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No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6

The price of open ODB

Losing your car.

»www.technolog.msnbc.msn.com/tech···e-868400

Once some sort of access to the vehicle is gained, the thieves connect a device to the car's OBD-II connector which gives them access to the car's unique key fob digital ID, allowing them to program a blank key fob to work with the car right then and there.

All cars sold in Europe must permit open and unsecured access to OBD codes, so non-franchised mechanics and garages may read the codes.


Why is it we need fobs again? Oh, yeah, to make us safer.

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
seems to me allowing the OBD-II port to program keyfobs is a terrible idea.

I am just wondering what is this "Ultrasonic Sensor" they talk about in security though. is that like a glass break sensor? as Exterior motion sensors on cars make no sense.

(external sensors are fun as hell to mess with... years ago... 1997, I pushed carts at a supermarket and this super fancy car that would warn you to back away... yea we deliberately walked passed it setting its alarm off causing it to beep the owner LOL... never touched it. just stood by it until the proximity sensor made the alarm go off)
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
The description tells me it's the interior motion sensor that activates when the car is locked. Had one on my last car. I still remember the look on the dog's face when I came running back to shut off the alarm. "I didn't do it. I stayed, just like you told me."


mjhouser
Premium
join:2001-10-06
reply to No_Strings
Gone in 180 seconds!


CylonRed
Premium,MVM
join:2000-07-06
Bloom County
reply to No_Strings
One reason I like to be a luddite with my cars - which is increasingly hard to unless you want the lowest of the lowest end of cars.
--
Brian

"It drops into your stomach like a Abrams's tank.... driven by Rosanne Barr..." A. Bourdain

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to No_Strings
Good reason for cars to continue to use a real key. sure they can also be bypassed or simply hotwired. but has the fob and pushbutton really gained us anything in the cars?

I Cannot see any usage gain from a push button start, none at all over insert key and turn key.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Kearnstd
I had an alarm system like that installed mid 90's in my Honda. It sounded great when I was looking into car alarm systems but I found too many folks like you wanted to hear it tell them to back away if they got near the perimeter...I don't recall how many feet from the car that was. I finally had to turn off the alarm (causing too many complaints from neighbors being awakened from the alarm) and then my Honda was stolen out of my parking stall a few months later. It was 8 years old at the time but Hondas, especially back then, were the favorite brand to steal ....for the parts.

I bought a Ford as a replacement. I had a lot of vandalism to the Honda before it was stolen so I figured a Ford no one would vandalize. I replaced that Ford recently with another Honda. It has a key fob/alarm system. I don't like it because I could not get a third key made. I always carry an extra key in my purse but all I could get for this car was a blank that will open the driver's door. So, if I accidentally locked the keys in the car then that would enable me to retrieve them. But if I lose the keys, the blank key will not start the car.

I also hate the programming for the door locks. There are several choices and none are safe except the one that is the most irritating and cumbersome to use. My Honda is not a high tech one...thank goodness! Yet, it is still too "high tech" for me.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Kearnstd
The push button start is supposed to be a lot faster than insert key, etc start. Haven't you seen that hilarious Ford Fiesta video showing how the push button start can save your butt?!!

I wanted push button start but the Honda I ended up buying doesn't have that option.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


aannoonn

@optonline.net
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I replaced that Ford recently with another Honda. It has a key fob/alarm system. I don't like it because I could not get a third key made. I always carry an extra key in my purse but all I could get for this car was a blank that will open the driver's door. So, if I accidentally locked the keys in the car then that would enable me to retrieve them. But if I lose the keys, the blank key will not start the car.

You should already have three keys. Your Honda should have come with two complete key-fob keys, plus a valet key that will open the driver's door and start the car.

Check your owner's manual. If you didn't get all three keys, go to the dealer and insist they give them to you. Also note you can use the key number tag (which you should also have) to order additional keys.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Kearnstd
said by Kearnstd:

I Cannot see any usage gain from a push button start, none at all over insert key and turn key.

Having got one, I like it. Less fiddly, key doesn't snag in my pocket (though 'folding keys' obviate that problem). Do I 'need' it? No, but I like it. Or would if I hadn't heard it was insecure.

I like better the remote-start versions when you don't even have to stick the fob in the dashboard, you just need to have it. I briefly drove one such vehicle while mine was being serviced.

Do I need this stuff? No more than I need lights that switch themselves on. Or rain-sensing wipers. Or an arse-warmer in the seat. Or a bootstrap ROM on my PC ('real programmers have the absolute loader memorized').


r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Reviews:
·row44
reply to No_Strings
This sounds like stupidity in BMWs design.
1) you can break the window without setting off the alarm
2) you can turn on power in the car with no key
3) the OBD port does is not blocked without the key inserted (or even a separate computer key with a switch under the hood)
4) the cars computer does not have a password/pin that can be set by the owner (if the owner forgets the password/pin their only option is to buy a new computer).

