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Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA to moes

Premium Member

to moes

Re: What country are sharp window air conditioners made?

said by moes:

Long as it's not junk, I really do not give a hoot where it's made.

If I am to expect my fellow citizens to buy or utilize the services I provide to make a living and provide for myself and my family I believe I have an obligation to try to buy products made by my fellow citizens trying to make a living for themselves and their families.

As Americans we have lost the fact that we're all a family and it is evident in the loss of our manufacturing jobs.

nonamesleft
join:2011-11-07
Manitowoc, WI

nonamesleft

Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by moes:

Long as it's not junk, I really do not give a hoot where it's made.

If I am to expect my fellow citizens to buy or utilize the services I provide to make a living and provide for myself and my family I believe I have an obligation to try to buy products made by my fellow citizens trying to make a living for themselves and their families.

As Americans we have lost the fact that we're all a family and it is evident in the loss of our manufacturing jobs.

I try to buy made in usa too, just as long as I can afford it, but my most recent purchase was a generator, I didn't have enough for one made here.

FiReSTaRT
Premium Member
join:2010-02-26
Canada

FiReSTaRT to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

said by moes:

Long as it's not junk, I really do not give a hoot where it's made.

If I am to expect my fellow citizens to buy or utilize the services I provide to make a living and provide for myself and my family I believe I have an obligation to try to buy products made by my fellow citizens trying to make a living for themselves and their families.

As Americans we have lost the fact that we're all a family and it is evident in the loss of our manufacturing jobs.

Oh no it's not.. We're all gonna live happily ever after being designers and managers while our Chinese and Indian slaves will make what we design under our management. We'll all be rich, won't do real work and live happily ever after

I can't believe my generation swallowed that coming from the boomers and that enough people still believe in it

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall

MVM

said by FiReSTaRT:

Oh no it's not.. We're all gonna live happily ever after being designers and managers while our Chinese and Indian slaves will make what we design under our management.

Actually, there are many designers in India now... I know this from personal experience :-( At my previous job, our entire department is gone, except for (1) person. His job is to send the requests to the "design center" in India, receive them back, etc, etc.

dogma
XYZ
Premium Member
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

1 recommendation

dogma to Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

If I am to expect my fellow citizens to buy or utilize the services I provide to make a living and provide for myself and my family I believe I have an obligation to try to buy products made by my fellow citizens trying to make a living for themselves and their families.

So I take it you have one of these Washing Machines in your home:




This is a Staber model HXW2504 made entirely in Ohio, and all sub components are American made. The only one made in the U.S. (that I could ever find)

It cost $1899.00

No doubt you own the matching dryer that retails for $874 as well? Pics of the units in your laundry room would be inspirational!

Purchasing something solely because it's Made in the U.S is a ridiculous premise.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by dogma:

Purchasing something solely because it's Made in the U.S is a ridiculous premise.

Well maybe your fellow citizens will feel the same about your product or service. Think about that. They keep your paycheck coming in. If I want them to buy my product or service then I should be buying theirs not someone's from a foreign country. We are Americans and should be patronizing each other.

dogma
XYZ
Premium Member
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

2 recommendations

dogma

Premium Member

said by Jack_in_VA:

We are Americans and should be patronizing each other.

Believe me, I wish that were true. It's just not the world we live in today.

It was true years ago, but the idea that manufacturing creates jobs is false for the most part now. Be it here or anywhere else in the world. When we think manufacturing assembly line, we dredge up this mental image of men working shoulder-to-shoulder:

»/r0/do ··· ine1.JPG

But today's reality looks like this:

»/r0/do ··· ine2.JPG

We have a Taiwanese customer that manufactures medical equipment. The have a plant in China. That plant employed 60,000 workers. They relocated that plant to Vietnam. The new fully automated plant outputs 4x the product, but only has 8,000 workers.

Even slaves have to sleep, eat, take restroom breaks, whereas robots work 24/7/365 and never complain about working conditions. Robots make products perfectly every time. (This is why I will buy a 2 year old car with 200,000 miles on it because a robot built it)

I can't think of too many jobs that can't be automated. So China's reign as the king of manufacturing will be over sooner than anyone thinks.

