ViperCertified Home Inspector
join:2012-03-22
Toronto | reply to nunya
Re: A/C breaker issue said by nunya:Just a single example of thousands available. Now, stop spreading your disinformation.
First of all you cant tell people what to do. Who made you in charge here? Second of all, you call yourself a master electrician and you have no work to do except for sitting on line all day long and trying to prove others wrong.
Me - however have places to go and people to meet today. You sit here, behind a computer and I have a couple of inspections to do for the day. Its $500 an inspection and debating with an online 'anonymous' is not worth my time.
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Certified Home Inspector
Certified Level 1 Thermographer |
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI Reviews:
 ·callwithus
·Callcentric
| Well, I feel for your customers and only hope that your non-electrical advice is more fact-based than what you've shown here. That table you showed looks like the one hanging from the ceiling at Home Depot to show what's "needed" for different types of circuits -- a general guideline at best and quite often incorrect. |
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 mix
join:2002-03-19
Utica, MI | reply to Viper
Viper, are you one of those Toronto area home inspectors I see Mike Holmes lose his hair over on HGTV? |
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 Nick_LPremium
join:2003-01-22
Pittsburgh, PA | reply to Viper
said by Viper:A 15A breaker for a 2.5 ton unit is definitely an undersized breaker situation. Jesus, you put your regular lightening, receptacles (approx. 12) on a 15 amp breaker not an entire air conditioning unit.
Dude, for your own sake, stop digging while you can still see the top of the hole!
You're not only wrong, you are demonstrably wrong and the above quote proves it. What does lighting load (resistive) have to do with motor (capacitive) load?
Additionally, while no one is perfect nunya and whizkid are two of the most expert and respected posters here and give thoughtful, accurate and VERIFYABLY correct information time after time. Shhhh, you might learn something. |
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 DannyZGentoo FanboyPremium
join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA | said by Nick_L:Additionally, while no one is perfect nunya and whizkid are two of the most expert and respected posters here and give thoughtful, accurate and VERIFYABLY correct information time after time. Shhhh, you might learn something.
But it's been sooooo entertaining watching Viper  make a complete ass out of himself 
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Out the 10BaseT, through the modem, down the co-ax, over the fiber, across the backhaul, past the edge router, off the network...nothing but net |
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Mr Matt
join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
kudos:1 Reviews:
 ·CenturyLink
 ·Comcast
·Embarq Now Centu..
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It is important that you check to see if there is an unknown load on the circuit that the A/C is connected to. My parents had a problem like you describe. It turns out that the circuit feeding the second floor bedroom outlet that the A/C was plugged into also fed an outlet in the basement.
Long before my parents purchased the A/C they purchased a chest freezer, and installed it in the basement. It turns out that the freezer was plugged it into the same circuit as the outlet the A/C was plugged into on the second floor. If the A/C started when the freezer was running the breaker would trip.
The problem would have been more difficult to determine if the freezer did not have a pilot light that remained on at all times the freezer was receiving power. When I went downstairs to reset the circuit breaker I noticed that the pilot lamp was off. As long as the freezer was unplugged the circuit breaker did not trip. I used a heavy duty extension cord to connect the freezer to a different outlet in the basement. Problem solved.
A clamp on amp meter would be useful in accessing whether or not there is an unknown load on that circuit but would be harder to track down if the load is intermittent. |
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You probably shouldn't be giving advice or trying to discredit experts in their fields. Nonetheless, many here seem to think, as you do, that Google makes them experts in all things.
The manufacturers of A/C equipment have already calculated the minimum circuit ampacity and the maximum over current protective device for the equipment. I can guarantee you they didn't use your little chart. |
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 dosdoxiesPremium
join:2004-12-15
Wallingford, PA | reply to mix
said by mix:Viper, are you one of those Toronto area home inspectors I see Mike Holmes lose his hair over on HGTV?
I was just thinking the same thing. |
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TheMGPremium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:1 | reply to Viper
said by Viper:A 15A breaker for a 2.5 ton unit is definitely an undersized breaker situation. Jesus, you put your regular lightening, receptacles (approx. 12) on a 15 amp breaker not an entire air conditioning unit.