The only way a thief should be able to steal a modern car is to remove the computer and replace with a new one.
To be able to easily program the computer already in the car is insane. BWM sucks even worse for what you pay for their cars.
--
...brought to you by Carl's Jr.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
You drive an F-150, don't you?


r81984
Fair and Balanced
Premium
join:2001-11-14
Katy, TX
Not even close.
I dont know how what I drive has to do with BMW poorly implementing security in their cars.
BMWs are supposed to be premium car for a premium price.


TheHarvester
Premium
join:2006-08-25
Dana Point, CA
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to No_Strings
said by No_Strings:

Why is it we need fobs again? Oh, yeah, to make us safer.

It does make you safer. Now they don't have to carjack you at gunpoint, All they do now is wait till you are SAFELY asleep in your nice warm bed.
--
mbsastronomy.com

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to aannoonn
No, I got two Master keys with remote transmitter (two buttons - one for "lock" and a red security light starts blinking on the daskboard) and the other for "unlock". There is also a red panic "bar" button. There is only ONE lock on the vehicle ...driver's door. This is a 5 door hatchback but doesn't have a lock for the back nor is there a lock on the front passenger door. This makes setting the lock security a real hassle. The damn doors all unlock when the engine is killed even though the key is still in the ignition. That is extremely dangerous in some neighborhoods and especially at night anywhere if in the car alone. Someone was murdered in Mexico due to stupid setups like this and auto manufacturers need to be sued to stop them from doing this because it is not just Honda. Doors should NEVER unlock until the driver unlocks them. To key my Honda that way, means that I cannot use the remote to unlock the passenger front door, the rear passenger doors, or the hatchback/trunk door. Any other programming makes the doors unlock automatically (all five) when the engine is killed. So, I have to unlock the driver's door with the remote and then open it and use the panel on the arm rest to open the other doors.

As for a valet key, that is irrelevant for the Fit. It is a hatchback without a trunk but has magic seats and the amount of head room, leg room, and cargo carrying space (after manipulating the magic seats) is amazing. It is a very spacious car (shouldn't be in the small car category ...Ford Fiesta is an example of small... and extremely popular here). There are two glove boxes (one big and one small) but neither have a lock on them.

i didn't get a key number tag. I did have Honda cut me a blank key that works on the one lock on the car but will not work on the ignition. Honda told me that if I need another remote key that I have to order it from them IN PERSON and they cannot make it there. I noticed that Ace Hardware was advertising that they had new blanks for all remotes for all vehicles/manufacturers. So, when I asked about my Honda they told me ONLY Honda they could not make a key for. They said the only way to get another remote for a Honda was from the Honda dealer.

I did get a radio code in case the radio/CD player gets stolen so it can it be found. That's good because Honda's used to constantly have their radios stolen.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

2 edits
said by Mele20:

The damn doors all unlock when the engine is killed even though the key is still in the ignition. That is extremely dangerous in some neighborhoods and especially at night anywhere if in the car alone. Someone was murdered in Mexico due to stupid setups like this and auto manufacturers need to be sued to stop them from doing this because it is not just Honda. Doors should NEVER unlock until the driver unlocks them. To key my Honda that way, means that I cannot use the remote to unlock the passenger front door, the rear passenger doors, or the hatchback/trunk door. Any other programming makes the doors unlock automatically (all five) when the engine is killed. So, I have to unlock the driver's door with the remote and then open it and use the panel on the arm rest to open the other doors

The locks have programmable modes, read the manual to change it. You should be able to turn off the auto unlock feature entirely.




Double clicking the unlock button on the remote will unlock all the other doors and hatch not unlocked by the first click.


These are pretty standard operations on most cars with security systems for the last decade or so.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
I read the manual when I got the car. I could see no way to program it to keep the doors locked when the engine was killed. So, I drove down to Honda and spoke with my salesperson. He is not some newbie dragged in off the street. He has worked there many years and knows Hondas upside down and inside out. He bought this same Honda for his elderly mother (the 2011 model...mine is 2012). He told me it could not be programmed the way I want it. It is still possible he is wrong about this so I will ask someoine else at Honda...well, maybe not, because I don't want to offend him as he handles everything for the car like coming out to the house to pick it up for servicing, etc.

All doors unlock when the ignition is killed. At least Honda was not as stupid as many auto manufacturers about it. Other manufacturers have it so that when the vehicle is not moving for x number of seconds the doors all unlock even though the engine is still running! That is even more dangerous and people have been murdered because of it.