So it doesn't really matter anymore where stuff is made, as it doesn't affect the job creation like we want to think it does.

Fronkman
An Apple a day keeps the doctor away
Premium Member
join:2003-06-23
Saint Louis, MO

Fronkman

Premium Member

said by dogma:

We have a Taiwanese customer that manufactures medical equipment. The have a plant in China. That plant employed 60,000 workers. They relocated that plant to Vietnam. The new fully automated plant outputs 4x the product, but only has 8,000 workers.

So it doesn't really matter anymore where stuff is made, as it doesn't affect the job creation like we want to think it does.

You are right, this is a really big deal. The good news is that cost savings will bring the manufacturing back to the US (if labor cost is minimal it is more cost effective to avoid shipping the finished goods back). The bad news is that we will never employ as many people in the manufacturing sector as we used to.

The Chinese still have a huge labor force because they still do many tasks by hand. For instance, an iPhone is largely hand-assembled. However, there will be a turning point where the Chinese wages increase too much or the automation gets too cheap and the corporate HQ folks will figure out that machines located in the actual country of sale will be cheaper.

One other factor to point out, I agree with the anecdotal findings of many of you that more and more products sold at Home Depot, Walmart, etc are made in the US. Personally, I think this is as much a reflection of the recession and the lower cost of manufacturing in the US as it is some sort of patriotic move.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross

Member

said by Fronkman:

You are right, this is a really big deal. The good news is that cost savings will bring the manufacturing back to the US (if labor cost is minimal it is more cost effective to avoid shipping the finished goods back). The bad news is that we will never employ as many people in the manufacturing sector as we used to.

Foxconn (the Apple manufacturer) has already announced plans to replace most of their labor force with robots - millions of them, IIRC. Said robots will have to designed, built, installed, and maintained by skilled labor - not by the farm kids fresh out of the rice paddies that Foxconn has traditionally hired by the droves. They'll probably end up having to move their manufacturing facilities, too, to someplace with a higher-quality of infrastructure (more reliable power and so on); they've already stated that they will be moving a lot of it out of China. First-world countries are not only best for this, but they are also generally richer and more in line with being primary markets, so fewer transportation costs and such.

Places like Thailand, which bent over backwards to make companies such as hard-drive manufacturers welcome there, still failed to do basic infrastructure work like planning for flood control and such. Which is why the hard-drive industry nearly fell apart when the big floods hit Thailand last year (as they do almost every year, in fact; it's called "the monsoon season").

Hall
MVM
join:2000-04-28
Germantown, OH

Hall

MVM

How long before robots build other robots ? Then they take over everything ?
Hall

Hall to dogma

MVM

to dogma
said by dogma:

So I take it you have one of these Washing Machines in your home:

This is a Staber model HXW2504 made entirely in Ohio, and all sub components are American made. The only one made in the U.S. (that I could ever find)

It cost $1899.00

No doubt you own the matching dryer that retails for $874 as well? Pics of the units in your laundry room would be inspirational!

Purchasing something solely because it's Made in the U.S is a ridiculous premise.

Whirlpool claims to have (9) manufacturing sites in the US, »www.howtobuyamerican.com ··· 30.shtml. Not to be a skeptic, but as I mentioned above, do they really just "assemble" them here ? Are all, or at least a majority, of the parts US-made as well ?
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

Premium Member

said by Hall:

said by dogma:

So I take it you have one of these Washing Machines in your home:

This is a Staber model HXW2504 made entirely in Ohio, and all sub components are American made. The only one made in the U.S. (that I could ever find)

It cost $1899.00

No doubt you own the matching dryer that retails for $874 as well? Pics of the units in your laundry room would be inspirational!

Purchasing something solely because it's Made in the U.S is a ridiculous premise.

