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Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
reply to DarkLogix

Re: Dead Board? An RP Adventure...

said by DarkLogix:

The solution is just make Hardmodes drop more of the same item level, and more of the legendary parts (if that tier has such) so you'd want to just to get geared for heroic faster, or later to get the new guy heroic geared faster

so say instead of dropping 2 items have it drop 6-7 on the top level 10man reg hardmode

this would
1. give more options for achevments
2. help good groups get gear faster with more item drops per boss
3. make doing legendarys faster (maybe have 2x the number of those that drop or if its really hard 3x)

But then casual players could still just grind away with the lower number of items and thus take longer to get the whole group geared.

can you imagine doing alone in the darkness because you'd get more tier head tokens dropped? and then doing alone in the darkness Heroic a few weeks later?

Also make the HM methods part of metas.

Considering that more loot isn't enough of an incentive for the vast majority of players to run 25 Man Raids outside of Looking For Raid. There are players that will do it because they prefer it and the accomplishment that goes with it but as a whole 25 Man Raids are a dying breed. Sad fact.

The reason that Hardmode content is successful is because there are some that enjoy the challenge, some that want the gear, and some that want the achievements.

Of the three above gear is probably the number one with challenge being next in line.

I prefer the toggle effect that we were given in Ulduar, the problem with a hard "switch" for an encounter is that it requires a massive amount of work. Most of those encounters differed wildly from normal to hard, which isn't to say that later variations in ICC or during this expansion are all the same regardless of mode (they aren't), but there was a massive amount of imagination that went into the encounters and the differences between normal and hard versions which can't really be said for anything later. Often times it is just inflation of health and damage, slight mechanic changes, but you didn't have massive differences between versions like you did on XT-002, as an example.

Therefore, more work.

Bottom line is, it won't happen. I'll watch 25 Man Raids go to 20 or 15 Man Raids before I see a double hard mode variant included on every encounter with the only justified reward being more loot.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

1 edit
I do agree its unlikely, but it would be awsome IMO
25man's would drop even more gear at the same ulduar like toggle, while heroic would drop higher ilvl (like it does now) then with the double heroic hard mode you'd get lots of heroic level gear.

I really hope they don't downsize the larger raid size

and can you imagine say 10man hard mode dropping say 5-6 pieces of gear? and add in the un-nerfing NPC and have that cause cause more epic trash dropps as well as maybe 1 more piece of boss gear.

so patterns would become more likely to drop, a good gould that likes challenge and can do it could get ready for heroic sooner or if on heroic get ready to progress faster, you'd be able to do legendaries faster (imagine say 2-3 eternal embers from a 10man boss)

I think if they did do it it's make the raids last longer (I mean as in more months that its still fun, and would mean Blizz could make heroic even harder because it could be expected that you could have full current ilvl gear before moving to heroic, and with say the number of raids I mentioned then if you did all hard modes on a raid you'd get enough drops that (assuming some luck) you'd have everyone geared)

it might even be a good way to not have to even have the un-nerf NPC because you wouldn't have to nerf it, just say oh just do the low mode for now.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
If the goal is to make content last longer then the attunement system should return to gate content, hardmode should be removed and become borderline base difficulty for everything aside from LFR. Go look at the kill dates during TBC and compare hem to Wrath. Hardmodes were successful in stemming back world first kills on generally final bosses but back in the day that was just baseline. The content patch for Black Temple came out before anyone was able to kill Kael'Thas Sunstrider by a week. Literally months after launch.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2
Yeah, it seems like in TBC normal difficulty was "hardmode"...I remember wiping on Archimonde literally hundreds of times before killing him ONCE.

I agree, attunement needs to be brought back to gate content in order to make it last longer. Difficulty needs to be increased, basically removing 'normal' mode form the game...it's not needed if there is LFR.

And I think most importantly something needs to be done about Legendary items...I'm not a big fan of 'building' a legendary...it was a novel idea in Ulduar, but now some guilds have 5+ Rogues with daggers, and a couple DKs/Warriors/Pallies with Shadowmourne when it was current. Put Legendary items back on the loot table with an insanely low drop rate...just because it is in the game doesn't mean every guild should have one...Building a Legendary, in my opinion, is no different than grinding {insert name here} points in order to buy welfare epics.
--
McBrain#1558 - Barbarian/Monk

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”


DarkLogix
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Baytown, TX
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reply to Adalicia
I would be ok with attunement, but my idea would be not attuning to enter the raid but attuning to progress in the raid

Lets take FL for example, lets put in a gate that much be opened but can only be opened by someone with say honored rep, and untill then you can't do beth (ok might have the name wrong, I mean the one before the bridge) then have another gate at rag so you can't do him on reg till revered, and on heroic you can't do him till exaulted.