15A @ 120V is not the same as 15A @ 240V!!!
Let's see...
15A*120V= 1800VA (max 1440VA continuous)
15A*240V= 3600VA (max 2880VA continuous)
Not the same. |
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 whizkid3Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9 | reply to Viper
said by Viper:A 15A breaker for a 2.5 ton unit is definitely an undersized breaker situation. Just saying this without mentioning the voltage at all, does not really demonstrate knowledgeability. Neither does picking a fight with nunya, who is one of the most knowledgeable electricians I know. He said your little chart is crap. I agree. At best, its good for the first attempt at educating a layperson who knows nothing about how the electrical system works in a home. That's about it.
Don't knock his credentials. I normally wouldn't either, but you deserve it for placing yourself above that of a Master Electrician. You inspect homes. BFD. Just about any schnook can walk around a house checking a few boxes and then provide a disclaimer that's longer than the report and a $400 bill for basically nothing. My advice would be to not become so impressed with your own credentials. On the grand scale of technical construction careers, home inspector is about one level above being a Burger King fry clerk.
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said by alkizmo:I'm going to use my 14 SEER 2.5 ton A/C as an example.
(Ton X 12000BTU) / (SEER) / 240V = Amps
2.5 ton X 12000 BTU / 14 / 240 = 8.92A Unfortunately, Alkizmo, as much as we like you around here; you don't know what you're doing either. You can't use the average seasonal energy usage to determine the amp rating of an air-conditioner. You can get the average power or amps required, averaged over a whole cooling season. SEER is very useful for determining how much energy you will use over a cooling season. Not very useful for sizing a circuit or breaker which must work under maximum load; although doubling what you get from your calculation could work out to be a good rule of thumb estimate. Stick with the manufacturer's ratings. Nunya showed the best way to get them - check the manufacturer's specs or nameplate. |
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 alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | said by whizkid3:Unfortunately, Alkizmo, as much as we like you around here;
YAY! 
said by whizkid3:although doubling what you get from your calculation could work out to be a good rule of thumb estimate. Stick with the manufacturer's ratings. I'm only trying to show Viper that 15A on 2.5 tons SEEMS possible to meeeeeeee 
Im actually surprised, I went to re-check my A/C plate when I got home from work and the running amp rating is 14.7
20A was actually the MAX circuit protection requirement!!! I thought it was the minimum! Another thing that is wrong in this house! (It's currently on 25A fuses). |
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whizkid3Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9 | said by alkizmo:20A was actually the MAX circuit protection requirement!!! I thought it was the minimum! Another thing that is wrong in this house! (It's currently on 25A fuses).
Better double-check that. Sounds to me like the MCA (minimum circuit amps) would be about 18 to 20A; and the MOCP (maximum overcurrent protection) would be 25 or 30A. 14.7A FLA (or RLA) may be just for the compressor. Figure 1 amp for the fan (if it has a separate motor); and 0.25 A for the controls, and you get approximately:
14.7A x 125% + 1A +0.25A = 20A = MCA (minimum circuit amps) |
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 BK
join:2001-09-10
Chicago, IL | reply to Bruschi
Re: A/C breaker issue All a home inspector does is walk through the home and say "you should get that checked out" and make up numbers for how much something is going to be to repair.
If they actually provided any value, they would be liable for more then their extortionist $500 fee (for walking through a house, with a moisture meter apparently).
Feel free to look up the process to become a master electrician. Then ask yourself, does my community college course on "home inspections" stack up?
I just wish there were more whizkid's and nunya's out there, and less Viper's. Please don't become an electrician Viper.
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garys_2kPremium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI | reply to Anon
All that and still no cite on where that "really good source" table came from. I think I saw one on the back of a Wheaties box, once, that looked like that. |
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whizkid3Premium,MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY
kudos:9 | reply to Anon
said by Viper:I will be back to see the entertainment here tomorrow. 1. I have a day job in this field, which pays me more than anyone could make doing home inspections. (Which is why I don't do that instead.)