Whirlpool claims to have (9) manufacturing sites in the US, »www.howtobuyamerican.com ··· 30.shtml. Not to be a skeptic, but as I mentioned above, do they really just "assemble" them here ? Are all, or at least a majority, of the parts US-made as well ?

it's probably just assembled in USA using imported components, how else could they compete price wise? and that website seems to only care about americans being employed, not really about completely made in USA.

dogma
XYZ
Premium Member
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

dogma to Hall

Premium Member

to Hall
said by Hall:

Whirlpool claims to have (9) manufacturing sites in the US, »www.howtobuyamerican.com ··· 30.shtml. Not to be a skeptic, but as I mentioned above, do they really just "assemble" them here ? Are all, or at least a majority, of the parts US-made as well ?

Good point.
said by NYTimes --> »www.nytimes.com/2005/06/ ··· nted=all :
Whirlpool's global network, a work in progress, includes microwave ovens engineered in Sweden and made in China for American consumers; stoves designed in America and made in Tulsa, Okla., for American consumers; refrigerators assembled in Brazil and exported to Europe; and top-loading washers made at a sprawling factory in Clyde, Ohio, for American consumers, although some are sold in Mexico.
But Alibaba shows 667 unique parts for Whirlpool Washing machines made/manufactured in China. So these are really assembly plants.

However;
said by WSJ --> »online.wsj.com/article/S ··· 376.html :
As a plant manager in Greenville for Whirlpool Corp., he brought back production of that company's KitchenAid hand mixers, which for the previous six years had been made by a contractor in Huizhou, China, near Guangzhou.

The net gain in U.S. jobs at Whirlpool? About 25.
Good article which illustrates what we are discussing here.
WareWolF2k
join:2000-11-14
Allentown, PA

WareWolF2k to dogma

Member

to dogma
I went to the web site for that $1800 washer and they also have washers that start at $1299 in white, comparable to the price of a decent washer from the major brands. You can't compare a top of the line stainless steel commercial washer to a $500 bestbuy special. If I was in the market for a washer I would consider this brand.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

You could buy 2 $500 Best Buy Specials and have $299 left over. It's a matter of economics.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to Hall

Member

to Hall
said by Hall:

How long before robots build other robots ? Then they take over everything ?

"And I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords!"

dogma
XYZ
Premium Member
join:2002-08-15
Boulder City, NV

dogma to WareWolF2k

Premium Member

to WareWolF2k
said by WareWolF2k:

If I was in the market for a washer I would consider this brand.

said by Jack_in_VA:

You could buy 2 $500 Best Buy Specials and have $299 left over. It's a matter of economics.

...so I am carefully considering the business model that would make both WareWolF2k See Profile & Jack_in_VA See Profile happy. But it's a win/win-lose/lose proposition no matter how I attempt to slice and dice it.

Assuming Stabler has a better engineered mousetrap, how do they go from a very small, one-off shop to a large competitor in the marketplace?

To have mass appeal, they need to compete at a price point that the big box stores will carry, and the global consumer will find value in (Jack_in_VA See Profile's statement is the way consumers think). In order to do that, they must mass produce on a large scale - which would bring the price per unit down by 60% or more, since big box wants to buy wholesale for $300 and sell retail for $600.

To mass produce they have two choices. Borrow a massive amount of $$$ or get an investor(s) to pony up a massive amount of capital to build a high volume manufacturing plant in Ohio.

The odds of this happening are almost impossible. As risk capital for a company like this is virtually nonexistent. There is no bank that will loan them a few hundred million as they don't have the security (collateral), or cash flow to justify it. An investor may come in, but the new manufacturing facility would have to be almost totally automated...resulting in no net new jobs created other than the construction of the plant, and the purchase of the robots.

More than likely, any investor worth their salt, would demand all manufacturing be done by the lowest bidding 3rd party to minimize their financial risk. And that would be in China.

This is exactly what happened to Dyson vacuum (Interestingly enough, Dyson, although known for vacuums, also makes washing machines ). Originally manufactured in Malmesbury, Wiltshire (England) up until 2002. In 2002, they moved their vacuum cleaner production to Malaysia...as well as their washing machine production.

So Stabler as a company could win...like Dyson, but American workers would absolutely lose.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

Stabler Washer Consumer Complaints & Reviews

A product priced as high over most other brands should not be having the problems listed. Leads me to believe it's more hype than actual value. Stainless steel in itself does not indicate a superior product.