I'd make the Baseline reg harder than it is now and then add "switches" to up the hardness (ie like the towers on Flame lev, the kill order, 4-0 lights, ect) and those would make it harder in exchange for the ideas I said before (so it'd be really f***ing hard) then heroic would be only a little harder that the hardest reg hard mode, ect.

can you imagine making a hardmore so hard that peragon couldn't do it till it was getting old? (and some people wouldn't be able to do hard mode even when its a teir old)

So then the "glory of the bla raider" mounts would actually be very rare, and many wouldn't get them till the following xpak.


DarkLogix
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to McBrain
said by McBrain:

And I think most importantly something needs to be done about Legendary items...I'm not a big fan of 'building' a legendary...it was a novel idea in Ulduar, but now some guilds have 5+ Rogues with daggers, and a couple DKs/Warriors/Pallies with Shadowmourne when it was current. Put Legendary items back on the loot table with an insanely low drop rate...just because it is in the game doesn't mean every guild should have one...Building a Legendary, in my opinion, is no different than grinding {insert name here} points in order to buy welfare epics.

How about do it like Rag's hammer in MC?
have the whole build quest line but then add on a low drop rate for the final part so that you might have multiple people trying for the part by the time it actually drops.

After all in MC the hammer was crafted then given a dash of awsomeness at the end.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2

1 edit
Part of the point of removing 'hardmode' is that it adds a half a tier to every tier...It is 90% responsible for the stat inflation that is/has caused so many issues in this game.

It's stupid that in vanilla fat HP was 10k, TBC fat HP was 20k, the end of wrath people were upwards of 100k in ICC, now I see tanks well over 200k...just using HP as an example, it's increased 2000% in 25 levels...not cool in my opinion.

I agree the MC hammer was cool, but I think Blizz has taken a portion of that idea and run with it. A Legendary should be legendary...not something that you are guaranteed to get after putting in x amount of time in the game. I remember seeing 1 set of Warglaives on my server in TBC...1 set (I'm sure there were more on the server, but I only remember seeing the one set), THAT was legendary.

Now you've got dudes that don't know dick about the game running around with orange weapons.
--
McBrain#1558 - Barbarian/Monk

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”


DarkLogix
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Well its my opinion there was just way to much inflation from 80-85 ignoring the gear.

heck you now have mages with more health than ICC25H tanks, ( find that funny and wrong) and that was before even getting any epics.

So atleast in cata its not the tiers that are outa wack in inflation but just the stat inflation from leveling.

If they fix that then it'd be fine, so I don't see the heroics as being at fault for nutty stat inflation.

but back in ICC they had 4 differant ilvls of gear (that was pretty wrong IMO) (10man and 25man should have the same gear just more drops for the group size (as it is now and that seems like an improvment))

so they've cut that part out by making the same gear drop and you just get more in 25, then if they did my idea for how hardmodes would effect gear (ie even more drops) instead of higher ilvl then you wouldn't be adding another half tier so that'd fix the issue there.

I do agree 200K HP is nuts but I don't blame it on the tiers but on blizz's base stat inflation (heck a mage that has nothing on at 85 has over 50k health last I checksed, and tanks outside of ICC (ie w/o the ICC buff) were a little over that, then ya they've added way to much stamina to gear.

Vinceruos_t

join:2012-05-04
reply to McBrain
Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k... Scaling only got out of hand with cataclysm. I liked the idea behind it, but instead of just raising HP they also raised all the burst damage too so it defeated the whole purpose. You can burst someone down in arena just as fast as you could in wrath.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
reply to DarkLogix
The health inflation in Cata was to stabilize the health inflation from Wrath. Your tanks always have about double health of your DPS and healers, always been that way. 10,000 HP in Vanilla to roughly 5,000, equal gear considered. 25,000 in TBC to about 13,000. Insert Wrath where 80,000 was common to 24,000. The balance is out of whack. The need for a flat HP reset became apparent. Rather than nerf a few classes ratios they buffed and increased stamina across the board. This happened because of two things, the extra inflation caused by hardmodes and the removal of crushing blows, thus causingnboss damage to become much bigger, a reliance on dodge over mitigation, and swelling health pools to compensate. Look at Gormok or Algalon, swing timers, damage output, etc.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2
reply to Vinceruos_t
I know for a fact that I've seen a tank in ICC with 30% buff over 100k HP in combat. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my point.

