_fish

guppy_fish See Profile

Allow me to be more direct, at BBR we don't self elevate members to moderate the direction of any thread.

quote:
No we don't, but we have several who try to appoint themselves thread monitors
If the OP isn't happy with the content provided, he or a moderator can redirect the focus.
quote:
the OP and Moderator are in control of this
Your relatively new here at BBR, so FYI, this is the way it works, or so It has for the 8+ years I have been an active member.
quote:
IMO this would have been better said in a private IM instead of a chastise on the board itself. You are directing this to the new poster yet ignoring the excesses and transgressions by some regular posters including myself at times. The new poster is not all wrong and everyone else innocent
Many contributors have extensive backgrounds and experiences in building structure and remodels and everything I have read has been to the subject, well with the exception of the posts I'm replying too.
quote:
Many do but also many don't yet think they have the knowledge and expertise. Some of the advice I've seen is scary, wrong and some is downright dangerous. If a person truly does not have the knowledge then they should not be giving advice or stating what someone posts is wrong.
I have had I'M's with the OP, which he initiated based on my postings. Not once has the OP indicated he indicated he would like less in what members have contributed.

Again, if your feel something doesn't belong, the "hey mods" is the path we use here at BBR to raise your concerns
quote:
Additionally we can just ignore the thread or post or use the "ignore" button instead of raising a stink. We don't have to stick our opinions in every topic posted especially the ones solely designed to reply negatively to someone. We are supposed to be civilized and tolerant of other viewpoints and beliefs.
Apparently the OP and Moderator have no problems with the thread as they have not made comments or deleted off topic posts so why is anyone else?


DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
Premium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
reply to Jack_in_VA

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by whizkid3:

said by Critsmcgee:

People are..going into left field. It's very typical in a forum for this to happen. I think the technical term is 'derailing' a thread.

Apparently, Critsmcgee See Profile, has decided to take it on himself to moderate the thread. No comments about the subject - just critique's of other member's posts. That is derailing a thread. If Draiman See Profile had an issue, I'm sure he would have let us know. That being said, back to the subject...

And you just didn't do the same thing? Had nothing to do with the garage topic.

And in turn aren't you doing the exact same thing? Who cares??
--
Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net

Critsmcgee

join:2011-12-02
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to whizkid3

said by whizkid3:

The only thing I would have done differently, is to have a single two-car wide, garage door; and some extra width on the right side, to the right side of the garage door (i.e. to store equipment, junk, what-have-you on the right. Could probably also be accomplished by having the single wide door. What do you think about those ideas, Draiman See Profile?

If you go to a single garage door would you go with engineered supports to eliminate the columns? My understanding is when you go with columns you go with 2 doors otherwise you get a column in the middle of the single door.