UHF
All static, all day, Forever
MVM
join:2002-05-24

UHF to dogma

MVM

to dogma
said by dogma:

An investor may come in, but the new manufacturing facility would have to be almost totally automated...resulting in no net new jobs created other than the construction of the plant, and the purchase of the robots.

But in politician speak, that's jobs created! Somehow, in their minds, construction = new jobs. Even though they are temporary.
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to Hall

Member

to Hall
said by Hall:

Whirlpool claims to have (9) manufacturing sites in the US, »www.howtobuyamerican.com ··· 30.shtml. Not to be a skeptic, but as I mentioned above, do they really just "assemble" them here ? Are all, or at least a majority, of the parts US-made as well ?

What we found when we were fridge shopping in April of this year was most in the average (under $1500 range) were made in Mexico. It was hard to find a brand not made in Mexico in this price range. Whirlpool, Maytag, GE, etc, all "Hecho in Mexico". It wasn't until you got to the almost $2000 range that they were made in the USA.

We ended up with a nice Samsung also "Hecho in Mexico".

tmh
@comcastbusiness.net

tmh to dogma

Anon

to dogma
said by dogma:

It was true years ago, but the idea that manufacturing creates jobs is false for the most part now. Be it here or anywhere else in the world.

Correct.

The same held true with agriculture in the early 1900s. Many people have forgotten the transition we experience today is as jolting as when America switched from an agricultural base to a manufacturing one.

As with manufacturing, agriculture became increasingly mechanized to the point that today, we produce considerably more food than we've ever done in the past, but with a fraction of the labor.

Manufacturing will continue in the US, just not widgets that can be made by unskilled/semi-skilled labor. There's a tremendous demand for skilled machinist, and in precision engineering for example. Nobody else in the world can beat us in this.

The question is not whether we should be buying American-made paper products, thumb tacks and spittoons. The question should be: why are we still making this junk?

The long term key to getting to the next step is education. When I see what passes for marketable skills these days, I worry.

Jack_in_VA
Premium Member
join:2007-11-26
North, VA

Jack_in_VA

Premium Member

said by tmh :

Manufacturing will continue in the US, just not widgets that can be made by unskilled/semi-skilled labor. There's a tremendous demand for skilled machinist, and in precision engineering for example. Nobody else in the world can beat us in this.

The long term key to getting to the next step is education. When I see what passes for marketable skills these days, I worry.

I hope you really don't believe that to be fact. I would say some in other countries might just dispute you on that.

tmh
@verizon.net

tmh

Anon

said by Jack_in_VA:

said by tmh :

Manufacturing will continue in the US, just not widgets that can be made by unskilled/semi-skilled labor. There's a tremendous demand for skilled machinist, and in precision engineering for example. Nobody else in the world can beat us in this.

The long term key to getting to the next step is education. When I see what passes for marketable skills these days, I worry.

I hope you really don't believe that to be fact. I would say some in other countries might just dispute you on that.

No doubt. There's always room for interpretation, and I'm sure there will be others willing to share their thoughts. That's as it should be. competition is what's keeping us ahead. to harken back to the past is good for reminiscing, but not good for staying ahead.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to WareWolF2k

Member

to WareWolF2k
said by WareWolF2k:

I went to the web site for that $1800 washer and they also have washers that start at $1299 in white, comparable to the price of a decent washer from the major brands. You can't compare a top of the line stainless steel commercial washer to a $500 bestbuy special. If I was in the market for a washer I would consider this brand.

I would search craigslist for laundromat grade machine. Will last forever, and super fast, assuming you have a 1 inch water main and you have give it a toilet waste pipe.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to tmh

Member

to tmh
said by tmh :

said by dogma:

It was true years ago, but the idea that manufacturing creates jobs is false for the most part now. Be it here or anywhere else in the world.

Correct.

The same held true with agriculture in the early 1900s. Many people have forgotten the transition we experience today is as jolting as when America switched from an agricultural base to a manufacturing one.
...
The long term key to getting to the next step is education. When I see what passes for marketable skills these days, I worry.

Ah, but you see, there's the rub! Historically, for an agricultural job all you really needed was a strong back and a willingness to work. Education didn't matter much, so anybody who could and would do the job could usually find work. This scenario still plays out in the migrant farm worker world, where you don't even have to speak the local language in order to do the job.