I agree that the numbers have been scaled up equally...but saying that, what's really the point? If the damage to health ratio is relatively the same, why the need to inflate the numbers to 2000% of the original?

It's time to scale things back...I'm sorry that it could effect gear all the way from 90 down, but base stats and stats from gear are too high. Why have 200k health and attacks that hit for 50k when you could just scale it down to 20k and 5k respectively?
--
McBrain#1558 - Barbarian/Monk

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
reply to Vinceruos_t
said by Vinceruos_t:

Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k... Scaling only got out of hand with cataclysm. I liked the idea behind it, but instead of just raising HP they also raised all the burst damage too so it defeated the whole purpose. You can burst someone down in arena just as fast as you could in wrath.

No. They didn't. Druids were hitting 80,000 in TotC 25 heroic hear, everyone else was 50,000 to 55,000 because EH was king. HP stabilized in ICC because of chill of the throne making mitigation stats over dodge stats more ideal. But by the end of 25 ICC HM 60,000 to 65,000 on a mitigation centric CTC warrior was easily possible, nevermind druids.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to Vinceruos_t
said by Vinceruos_t:

Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k...

»www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?···out-CDs)

That's just for druids...they could get ~150k with Survival Instincts up. I've seen Warriors over 100k in combat also.

This is obviously at the end of the expac when tanks were HM geared and carrying a 30% HP buff.
--
McBrain#1558 - Barbarian/Monk

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

Watermasta

join:2012-06-15
Quantico, VA
We're not talking about Cooldowns. Of course some tanks have CD's to blow that pop their health to unreasonable levels seeing as they are based on percentages.

Either way the numbers need to come down. It's a little ridiculuous. I thought the numbers for TBC was a pretty good mark.

For me, it's hard to judge what is "unhealable dmg" and what is just regular aoe healable damage.

"Oh shit this is pulsing on me for 30k dmg. Oh nevemind. I have 150k hp."


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
As a healer, I just don't care about the absolute value of the health. I'm far more concerned about the % of a person's health being removed by mob ability X... or dot Y. Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

Gains

join:2012-06-19
Saint Clairsville, OH
reply to McBrain
to be fair end of wotlk healths were lower... it's just the ICC buff made it look that higher.

I'm not arguing with the 2000% increase in 25 levels... however, if you look at the amount of content that has been released in the last 25 lvls versus the first 60 it's like a 2000% increase in content..... I'm just trying to say it doesn't really mean anything would you feel better if they'd had just increase it equally for each expansion... and we would all be level 240 right now?

the jist of it is it changes the interactions between 85 to 80's vs 60 to 55's.

This just brought me back a good memory.... I remember during classic, I was doing the ZF mallot quest to get the carrot, cause man was it hard to get a trinket back then. Anyways, basically you had to go to the hinterlands and go up this long step pyramid and infuse your mallot just so you could ring the gong... anyways at the time that step pyramid was a complete elite area... I had put together a 5 man group (tank/3dps/heals) of people that were my level. We were fighting our way up that pyramid. Then we run into a skull horde (I think he was 60) we get into this epic ~4 minute battle with him. And we end up killing him. It was epic.

So basically that'd be like 5 75's killing an 85 now days.... and i'm telling you under normal conditions that doesn't happen anymore....

On the flipside of that. Me and my 80 dk herald friend both were leveling up our mining for stamina bonus's... we both have lvl 80 cata sets... ~ITEM LVL 300. We asked a friend to summons us to deepholm, u can't get the quest for the portal there till 82, but you can be summons there at 80. I'm mining and he's herbing his other profession and a horde 85 starts taking our nodes... both of them. He calls it up in vent, he's following this guy. I'm flying to catch up with him. The 85 lands to pick another herb and we descend on him. We are no ordinary 80's, after about a minute we hand this warlock his lunch. It was pretty hilarious and alot of fun. (I had buffed before engaging, i think the dk did too... In my prot set my block is like 75% and CTC ~120 and the DK is just as nasty)


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

Big fat numbers are also stressful on the hamsters that run on exercise wheels to power the game.
--
McBrain#1558 - Barbarian/Monk

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
said by McBrain:

said by Immer:

Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

Big fat numbers are also stressful on the hamsters that run on excersize wheels to power the game.

Don't worry about them those hamsters take huge breaks and procreate alot (thus have plenty of standbys.

