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LitFiber

@primeeng.ca

[BC] Feasability of leasing telus fiber

Hi all,
This is my first post here so please bear with me.
I realize this is asking a lot, but I thought I'd throw it out there...

I'm trying to determine the feasibility and cost of leasing a small (10km) section of fiber for communication between some electrical distribution equipment.

The idea is that we would run our own fiber up to the existing fiber and 'tap' into it. We would then have the distribution equipment 'tap' into the fiber at another point, thus, giving us communication between the two devices.

We are looking at potentially leasing a dedicated line between the two (preferred), or, alternatively, providing internet access at these two points and communicating via the internet.

Any other communication options are being considered, but they must operate reliably under a power outage.

I've put in a request with Telus, but I have no idea how long it will take them to get back to me on this.

Does anyone have any insight on this?
Thanks



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

TELUS does not provide dark fibre services
If you'd like a fibre WAN connection I can quote it out but expect a couple grand minimum
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:2
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to LitFiber

How much bandwidth do you need? I assume the data you'd be transferring is control/status/monitoring information?

POTS is typically quite reliable during power outages. If you can cram the information you need into a dial-up connection, that should do the trick. Definitely the best cost/reliability factor.



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

if they don't need the bandwidth but want an SLA a T1 would be the better way to go. Sure it costs more BUT for a lot of customers having the guarantees are important



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

I wouldn't suggest T1's at all. They are about as "managed" at Telus ADSL lines. Needless to say, there are cheaper and easier ways to get what you need. What exactly are you looking for? A direct WAN, or a link between the sites, or possibly both? I've had such bad experience with Telus T1's and even their fiber in certain area's of Calgary is terrible. Really need more info on exactly what you need. Certain size pipe, unmetered, etc.



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

We're definitely working with limited information here so recommending an appropriate solution is difficult.
I understand that you had issues with T1's before but there's a reason why they exist and a reason major corporations choose TELUS fibre.
In addition there's a huge difference in having an account manager within TELUS AND going it alone within the organization.
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Unfortunately the majority of major corporations are still with Telus is due to a long term contract with their fiber circuit. I could name off a few larger ones in Calgary that will be switching once the contract is done. All of which DO have an account manager, however they provide little no support and simple shrug it off. Why would they bother to look into constant network connectivity issues? That really isn't their job, nor do they care. Once the signature is signed, it's a nice fat stream of money rolling in.

Edit: I didn't think you could get a managed circuit of any sort without an account manager? Only way is if you were reselling and Telus provides the backbone, but the termination is done by the resellers. What do I know though, I just have to deal with Telus outages/speed issues atleast once a week on $1,350-5K circuits.



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

So you're saying those corporations have not ever had to renew their contracts with TELUS
It's not the AM's job to fix a problem... It's our job to escalate it if it's not being fixed.if they're not fixing it then you escalate to director level then VP evel. there's no excuse for it to not be working.
Typically there is one involved at least to get the contracts written up... That doesn't mean they're assigned specially to your company. if you're assigned to them, they're responsible for the relationship as a whole....regardless the am that did the contracts should assist in a reactive fashion (if your unassigned)
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.



LitFiber

@primeeng.ca
reply to LitFiber

Thanks for the responses everyone.
This isn't exactly my specialization, but was asked to look into it...

We require very little bandwidth for this application. This will be used for control/monitoring of electrical distribution equipment from a remote site.

POTS refers to plain old telephone correct?

The reason we need fiber is electrical isolation between the two sites.

Ultimately, we would like an internet connection at the remote site as well.

We are also considering getting an internet connection at the two locations and then VPN between the two.

In this case, is it feasible to run our fiber up to the existing fiber, somehow splice into it for an internet connection, then do the same for the distribution equipment that is further down the existing fiber (pole mounted) to get another internet connection?



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

I would suggest T1 in that case... lower in speed than fibre but also lower cost and minimal install fees (no fibre build needed)

What kind of distances are you talking about?

If you build a WAN connection within TELUS you would not require VPN.
If you have multiple locations, do a big fibre pipe to your main office (100meg or so) then do a WAN either on T1 or Fibre to your multiple locations.
This setup would provide significantly better reliability as well as all the routing/traffic would be "internal" AND all the locations would share the larger pipe at the main office.

