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Frodo

join:2006-05-05
kudos:1
reply to Name Game

Re: Is it possible to quit Google?

I've been using this search engine:
»startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl
"Enhanced by Google"

"Startpage offers you Web search results from Google in complete privacy!

When you search with Startpage, we remove all identifying information from your query and submit it anonymously to Google ourselves. We get the results and return them to you in total privacy".

So they say.


Adrik Ivanov

@reserver.ru
said by Frodo:

I've been using this search engine:
»startpage.com/do/metasearch.pl
"Enhanced by Google"

"Startpage offers you Web search results from Google in complete privacy!

When you search with Startpage, we remove all identifying information from your query and submit it anonymously to Google ourselves. We get the results and return them to you in total privacy".

So they say.

Startpage is good, but isn't anyone curious as to why Google allows them to scrap their servers when they generate revenue based on knowing what people are searching? I'm not sure I fully trust them.

The HTTPS version of Duckduckgo on the other hand, appears trustworthy. Each time anyone discovers a 'potential' flaw in DDG the owner makes adjustments to fix the potential loopholes. For example Amazon-Cloud hosts his search indexers, and one person discovered that in theory - Amazon could scrap the searches. So Gabriel at DDG developed a system that uses proxy servers in the basement of his home to redirect your searches through the indexer. Gab is extremely privacy aware..

»www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/201···ous.html
I have now solved this problem by setting up a reverse proxy between me and S3. This costs me more bandwidth and server resources, but it is worth it to solve the privacy problem for you. Additionally, it actually improves usability because a) I set up a cache on my end and b) I can now turn off https to S3. Furthermore, it is even more private than simply dropping the Referer string. Since you are no longer making the request on your side, your IP address isn't being sent to them at all. I can also explicitly set the Referer string (using the nginx more headers module), which I set to '»duckduckgo.com/';

I haven't used Google in quite some time, and if I do I ensure I am on an overseas proxy before I do. There are a few major contenders for videos that are up and coming that will challenge Youtube. Unfortunately one of the big players was MegaUpload, they had an amazing video service but the feds didn't like them challenging the cartel corporations. I would never, ever, install or log into anything google, ever. Chrome is privacy suspicious, Iron is much better in this regard, but I think Opera is probably the safest to use.

Frodo

join:2006-05-05
kudos:1
said by Adrik Ivanov :

Startpage is good, but isn't anyone curious as to why Google allows them to scrap their servers when they generate revenue based on knowing what people are searching? I'm not sure I fully trust them.

They're quick. The other sister site is »ixquick.com/
No mention of Google on that site. I've tried Duckduckgo but the results didn't seem "google" like. Haven't tried them lately.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Frodo
If you use Fx, then use Google Sharing extension. It is much better than Startpage.

»www.googlesharing.net/

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Adrik Ivanov
Duckduckgo has terrible search results. Plus, that is Amazon. I hate Amazon as much, if not more, than Google.

The best current solution (since the demise of Scroogle) is Google Sharing extension for Fx.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Adrik Ivanov

@reserver.ru
said by Mele20:

Duckduckgo has terrible search results. Plus, that is Amazon. I hate Amazon as much, if not more, than Google.

The best current solution (since the demise of Scroogle) is Google Sharing extension for Fx.

Actually DDG has the most relevant search results. Why? They only robot actual links to other links, rather than all web content. This means the searches are always going to result in valid working links, that lead somewhere important. Google spiders trawl the entire internet, offering really stupid results. Also Google tampers with results to convey their desired end-result - untrustworthy.

Do you even read? I already posted how doing DDG searches doesn't even expose you to Amazon because DDG uses a reverse proxy to protect user searches. Have you checked the privacy policy on that search proxy you are recommending? Might want to.. Not to m ention Firefox is crap anyone. DDG has one of the best privacy policies in the industry. DDG has no affiliation whatsoever with Amazon, they merely contact some of their server architecture, then install additional privacy protection over that. Why? DDG used to run on servers in Gabriels basement, but it has become so popular he needed to leverage much much more server power to maintain speed and accuracy. The indexers I believe are still housed in his basement, along with the reverse proxy that protects users IP from being sniffed.

Once again - read the links: »www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/201···ous.html

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
I don't need to be spoon-fed. I like to make my own decisions about what web sites are "important". Why would I do a search in the first place if I did not want ALL WEB CONTENT for my search terms returned? Duckduckgo is trying to control MY search. I don't want that! The same thing happens with Startpage and don't like it either.

Yes, I have read the privacy policy for Abine. Yeah, I have to trust that they are telling the truth. Just as I would have to trust that what you say about Duckduckgo search is the truth and just as I had to trust Scroogle was telling the truth. If I liked puny search results like I get with Duckduckgo then I might decide to trust its privacy policy but I think Duckduckgo has horrible search results so I don't need to decide whether or not to trust its privacy policy. Same with Startpage...crappy search results and Startpage uses an SSL provider that I have as untrusted in my browsers and it makes for lots of difficulty (except on Opera) when trying to make a trust exception for Startpage SSL cert.

