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sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

1 edit

sk1939

Premium Member

Wiring Behind 70's Panelboard

Click for full size
If you need actual pictures let me know.
So here's the sticky situation I find myself in; in the basement I have that damn faux-wood paneling, and romex behind it. Sometime in the middle of installation and my rectifying, a previous owner decided to add an outlet on the wall, in the middle of the wall, sideways, on the otherside of the room. Now the issue with the outlet is that is wired with 14 Ga romex, while the rest of the outlets are fed off of 12Ga romex (20A circuit).

What is the best way to go about fixing this without fishing or demoing the wall? I plan on just abandoning the wiring in place and using 3/8" flexible conduit with 12Ga THHN (or 12/3 Gauge BX/AC-90) from a protruding box (due to fill) up the wall (possibly using a raceway), through the drop ceiling, and down to a new outlet box NOT in the middle of the wall. Ugly, but it's a storage room/server room anyways.

jjoshua
Premium Member
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ

jjoshua

Premium Member

What's the problem with 14 gauge romex?

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

1 edit

sk1939

Premium Member

said by jjoshua:

What's the problem with 14 gauge romex?

Other than the fact that you can't/shouldn't use it on a 20A circuit?

To clarify the diagram, 15A = 14 Ga and 20A = 12 Ga

tschmidt
MVM
join:2000-11-12
Milford, NH

tschmidt to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
Have you though about replacing the 20A breaker with a 15A one?

/tom

tp0d
yabbazooie
Premium Member
join:2001-02-13
Bulger, PA

tp0d

Premium Member

Looks like the end of that #14 is feeding a bathroom as well. I`d abandon the tap at the top right plug, and run a new #12 circuit to the bottom left plug.

-j

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939 to tschmidt

Premium Member

to tschmidt
I have, but I also have a 1500VA UPS on that circuit, which provides power to my outdoor power tools as well, so I'd prefer not to limit it to 15A if possible. The amount of 14 Ga wire is also negligible compared to the entire length of the run (20ft of 14Ga. vs ~75ft of 12 Ga).
sk1939

sk1939 to tp0d

Premium Member

to tp0d
That's the plan. It actually dosen't feed a bathroom, I put a GFCI where the switch for a (poorly wired) outdoor floodlight used to be, which happens to be right next to a door in the basement leading to the backyard.

Savant
Premium Member
join:2001-08-12
Toronto

Savant to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
said by sk1939:

What is the best way to go about fixing this without fishing or demoing the wall? I plan on just abandoning the wiring in place

If you don't plan on using that outlet again, and you are OK with a blank plate being put in it's place you could (after killing the power of course) open up the #14 gauge receptacle you want to 'abandon', take out the receptacle, marette the white/black together and then put on a blank plate. Next go to the receptacle that feeds it and remove the feeder wires from the 20A receptacle and marette together the white/black of the abandoned feed. Tuck the maretted wires in the back of the box and remount the receptacle. Done.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

I do plan on using those outlets again, especially the downstream one since that's the only one I can use to trim my hedges/vacuum my car.

Nick_L
Premium Member
join:2003-01-22
Pittsburgh, PA

Nick_L to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
Do you have the 4x8 sheets of paneling or individual boards (I'm assuming 4x8 sheets as they didn't/don't make much fake paneling in individual board widths very often)? If it is sheeting, what is behind it, wall board or just batten strips? The reason I ask is that those boards are usually really easy to pop off, with no damage (unless your DIYer went crazy with the construction adhesive). you could then just replace your 14 gage with 12 gage (or whatever else you decide to do) and then just put the paneling back.

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo to sk1939

Member

to sk1939
Are you sure the 12AWG wiring isn't aluminum?

Your choice of red for the 12AWG in the wiring diagram reminds me of the old aluminum wiring I found in the basement circuit.

Savant
Premium Member
join:2001-08-12
Toronto

Savant to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
Sorry, I just took a closer look at your diagram...

OK, if you want to keep it all intact but make it 'safe' the other alternative is to pull a #14 from the 20A receptacle back to the panel, and install a new 15A breaker to serve the remainder of the #14 leg with the new breaker. This would put the 20A t-slot receptacle on it's own circuit.

The only problem would be that it's unlikely you have a 3" deep box, and you would have to have one in order to run 3 lines (with 2 wires each) into a single device box. (because of box fill requirements) I don't have the charts in front of me, but I know for a fact you won't be able to put 3 lines in a 'standard' 2½" deep box. If you have the room though you could put a two gang box in and then put two receptacles, one for each circuit, then you wouldn't have to worry about box fill for the 3 lines.

This would of course depend on whether you are able to 'easily' fish a line back to the panel from the first receptacle, and whether there is room in the panel.

whizkid3
MVM
join:2002-02-21
Queens, NY

whizkid3 to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
Not sure if it's just your drawing or not, but you also show that all of the receptacles are 20A receptacles. If so, you would need 12 AWG and 20A breakers throughout.

From your description of what is on this circuit; it sounds like you need to add additional circuits regardless and split some of this mess apart. Why are you running outdoor power tools on a UPS, anyway?

