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heh
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Anon

Basement reno gone wrong

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Figured i'd post this here and let you guys have at it.

The only thing that I question is... How sound is the ground/soil in the adjacent homes? Seems like a big misery waiting to happen for everyone in that area. Not just that one poor sucker.

House tips toward neighbour during reno, now faces demolition
»www.thestar.com/news/gta ··· molition

A west-end house is expected to be demolished today after it slumped toward the home next door during renovations to the foundation.

Workers had been hand digging out the basement of the detached home on Maria St., near Runnymede Rd. and Dundas St. W., when it sunk and shifted precariously on Wednesday, threatening to collapse.

Mark Sraga, the city's director and deputy chief building official said the house has tipped within a foot of the neighbouring home.

“Right now it's looking like demolition is the only safe thing to do,” Sraga said. “Something shifted inside with respect to the soils which caused the house to shift and settle down.”

He said underpinning, which involves lowering the basement, is a common renovation but he would not speculate on whether it was an error made by the contractor that caused the house to shift.

FBR Waterproofing, a company that performs underpinnings, according to its website, had a sign advertising its services on the lawn outside the affected home, but a man who answered the phone Thursday refused to comment.

Sraga said the contractor had the required permits for the renovation.

“Sometimes unfortunately with soil conditions, and you're not sure exactly what's in the soil, things do happen,” Sraga said.

Neighbours on both sides of the leaning house were evacuated on the quiet street, where the damaged house sits across from a historic synagogue. ...
Story continues...

The story says the guys insurance is sending an engineer to asses if anyone can safely enter the house... But, in my opinion, shouldn't the city be sending engineers to asses the soil beneath these homes to see why it's shifting? The way I understand it, foundation soils have a grade. Certain grades can prevent you from even installing a pool (above ground and even below ground).

Seems to me there might be an issue with the area for this to happen, no?

Input!

Jim7
Premium Member
join:2003-02-10

Jim7

Premium Member

Wow.
Kinda sucks for the owner and the neighbors.
It'll suck even more when the lawsuits start to fly (you know it's coming).

Reminds me of a nursery rhyme.

There was a crooked man
Who walked a crooked mile.
He found a crooked sixpence
Against a crooked stile.
He bought a crooked cat
Which caught a crooked mouse,
And they all lived together
In a crooked little house.

bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
Premium Member
join:2000-02-02
San Jose, CA

bobrk to heh

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to heh
Why don't they just jack it up?

nunya
LXI 483
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O Fallon, MO
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I'm trying to figure out how they will safely demo it. It almost seems like you'd have to stabilize it first.
I've never understood why they build (built) row houses like that.
It's not like the US and Canada are lacking for space.

In St. Louis, the used to build them right up against each other. You could go an entire block and not be able to get between two houses. Some even built "tunnel" passageways to get from front to back. So strange.
nunya

nunya to bobrk

MVM

to bobrk
I think that's what they were trying to do when something went terribly wrong.
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl to nunya

Member

to nunya
said by nunya:

I'm trying to figure out how they will safely demo it. It almost seems like you'd have to stabilize it first.
I've never understood why they build (built) row houses like that.
It's not like the US and Canada are lacking for space.

In St. Louis, the used to build them right up against each other. You could go an entire block and not be able to get between two houses. Some even built "tunnel" passageways to get from front to back. So strange.

row houses are very common in montreal, basically a street of triple decker cold flats. those streets all have back alleys and sometimes they have porte cocheres.

SparkChaser
Premium Member
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA

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If it was in Amsterdam, it be a tourist attraction.
TheMG
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Canada
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TheMG to nunya

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to nunya
said by nunya:

I've never understood why they build (built) row houses like that. It's not like the US and Canada are lacking for space.

Answer: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Land within (or close to) city limits is typically expensive and sought after, so to maximize profits and city tax dollars, they cram as many homes as possible into a given amount of land.

robbin
Mod
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX

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robbin to nunya

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to nunya
said by nunya:

I think that's what they were trying to do when something went terribly wrong.

It sounds to me like they were excavating the basement to make it deeper so it would be livable space.

"Where a basement does not exist or is unusable in it's present form, one can be created by lowering the base level of the foundation by means of underpinning."