But for non-agricultural work, you generally have to have some education and/or training, and today you have people who've spent considerable time and money going to college and maybe beyond, perhaps going in massive debt in the process, only to find that there are minimal jobs out there for them. This is HUGE difference from the past, and people are only slowly coming to realize that such extended education is probably no longer particularly smart nor cost-effective. So it's really more a matter of choosing the RIGHT education (four or more years of college is no longer automatically the correct choice), in a field where you expect there will be ongoing or at least near-time demand, and also knowing that you may end up having to repeat this process multiple times during your working career.
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned)

Member

Education is still key. The unemployment rate for those with college degrees is 4.1%. It's more than double for those without.

But yes, if a person decides to major in something stupid, then that's their call. But overall, college is still a winner.
iknow
Premium Member
join:2012-03-25

iknow

Premium Member

said by 67845017:

Education is still key. The unemployment rate for those with college degrees is 4.1%. It's more than double for those without.

But yes, if a person decides to major in something stupid, then that's their call. But overall, college is still a winner.

not really, Prostitution can be a pain in the butt, for medical students. »www.myhealthnewsdaily.co ··· ion.html in any country!.
scross
join:2002-09-13
USA

scross to 67845017

Member

to 67845017
said by 67845017:

Education is still key. The unemployment rate for those with college degrees is 4.1%. It's more than double for those without.

But yes, if a person decides to major in something stupid, then that's their call. But overall, college is still a winner.

Actual unemployment and underemployment rates are generally considered to be much higher than what is being reported, for various reasons. And while it may be true that these rates are much lower for college-educated people, I know a TON of young people these days who graduated college and are "employed", but are working as waiters and hostesses and sales clerks and such jobs that don't require a college education. Now, there's nothing wrong with these jobs, per se; some of them can be quite profitable (with tips and such) and/or lead to working your way up the corporate ladder (opportunity is where you find it, but you have to good looking for it, too). While being college-educated may have given them a leg up for even those jobs, who knows whether these young folks will ever find the kind of meaningful employment that they expected to find, or if they will ever get out from under the debt they may be under?
67845017 (banned)
join:2000-12-17
Naperville, IL

67845017 (banned) to iknow

Member

to iknow
There was something on TV recently about this. It reminded me of a time I'd been to a country western bar in Minneapolis and the cute little waitress girl in cowboy hat, boots and fringe skirt told me that she did this in her spare time as she was attending law school.

I have to tell you, that I never saw girls in my law school classes that looked like her or sounded as ditzy. But when I read and see articles like this, it makes me wonder.
67845017

67845017 (banned) to scross

Member

to scross
said by scross:

said by 67845017:

Education is still key. The unemployment rate for those with college degrees is 4.1%. It's more than double for those without.

But yes, if a person decides to major in something stupid, then that's their call. But overall, college is still a winner.

Actual unemployment and underemployment rates are generally considered to be much higher than what is being reported, for various reasons. And while it may be true that these rates are much lower for college-educated people, I know a TON of young people these days who graduated college and are "employed", but are working as waiters and hostesses and sales clerks and such jobs that don't require a college education. Now, there's nothing wrong with these jobs, per se; some of them can be quite profitable (with tips and such) and/or lead to working your way up the corporate ladder (opportunity is where you find it, but you have to good looking for it, too). While being college-educated may have given them a leg up for even those jobs, who knows whether these young folks will ever find the kind of meaningful employment that they expected to find, or if they will ever get out from under the debt they may be under?

The unemployment and underemployment rate is significantly higher for non college educated.

When the economy recovers, those college kids will mostly end up doing better than their non-college educated counterparts.

When I came out of law school in 1994, it was a brutal time for law school graduates. I knew many that had well over $100K in loans but could only get $25-40K jobs. I was lucky in that I was able to get a job at a prestige firm at the very top salary range. But those positions were/are few and far between. Regardless, when I talked to a lot of these attorneys ten years later, they were mostly all doing fine. A few left the industry but found good and high paying employment in other capacities.