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939 to Nick_L

Premium Member

to Nick_L
There's absolutely nothing behind it, no vapor barrier, no insulation, nothing but wood framing.
sk1939

sk1939 to alkizmo

Premium Member

to alkizmo
It's not aluminium, it's old Coleman 12Ga copper with the abhorrent undersized ground wire.
sk1939

sk1939 to whizkid3

Premium Member

to whizkid3
They are all 20A outlets indeed, which is why I want to replace that run of 14 Ga which they put in for no reason. The majority of the run is 12 Ga. and runs off of a 20A breaker.

I would, but it's impractical since the majority of the basement is finished, and it would also be a 100+ foot run. It's not running off of the UPS, just on the same circuit. There's a 15A circuit that runs nearby, but that is already relatively loaded since it powers two bedrooms, a 1/2 bathroom, and an office.

Savant
Premium Member
join:2001-08-12
Toronto

Savant to sk1939

Premium Member

to sk1939
About the other other way you could possibly get around it would be to put a small disconnect in near the 20A receptacle, and then split off the 15A line and run it into the disconnect. Then take a #12 from the 20A receptacle and run it to the disconnect.

This would at least get you proper overcurrent protection, and the mess would be minimal since you would only need to work on the 20A receptacle.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

Interesting idea, but is it code compliant to do it that way?

Something like this?

49528867 (banned)
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL

49528867 (banned) to Savant

Member

to Savant
said by Savant:

About the other other way you could possibly get around it would be to put a small disconnect in near the 20A receptacle, and then split off the 15A line and run it into the disconnect. Then take a #12 from the 20A receptacle and run it to the disconnect. This would at least get you proper overcurrent protection, and the mess would be minimal since you would only need to work on the 20A receptacle.

Wow I have been doing electrical for more than I care to remember and that is something I being so narrow minded would have never considered.

It’s good to know the next time I come across a branch of a branch circuit that was scabbed off an existing branch circuit outlet with an improperly sized conductor, I can instead of solving the problem by replacing the wiring install a 20 amp sub, sub maybe sub sub sub panel?

Absolutely sheer genius.

Wayne

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

I figured as much, which is why I plan on using flexible conduit or AC-90, since running solid is a PITA. Anything wrong with my original plan?

alkizmo
join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC

alkizmo

Member

said by sk1939:

I figured as much, which is why I plan on using flexible conduit or AC-90, since running solid is a PITA. Anything wrong with my original plan?

Heck go even cheaper and buy a fusible disconnect box.
They cost like 10$-15$ + a 15A fuse. You thing probably would run around 50$ with the breaker.

Of course, only if the forum electricians approve of your idea.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

It's generally a bad idea to do it that way. I think I'm just going to rewire it and keep it simple. The only issue is how to hide the relatively ugly cable. Will probably use a Wiremold tube along the wall, and use a cap at the top to feed the flex. I also may just use 1/2" flex because I have 250 feet laying around collecting dust (what? it was $40).

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

nunya to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
I have to be honest, I read this post several times, but did not add my $.02 because I just didn't get the gist of what's going on from the description.

From what I gather, this is a basement with a drywalled ceiling?

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD
ARRIS SB8200
Ubiquiti UDM-Pro
Juniper SRX320

sk1939

Premium Member

I'll try to phrase it in a simpler way. It's in a basement with a drop ceiling and hollow wood paneling for walls. The paneling is hollow with no insulation or vapor barrier, and faces block on 2 sides, dry wall on one, and paneling on the last.

The portion of the circuit in question is on the wall with paneling on one side and drywall on the other. There is an outlet on either side wired with 14 Ga romex on a 20A circuit. I want to replace this run with AC-90 or 1/2" Flex wired with 12Ga THHN stranded. I plan to abandon the 14Ga in place, and want to do this without demoing the walls if possible, by running it through the drop ceiling. The issue is wall accessibility, since the builders/homeowners finished the wall by placing 3 2x4s on top of each other to close the gap from the frame to the ceiling.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
Drop ceiling makes it EZPZ. Personally, I'd find a way to fish it. There's almost always a way if you look hard enough. Most basement 2x4 walls do not go all the way to the foundation.

Or remove the paneling. Taking down paneling is a snap. Pry the baseboard loose over the section you want to remove and cut off the trim nails with dykes.
Paneling nails don't put up much of a fight . Once you get a toe hold, it's like butter. Just don't bend it too much. Grab some new paneling nails at Lowe's Depot and put it back up after re-wiring. It literally takes 10 minutes to get a section of paneling out.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

Sounds easy enough.

Anything wrong electrically/code-wise about my plans? Someone told me that you can't use flex for more than 6 feet, but that person is based in Chicago where everything has to be pipe....

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
·Charter

nunya

MVM

They are probably confused. On 20A and below circuits, you can FMC as the equipment grounding conductor. Over 6', and you have to include an actual EGC.
In some cities, they don't allow flex over 6' period, and only allow it for fixture whips.
This goes back to the earlier thread with cities / municipalities adding their own little quirks.

I wouldn't use flex, as it's a pain in the ass. If you are allowed to use MC or AC, I would use that instead.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

Would AC-90 work? I mention flex because I have 250' of 1/2" I bought at a firesale price.

nunya
LXI 483
MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO

nunya to sk1939

MVM

to sk1939
Should be just fine.
There's nothing wrong with flex, but then you have to buy the wire to go in it. It never wants to pull right over long lengths.
That's why you'll find we avoid using flex except as needed in short lengths.

sk1939
Premium Member
join:2010-10-23
Frederick, MD

sk1939

Premium Member

Easy enough, I'll have pictures once I'm finished.