»www.basement4.com/create ··· ion.html

Really bad for the homeowner not knowing if they can retrieve their possessions. It's kind of like a fire where you loose everything but while it hasn't happened yet you still can't take anything with you.

"the homeowner will not be able to retrieve any of their belongings from inside the home, unless an engineer retained by the homeowner's insurance company advises it would be safe to do so.

Crews were awaiting direction from the insurance company before moving forward with demolition."

norbert26
Premium Member
join:2010-08-10
Warwick, RI

norbert26

Premium Member

in order to access if its safe to get inside most likely whoever the insurance co. brings in will venture inside to access this. Why can't at least a few small personal things be saved ? I could understand do not attempt to move furniture out but a few personal things could be saved possibly. Besides don't you have to get inside to demolish it anyways ? Before you tear it down save a few things.

AVD
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Onion, NJ

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Every engineer's nightmare.
AVD

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I tell you looking at the photo in the OP, it looks like something failed in the structure's frame, not that it settled funny.
Moffetts
join:2005-05-09
San Mateo, CA

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Given that it's now a foot from the neighbor's house, it must be leaning all of six or eight inches off center.

QWE111
@teksavvy.com

QWE111 to nunya

Anon

to nunya
said by nunya:

...
I've never understood why they build (built) row houses like that.
It's not like the US and Canada are lacking for space.

transportation. these houses were built before the car was a viable means of mass transport.

dogma
XYZ
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join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

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Assuming both the owner and contractor have valid insurance, it seems to be a win for the owner:
Brand new house! With finished basement and brand new furnishings.

Even if it's demolished, the owner should be able to retrieve personal mementos like pictures, and prolly even hard drives. I mean they can't implode the structure or even use a wrecking ball, so the demo must be done by hand.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

Premium Member

said by dogma:

Assuming both the owner and contractor have valid insurance, it seems to be a win for the owner:
Brand new house! With finished basement and brand new furnishings.

Even if it's demolished, the owner should be able to retrieve personal mementos like pictures, and prolly even hard drives. I mean they can't implode the structure or even use a wrecking ball, so the demo must be done by hand.

the best way would probably put a steel net around the whole thing, and pull it forward. if it's pulled at four points, you should have some control over the direction. the homeowner should build a new house elsewhere, and sell 1/2 the property to each of the adjoining properties, then each would have a proper side yard at least.

Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans
join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON

Mashiki

Member

Well being that it's in Toronto, they're probably sitting on $400k worth of land now.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

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said by Mashiki:

Well being that it's in Toronto, they're probably sitting on $400k worth of land now.

what? the house looks to be about 16 feet wide, look at how much of the front the bow window takes up, about half the front of the house!.

AVD
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join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ

AVD

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Canadian Dollars
telco_mtl
join:2012-01-06

telco_mtl to iknow

Member

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said by iknow:

said by Mashiki:

Well being that it's in Toronto, they're probably sitting on $400k worth of land now.

what? the house looks to be about 16 feet wide, look at how much of the front the bow window takes up, about half the front of the house!.

toronto real estate prices are ridicoulous, the house i have in montreal that cost me 120 000$ in 2007 in toronto(same distance from the city as i am) is about 450 000$

FiReSTaRT
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join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT to AVD

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said by AVD:

Canadian Dollars

Which translates into 387,243.66 USD.. Could buy half of Detroit with that

djrobx
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join:2000-05-31
Reno, NV

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The story says the guys insurance is sending an engineer to asses ...

I'd be willing to bet that engineer will find some cracks.

ArthurS
Watch Those Blinking Lights
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Hamilton, ON

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One thing for sure, the new house will definitely have a nice basement!!!

GadgetsRme
RIP lilhurricane and CJ
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Canon City, CO

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said by djrobx:

The story says the guys insurance is sending an engineer to asses ...

I'd be willing to bet that engineer will find some cracks.

Nah! He'll be looking for loopholes so they don't have to pay.

macsierra8
Baby Newfoundland
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join:2003-11-30
Minden, NV

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In this case everything is the contractors fault as it normally is in these situations. This house will have to be taken apart from the top down using mechanical equipment and safety devices.

The owner will be very happy in his newly built house..
MaynardKrebs
We did it. We heaved Steve. Yipee.
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MaynardKrebs to AVD

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said by AVD:

I tell you looking at the photo in the OP, it looks like something failed in the structure's frame, not that it settled funny.