Another option would be to use managed IT services and have your servers etc hosted internally within TELUS... when that happens the download and/or upload would automatically be 100meg so you'd be able to push or pull as fast as you'd need.
It would be hosted in one of TELUS' data centres (which BTW were the only centres on the eastern seaboard that had 100% uptime during the major outages in 2003). It would also provide automated backup of your servers to another site so you would have that redundancy.

If I'm slightly off with the above info, forgive me... I'm not an engineer BUT have access to them if needed

feel free to register and PM me if you'd like...
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.



pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC
reply to LitFiber

TELUS managed service is superb, rustydusty most likely never used the service. :|
--
The more I C, the less I see.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Several clients have managed ADSL2, bonded T1's and fiber circuits. All of which have had regular with outages, packet loss and terrible speed issues. I'm not getting into it, it's a waste of time. I have the personal experience and because of it, would never suggest any Telus managed service to any client from this point forward. Also, T1's are not cheaper at all. $1,380.00/month for 4 bonded T1's at one location. That ain't cheap for a petty 6x6.

Enjoy


WhosTheBosch

join:2009-12-02
reply to LitFiber

Why are the business speeds so ridiculously slow?



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10
reply to rustydusty

Why do they have 4 T1's instead of a Fibre connection?
Again.... A T1 is not for speed, it's for reliability. If you're getting it for speed you're nuts.
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10
reply to WhosTheBosch

What speed and what service are you talking about



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Fiber build costs. Do get fiber into a building where the nearest cabinet is 5KM away, is not cheap. T1's are extremely old and can run on old cabling, you should know this. I'm still blown away the price Telus charges on T1's, especially considering after having 1 or 2 going down on a constant basis and not letting us know. What exactly does Telus manage on their managed circuits? I haven't received one phone call on not one outage at any clients. I've been the one to call and inform them of the issue. From my understanding, they monitor the line for sync issues, speed issues and complete outages. If that's the truth, why have I not gotten one call? If Telus is someone's only option, I suggest Teksavvy to a client as they can atleast do mlppp over a few lines.



JammerMan79
Premium,VIP
join:2004-05-13
Prince George, BC
kudos:10

so TELUS is providing a service to you and using 4 times the infrastructure that it would typically take... because the company chooses not to pay for the fibre build.
I'm sorry but complaining about the cost of 4 T1's? really?
What was the build cost BTW? do you recall?
If you're having issues with the T1's find out the AM that did the contract and ask them to get it escalated, if they don't.. ask their director... if they don't ask their VP
I can personally guarantee any of my customers a phone call from my director and VP and if you're really having those issues (and you're someone that actually matters on the account - owner, executive etc) you'll get a call.
--
I may work for, but do not necessarily represent the views and beliefs of TELUS Communications.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Do you remember when T1's came out? Sometime in the 1950's from what I remember. Explain to me how they could possibly charge $200+ for a 1.5Mb symetrical line when you can 50x5 for $100/month and has BETTER uptime than a "managed" T1. If they actually managed their services, called me if they noticed issues on the line and immediatly called me upon an outage, then it MAY be worth the extra money. Spending time trying to get issues escalated for 5 clients would take hours of my time. Easier solution, switch providers as myself and the client have wasted enough time and money on Telus services. Having this many issues across such a large area is embarrassing on Telus' part. You keep saying to escalate things, well try being on the client side, or better yet my side. Having to sit down for a couple days to sort out the issues for numerous clients in Edmonton, Red Deer and Calgary would be an utter waste of time. Especially considering I've wasted enough time, and no one should have to spend this much time to get a quality service. What exactly do they clients pay $1300-5K a month for exactly if they have to be on the phone every month? Bottom line, the service is terrible and no one should have to spend the massive amount of money for such a terrible service.

Build cost for the T1's was dirt cheap, especially compared to the build cost for fiber.



pfak
Premium
join:2002-12-29
Vancouver, BC

said by rustydusty:

Build cost for the T1's was dirt cheap, especially compared to the build cost for fiber.