As an aside, I hate that the doors lock automatically after the car has been moving for a few seconds and that also cannot be turned off. I only want the doors locked when driving at night. My previous car was much better in this regard. It had remote control with four buttons and I thought that is what I was getting on this Honda.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


A non

@151.190.0.x
Follow the instructions above for "To turn off the Auto Door Unlock modes". Afterwards, you should still be able to use your keyfob to unlock the doors. And the auto door locking should still work when you shift out of Park.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to Mele20
Why don't you try the 2011 manual's procedure for disabling the auto-door-locking?

My guess, based on a sample of 2, is that no car vendor implements automatic locking without having a way to disable it.

Locked doors do slightly increase safety in the event of a crash.

»www.cartalk.com/content/does-loc···accident

Kearnstd
Space Elf
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to Mele20
interesting about the honda method. I know my 2012 Cruze unlocks them when I put the transmission into park. But I think I have an option to change that to disabled or manual unlock.
--
[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17

4 edits
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

I read the manual when I got the car. I could see no way to program it to keep the doors locked when the engine was killed.

Again from the manual:

page from 2012 Honda Fit manual

From the 2012 Honda Fit Owner's Manual, to turn off auto-unlock mode:

1. Set the parking brake.
2. Open the driver's door.
3. Turn the Ignition switch to ON.
4. Press and hold the rear of the master door lock switch on the drivers door for more than five seconds. You will hear a click twice.
5. Release the door lock switch.
6. Turn the ignition switch to ACCESSORY within 20 seconds.
7. Done.

See pages 84-89 of the manuals, that's where the lock mode configuration info was in the PDF manuals for 2010, 2011, and 2012 Honda Fit.
said by Mele20:

So, I drove down to Honda and spoke with my salesperson. He is not some newbie dragged in off the street. He has worked there many years and knows Hondas upside down and inside out. He bought this same Honda for his elderly mother (the 2011 model...mine is 2012). He told me it could not be programmed the way I want it. It is still possible he is wrong about this so I will ask someoine else at Honda...well, maybe not, because I don't want to offend him as he handles everything for the car like coming out to the house to pick it up for servicing, etc.

I linked to the 2011 in my previous post, the 2012 one in this post. Read it again and then show it to the Honda Salesman. The salesman should know how to do this since he should be setting up and signing off on some basic car settings for the customer he's selling cars to. You should be offended he doesn't know the car he's selling, so teach him and if he's offended, oh well.




said by Mele20:

As an aside, I hate that the doors lock automatically after the car has been moving for a few seconds and that also cannot be turned off.

It can be turned off. See the manual again. It's a very similar process to the auto-unlock diable, but you push the front of the lock button instead of the back during the configuration.
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
Aside: you gotta laugh at these insane user interfaces. Would a couple of push-buttons and a tiny display have really blown the cost of materials? Or surely there's something already on the dashboard that they could re-purpose for 'config mode'.

1. Set the parking brake
2. Open the driver's door
3. Put your left(*) foot in
4. Put your left(*) foot out
5. Do the hokey-pokey(#) and you wave it all about

UK models:
* use right foot
# do the hokey-cokey


DrDrew
That others may surf
Premium
join:2009-01-28
SoCal
kudos:17
said by dave:

Aside: you gotta laugh at these insane user interfaces. Would a couple of push-buttons and a tiny display have really blown the cost of materials?

Things like that seem to be SOP for configuring rarely changed options like lock modes or clearing change oil/check engine/low tire indicators, i.e. stuff the dealer or mechanic usually deals with.

My in-laws are overwhelmed enough by the standard controls, let alone the switches for fog lights, seat heaters, electric mirrors, and other options. More switches for this is just useless crap that'll confuse them more. They'll wind up locking themselves out with flat tires and no oil in the car...
--
If it's important, back it up... twice. Even 99.999% availability isn't enough sometimes.


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
said by DrDrew:

They'll wind up locking themselves out with flat tires and no oil in the car...

Sounds like the roads would be a safer place that way.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
said by No_Strings:

said by DrDrew:

They'll wind up locking themselves out with flat tires and no oil in the car...

Sounds like the roads would be a safer place that way.

So anyone over 30 should not drive, right? If you are older than that you didn't grow up on computers. The fact that tons of mostly irrelevant options confuse them doesn't mean they are unsafe drivers. One reason I bought this Fit was because it is NOT a high tech car.