I'll reply to several different points in this one reply:

a) The houses in this neighbourhood are 100+ years old.

b) The area was a lower-class working man's area of the city when built - hence the proximity of one home to the next. You'll find this in any urban area where the neighbourhood was built to accomodate new immigrants.

c) The houses in this neighbourhood are typically all-brick construction - meaning that the exterior walls above the basement walls are made solely of brick - typically what's known as 'double-brick'. Double-brick is where in essence two separate brick walls are built immediately adjacent to one another and tied together via cross-bricking between the two walls. There is no 'frame' as is common in today's construction.

d) Often the basement foundation walls in neighbourhoods such as these were not made of poured concrete or concrete block - these techniques were not widely used in homes of this price-point back in the day. What was typically used was fieldstone, mortared together - like old farmhouses or barns typically are. I would be willing to bet that's how the foundation of this house was built. They are commonly called 'rubble' foundations.

e) Underpinning a foundation built from fieldstone is inherently dangerous, as walls like this can collapse under their own weight and deteriorated mortar (easy to happen if the mortar wasn't properly made 100 years ago). Rubble foundations don't hold together as well as poured concrete or concrete block walls do when you dig out a 4' long' section (max. recommended section width).

f) Given the proximity of the neighbouring homes, lateral or even straight downward pressure of the home next door could have caused soil to dislocate once foundation was under-dug, but before the underpinning concrete was poured.

g) The soil in that area is predominantly sand. The area used to be Lake Iroquos (what Lake Ontario was called just after the last ice age) shoreline 10,000 years ago.

h) It's not uncommon to have underground streams along the Old Lake Iroquois shoreline to this day. The new watermain installed up Avenue Road (also in Toronto) the past couple years ran into exactly this problem at St. Clair. Dewatering of the soil had to be done for nearly 6 months before tunnelling could continue.

i) A better way to have 'lowered the basement' would have been to jack the house up off the foundation walls, demolish the old walls, and then dug the basement deeper and then installed a new poured concrete foundation. But like most 'better' ways, better costs more. Underpinning costs about $170-200 per linear foot of work for a 2'-3' underpin. Jacking the house up would have cost about $20k, then add in the demolition cost of the old foundation and the cost of the new basement walls and the total cost could have been 2-3x higher.

j) I'll bet there wasn't a series of soil core sample taken before the permit was applied for, or at any time during construction.

k) When demolished, the house will only be taken down as far as the grass - in order to not destabilize the homes on either side. Then piles will have to be sunk at least 20-25' deep adjacent to each of the neighbouring homes to create a shoring wall so those homes won't collapse into the basement of the now demolished house. They also might have to drill and grout the soil under the adjacent homes to stabilize them. Only then will the basement rubble be able to be removed.

Some insurance companies will be out a lot of money on this fiasco.

bobrk
You kids get offa my lawn
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San Jose, CA
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bobrk to FiReSTaRT

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to FiReSTaRT
said by FiReSTaRT:

said by AVD:

Canadian Dollars

Which translates into 387,243.66 USD.. Could buy half of Detroit with that

And maybe a studio condo here in San Jose.

dandelion
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Germantown, TN

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said by MaynardKrebs See Profile

j) I'll bet there wasn't a series of soil core sample taken before the permit was applied for, or at any time during construction.

Sounds like a good out for the insurance companies.. would be interesting to follow what happens with this and next door houses.

wait n see
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Anon

to MaynardKrebs
said by MaynardKrebs:

j) I'll bet there wasn't a series of soil core sample taken before the permit was applied for, or at any time during construction.

Some insurance companies will be out a lot of money on this fiasco.

And core samples and grading of the soil is normally done by city engineers.

If the ground is unstable not only for the reno's house, but for the others as well, the city will be in the following situation:
-Fix it on their dime
-Be sued, then fix it

I have no idea if these people are on a hill or slope. If so the situation is worse and again the cities responsibility.

The insurance company is in the game of making money. Chances are *they* will sue the city.

garys_2k
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Farmington, MI

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said by FiReSTaRT:

said by AVD:

Canadian Dollars

Which translates into 387,243.66 USD.. Could buy half of Detroit with that

The good half!