You get what you pay for. Additionally, I don't believe you're actually a TELUS customer because if you're paying for managed service and it's this bad they will fix it for you.

Tons of yelling on these forums, and no action as far as I can tell from your side. If you have a number of clients with TELUS service in Alberta, that are all paying >$1000/mo, all you would need to do is snap your fingers to get the issue resolved.

Maybe you should jump ship to Shaw Business Solutions and pay the same build out costs for the fiber service?
--
The more I C, the less I see.


rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB

Since you are obviously the genious, please explain to me which way to "snap my fingers" to get things resolved. I would gladly take any advice, other than call in and try and get things escalated. This has been done numerous times and gotten absolutely no where. I would gladly provide account numbers, address, contact for the service to a client if someone at Telus could guarantee, for sure 100% that things would once and all be resolved and they wouldn't stop until the service had the 99.4% uptime, 25Mb fiber circuit we have been promised. This is just one client, but they are a major one in Calgary, just off 32nd East.

We are looking at Shaw, Nucleus, etc for possible options instead, don't worry. All available options are being persued, including Teksavvy and bonding lines for some descent speeds.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

My 50Mb Shaw Business over coax has been rock solid compared to some 5k fiber circuits in Calgary. Explain that one, anyone, please cause it really doesn't make a client happy to know my $150/month cable line has way better speeds and uptime that their 5k/month fiber to server room.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Here's is the 25Mb fiber circuit in Calgary, Alberta at 1:38AM. No one is on location, back ups are done remotely and have finished and nothing is using the connection except my RDP into the terminal server. Absolutely embarrassing, can't even hit 15Mb on a "25Mb" managed line. I'll try and dig up the firewall logs showing the outages the past 30 days. Overall time is around 34 hours last month and 5 being during work hours. Terrible, terrible service. Call in and they said they were "working on it".



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Here's the 4 - T1's in RD at 1:48AM. Same thing, nothing going on WAN side except my RDP.



gthunter

@telus.net

Sorry but I have to call BS on the 4 - t1 speedtest


danf

join:2005-11-10
Abbotsford, BC

FWIW, we have both Telus managed service (in our case, ADSL) and Shaw in our head office.

I can tell you that in the 5 years we've had the Telus service there was only two problems, one they phoned me about, and the other was some dipshit with a backhoe. I phoned in to report the latter but they knew about it and were investigating already.

We have frequent problems with Shaw with latency. Prior to having both Telus and Shaw we had multiple Telus services and had zero issues with latency.

I would recommend the Telus managed service to anyone. Even if they do have to do maintenance on our circuit, I get an email a couple weeks in advance stating when it will happen and how long the circuit is expected to be affected so I can plan around it.

Also, the tech support for Telus managed service is light-years ahead of Shaw. I had an issue with the Shaw circuit and phoned the Shaw business support line and had to wait 70 minutes to talk to someone. Contrasted with Telus, where I phoned the front line support who created a ticket (no hold time) and had a call from the next level of support in less than 15 minutes.

This is the Business service from Shaw ($300/month) so it's VERY disappointing. I was expecting support levels like what I experienced from Telus in the past. The only reason we moved one to Shaw was for the speed but I'm not sure it's worth it considering the latency issues we've experienced.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber

Call what you want, I can find pictures of the 4 boards mounted on the wall in the server room. That's great you have good support on your ADSL packages, now take that and imagine paying a lot more money a month for the better speeds, and not even getting close to them, or getting issues resolved. The first speedtest was on a Telus FTTB, 25Mb uncapped circuit at we can't even get 15Mb at almost 2AM. I'm glad you are getting good speeds on your ADSL, but those are minimal to a 5k fiber circuit, sorry. You can't run a 100 client corporation on a 1Mb upload connection, which is why we haven't used ADSL in years. A few RDP connections into term srv could kill that 1Mb with ease.



rustydusty

join:2009-09-29
Red Deer, AB
reply to LitFiber



White box is one of the T1 boards, rest are stacked on top. The juniper box is in the rack behind the blade. The T1's are in RD, not Calgary like the fiber.



FWIW

@208.87.54.x

We use 1Gb/s uniserve fiber which leases the lines from Telus and it's been great.