2. I have two businesses. One of which does inspections & assessments on some of the largest commercial buildings in the world. It pays substantially better than home inspection work.
3. I would post my credentials if I really felt like showing why you are one step up from being a fry clerk. But I don't feel the need to keep entertaining those with low intelligence and no class. |
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alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1 | reply to Anon
said by Viper:First of all, did that make you feel any better by degrading what a ‘burger king fry clerk’ does for a living? Have you ever done that? And just because someone is working at a burger king does not mean that he/she has lost his/her dignity. It's more like if the burger king fry clerk was arguing with a business manager about the profit margin on burger sales.
Another example I could relate to and put in a different field:
An accounting auditor arguing with me (Financial adviser) about what's the most suited type of investment or financing.
While the accountant has a lot of certificates and is also in the "financial" field, he'd be outside his expertise.
Same thing in reverse is possible, where I'd argue with the auditor about how transactions and documentation should be done. It's not my expertise.
said by Viper:Now you said, “Just about any schnook can walk around a house checking a few boxes and then provide a disclaimer that's longer than the report and a $400 bill for basically nothing.”
Well, what you said is far from truth because going under crawl spaces, walking on the roof, inspecting an attic and other things are not “basically nothing”. So I am not sure if you did not go to school but you definitely need a reality check.
What you said maybe 30% true for a house which is less than 10 years old but I guarantee you that if I take anyone of you (specially that master electrician lol) to a 70 year old house in Cabbagetown, Toronto, you will start sweating in the first 5 minutes after being on site and will have no idea where to even begin. So if you want the readers to respect your posts, I would encourage you to read this a few times before replying. Home inspection is not about just electrical its about everything in the house. Look, you have to accept something about your field: Being an inspector doesn't make you an expert, or even good, in any field of construction. In my field of expertise (Mortgages), I noticed a lot of people have problems getting a reliable house inspector. Most house buyers won't have a problem with the inspection, but I will more often hear about serious issues missed by an inspector, than hearing about an inspector putting a halt on a house sale due to a serious issue (Catching the issue).
However it doesn't mean YOU can be good. I know a couple of good inspectors. Some are licensed electricians and some are structural engineers and they all admit to their limitations outside their expertise.
Just like I am a financial adviser in a bank doesn't mean I'm an expert in any specific field. I might simply know all financial products, but I won't know how to give the best advices.
If Whizkid and Nunya say you're wrong, simply educate yourself by asking why you're wrong and understanding why you're wrong. |
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 SwedishRiderRider on the StormPremium
join:2006-01-11
Connecticut
kudos:1 | said by alkizmo:If Whizkid and Nunya say you're wrong, simply educate yourself by asking why you're wrong and understanding why you're wrong.
The only caveat I would throw out there (with all due respect to Nunya and Whiz, who ARE excellent electricians with demonstrated abilities in this forum) is that sometimes it is better to consult with a local licensed tradesman rather than always take info from this or any other forum.
I have learned much from posting and interacting on this forum, but there are some times where there is no substitute for a licensed professional that is local and knows the applicable local and state codes and can come and see a problem or job firsthand. I always take the info I get here and do more research on it. But I do rely on professionals local to me when the rubber hits the road... it's only prudent to do so.
Having said that... Whiz and nunya know their stuff and I'd give their electrical advice heavy weight when evaluating a problem. |
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ViperCertified Home Inspector
join:2012-03-22
Toronto | reply to BK
If they actually provided any value, they would be liable for more then their extortionist $500 fee (for walking through a house, with a moisture meter apparently).
I have several other gadgets too besides a moisture meter.
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Certified Home Inspector
Certified Level 1 Thermographer |
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 49528867Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3 | said by Viper:I have several other gadgets too besides a moisture meter. Experience cuts gadgets. 
A true building inspector is one who has come up through the ranks and trades of construction industry, has the licensing certifications and continuing education to know what he is doing and insurance to cover his mistakes.
Wayne
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Madness takes its toll, please have exact change ready… |
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