Also they're geneticly altered to live longer and stay healthier longer

So they gotta strees them or they'll get fat from not having to work as hard as they procreate more and more.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2
Damn you quoting me before I was cognizant enough to realize I misspelled exercise.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
reply to McBrain
Exactly which is why Blizzard has confirmed it to be a problem. Hence the possible "item squish" or "Mega damage" solutions. I understand from a healing perspective that you can get away with using percentages, the problem is the game doesn't use that in abilities, it is straight numbers. In Wrath during Arthas Soul Harvest didn't deal 75% health, it dealt 50,00 damage before any mitigation. What is easier to math out on the fly, 50,000 damage on a tank with max HP of 67,798 that is down to 39,247 HP in terms of what heal to use factoring in mana or a 10,000 damage ability on a 14,000 health tank with 6,000 HP and you know heal x will heal for 3,000. In principal ratios and percentages my stay the same but for the average player smaller numbers are easier to glance at, compute, and make snap judgements bases on. The CPU calculations are equally worrying as the larger the numbers go the more computing it has to do. Period.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


McBrain
BRB Face Melting

join:2010-05-06
Kalimdor
kudos:2
I've missed you.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Adalicia
said by Adalicia:

Period.

I was gonna keep commenting... but then... oh well.


DarkLogix
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
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reply to Adalicia
Well that does depend on the fight, I recall there are some bosses (maybe in BC) that have percent based abilities thus can still kill 85's.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
There are encounters that use that mechanic but it is just that, a mechanic. But it is just that. A mechanic. Not used every encounter.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


DarkLogix
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Baytown, TX
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I'm just saying not all are HP# based so there are some %based
IMO there should be more % based because they can kill a toon no matter the level or over gearing.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
No, think about healing implications. Percentage based incoming damage, all damage, versus specific digital numbers on out going healing in conjunction with a non static resource pool and regeneration rate.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to DarkLogix
No. contrary to what GC thinks... healer mana stress does not make healing fun. We should get to a point where gear makes content easier.... and then we get new content to have our fun back.


DarkLogix
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Baytown, TX
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reply to Adalicia
What I'd do is not all boss abilities would be % based but it'd be more common to have such, also add some AOE % based heals with a CD, to better counter those mechs

Imagine a AOE heal thats 5% per sec for 20sec

and/or an AOE heal that takes all current healing and spreads it over the whole raid regardless of position, then have a mech that for a time does lots of AOE damage and no tank damage.


Adalicia
Om Nom Nom

join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE
kudos:13
said by DarkLogix:

What I'd do is not all boss abilities would be % based but it'd be more common to have such, also add some AOE % based heals with a CD, to better counter those mechs

Imagine a AOE heal thats 5% per sec for 20sec

and/or an AOE heal that takes all current healing and spreads it over the whole raid regardless of position, then have a mech that for a time does lots of AOE damage and no tank damage.

This is how I know you've never seriously progression raided as a healer during the most stressful of encounters.

No. That doesn't sound fun, entertaining, or enjoyable. First and foremost an ability like that would be so imbalanced it wouldn't even be funny. Secondly it would require zero skill. Hit button do 100% of health healed over twenty y seconds. Currently in the MoP beta, guess what tank health pools are like? If your number is lower than 300,000 (at the low end) you're wrong.

No. Just. No.
--
Lore Nerd. Role Player. Raid Leader. Healing Priest. Slightly Annoying. Also Likes Kittens.


DarkLogix
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
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1 edit
Clearly you didn't get what I ment
it'd have to have a fairly long CD so it couldn't be spammed or even depended on but saved for that oh crap moment on the edge of a wipe

you alreadly know I haven't healed but that doesn't mean you should ignore parts of my post.

the idea would be like say remove the NPC buffs at the end of the ultra fight and maybe have the CD be 5-6min (or more) so you're at the point where everyone in the raid might be losing 100% of their health every few seconds, so you pop the CD and also keep throwing heals

Or your on the ozoe boss and some dps derps and all three make it, (say the blue one was in that group and the black one) so in a few sec you won't have any mana till the void dies, so just before you pop the CD and hope it holds you through till the void dies.

the idea is a long CD that would only get used once per fight and maybe not even then because you'd reserve it to the oh sh** moment, and though in 20sec it COULD heal to full it wouldn't be used when incoming damage is low enough for it to actually get anyone to 100% on its own

also make it have a debuff and apply as a buff to all in the aoe so that the raid can't get two of it or even get it a 2nd time on the same boss, add in a high mana cost a cast time (so you'll only stop other heals to cast it when you really need it.)

Of course every raid would want that ability available and would rant if you ever used it at a non-critical time (like those that pop Time warp/Hero/blood at the start of every fight)