I had a strange icon come on the dashboard when I started the engine one day. It looked sort of like a sailboat with a small "c" next to it. I had no idea what it was for. I kept looking at it instead of looking at the road and was about to pull over and get out the manual to look up what it was as I didn't know if it was trying to say it was unsafe to drive the car or something. But then it disappeared before I could pull over. So, when I got home I took the manual out of the car and into my home and looked the symbol up. It is the symbol for "cold engine". Geez...whatever happened to the gauge for that? I'd far prefer a gauge. A gauge gives MUCH MORE information regarding the temp of the engine at ALL TIMES.

Lex Brodie's has an ad about the low tire pressure icon. They want you to come in so they can disconnect it as people say they have checked their tire pressure and it is ok but that stupid icon remains and in the ad the gal says "should I use a black magic marker to get rid of it?" and then Lex Brody says "No, bring it in and we will get rid of it". (Something like that...that is not an exact quote from the ad). I have driven for over 50 years and done just fine regarding keeping the tire pressure correct without any tire pressure sensor. (Although that harder these days when it is not easy to find a service station that doesn't charge a lot more for full service at a gas pump).

There is one sensor I like. The oil one. Honda sent me a letter a few weeks ago with a coupon saying it was time for an oil change. BS. The sensor says remaining oil life is at 80%.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


No_Strings
Premium,MVM,Ex-Mod 2008-13
join:2001-11-22
The OC
kudos:6
Hyperbole much?

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to DrDrew
said by DrDrew:

Double clicking the unlock button on the remote will unlock all the other doors and hatch not unlocked by the first click.

These are pretty standard operations on most cars with security systems for the last decade or so.

Thank you! I missed that completely when I read the manual. With my previous auto, the remote only locked/unlocked the driver's door (it was a two door sports coupe) and a second button unlocked/locked the trunk. No clicking twice for unlocking the other door/trunk.

It is wonderful to be able to unlock the hatch with the two clicks (and the back door on the driver side where I put packages many times instead of in the hatch).

I think I need to read the entire manual again. Who knows what else useful I missed or read and then forgot because there was a lot to remember?

My salesman told me to not bother reading the manual ....that most folks hate them and don't read them. He said to call him (gave me cell and landline numbers) or stop by (dealer is right by the main shopping centers here) and ask him instead of reading the "confusing" (his word) manual.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to DrDrew
OK. I got the manual tonight and read that section again. Now I recall what I hated about that section and why I didn't want to look at it. It has those extremely confusing, hard to follow flow charts! I have always HATED flow charts and usually can't make heads or tails of them. I see no point in flow charts when if the instructions were just written like you did in your post it would be so easy to follow ....but, no, the manual writers have to make it very hard to follow by using flow charts instead of a simple list of, in this case, seven steps to follow.

I remember now that the reason I went down and asked the salesman about it was because I got so confused by those flow charts and how to read them. Extremely difficult to follow. My brain doesn't work that way. I have always been an outstanding reader (scored at sophomore college reading level in the fifth grade on the Stanford Reading Test...highest score ever at the time in my home state) but I can't do flow charts worth shit.

Evidently, the salesman just turned off the auto unlocking settings entirely. I'll turn off the auto locking settings tomorrow. I remember now that the salesman said that should not be turned off because it was a safety thing in case of accident so the door would not come open. I wish I had told him to turn them off anyway as now I have to remember to lock the driver's door (and other doors if I had them unlocked) manually at night. I've had seven months now to get used to not doing that.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to aannoonn
said by aannoonn :

[
You should already have three keys. Your Honda should have come with two complete key-fob keys, plus a valet key that will open the driver's door and start the car.

Check your owner's manual. If you didn't get all three keys, go to the dealer and insist they give them to you. Also note you can use the key number tag (which you should also have) to order additional keys.

I checked the manual tonight and the Fit comes with either 2 ignition keys with remote transmitter OR two ignition keys with no remote transmitter. There is no valet key and if your Fit comes with keys that have the remote transmitter you cannot also get just an ignition key.

You are right though that I should have gotten a key number tag. I don't recall getting it but I will look for it. I was there for over four hours (4PM-8PM) and was hungry and tired by the time I finally left so maybe it was given to me and I just don't remember. I was given the radio code tag and thought I lost it and went down and got it again...then I found it in a safe place at home. Honda was hell bent on not letting me leave until the deal was completed that evening. (They are one of the old fashioned, nasty dealers...Ford is by far the best dealer to work with...better than any other dealer I have ever dealt with, but the Fiesta was so tiny...it sort of forced me to Honda even though they are horrible to deal with---my previous two Hondas were deliberately purchased in Honolulu and shipped over because of the attitude of the local dealer...that attitude is better now than when I bought those two cars, but still awful compared to the local Ford dealer which is wonderful to work with.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

If you are older than that you didn't grow up on computers.

I am and I did.