I use the Proxomitron with Sidki's 12/2011 configs. It protects me with Google and Google Sharing extension simply provides another layer of protection. I hope to see Google Sharing extended to Sea Monkey and Opera in the near future as I have seen Ghostery get extended to them.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


KodiacZiller
Premium
join:2008-09-04
73368
kudos:2
reply to Adrik Ivanov
said by Adrik Ivanov :

Chrome is privacy suspicious, Iron is much better in this regard, but I think Opera is probably the safest to use.

There is no difference in Iron and Chromium. I saw an article where a guy got the Iron source code and diff'ed it against the Chromium codebase. He found that the only difference is they deleted a few lines of code related to the RLZ tracking and a couple of other things that can be easily turned off in Chrome.

In any case, Chromium (the development version of Chrome) has none of these tracking features by default. (No RLZ, no usage statistics, and no auto-updates). Even in regular Chrome, all of them can be turned off.

So you might as well use Chromium and not a project ran by amateurs such as Iron.

EDIT:

I would also like to add that those of you looking for a privacy enhanced search engine (with better results than DDG), take a look at privatelee.

»privatelee.qrobe.it
--
Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
said by KodiacZiller:

There is no difference in Iron and Chromium.
...
In any case, Chromium (the development version of Chrome) has none of these tracking features by default.

Do you actually run it (Iron and/or Chromium) or you are just guessing about all of that?

I'm asking because I do (in fact, I type this post in the latest developer's version right now - v22.0.1203.0) and I know for sure, that Chromium always try to snoop my browsing via permanently set secure connection (TLSv1.1 - 443)) to clients4.google.com. I don't see that happen with Iron... Do you know how to turn it off in Chromium's settings without putting that host in hosts file (as I do)?
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to KodiacZiller
You are wrong. With Chrome you get Flash updates force fed and you cannot have Chrome without Flash nor can you allow Flash but control updates for it. You also get ALL UPDATES OF ANY SORT for Chrome FORCE FED to you. You have NO choices if you use Chrome. With Iron, YOU the user decide IF and WHEN you wish to update Iron.

Chrome is FULL of privacy invasion crap that is NOT in Iron. As for Flash, you want it for Iron you, the user, have to download Flash and you, the user, decides when it will be updated, etc.

With Chrome you have married Google and you always are naked in a glass house. That is not true for any other browser including Iron.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


aadsfs

@threembb.ie
Third time I have posted this (or similar link) in reply to you Mele20

Turning Off Auto Updates in Google Chrome »dev.chromium.org/administrators/···-updates


Kir Vasiliy

@reserver.ru
Here are some privacy tips I wrote up for Windows7+Browsing.

First disable/uncheck ALL of them except QoS and IPv4.. It's safe, and won't change anything except making your system more secure/faster: (unless you run a shared windows network of course) »tothepc.com/img/2010/02/disable-ipv6.png

Next select IPv6 then advanced, to disable LMHosts and Netbios via this method:
»www.techrepublic.com/article/get···/1059485

Now you need to disable Teredo and ISATAP. From the start menu/run command type; Basically hit start, then in the box at the bottom type in CMD to open command prompt.

Open a cmd prompt
Type the following commands one line at a time;
netsh interface ipv6 6to4 set state state=disabled
netsh interface ipv6 set teredo disable
netsh interface ipv6 isatap set state state=disabled

Next go download SRware Iron: (secure Chrome Browser)
»www.srware.net/en/software_srwar···load.php

Once installed load it up and in the address bar type: chrome://flags

Scroll down and ENABLE:
Override software rendering list
GPU compositing on all pages
Threaded compositing
GPU Accelerated SVG and CSS Filters
Disable GPU VSync
HTTP Pipelining
Built-in Asynchronous DNS
Preload Instant Search
Disable hyperlink auditing

The last one increases privacy because it disables the constant 'auditing' of links through various servers, and it also speeds up processing. Right click the ICON for IRON go to properties, then on the command line to execute it add a space, then --incognito and this will launch it always in higher privacy mode. »www.blogcdn.com/downloadsquad.sw···asdf.jpg

CLOSE the browser, shut down the system (full shutdown), then turn everything back on, go into the browser, and see what you find.

What you will LIKELY find is a significant improvement in browsing speed/page rendering in Windows Vista/7.


Kir Vasiliy

@reserver.ru
reply to KodiacZiller
Thats a cool search engine, thanks!

One way to enhance privacy with Startpage is to 'force' the IP to use their off-shore servers + encryption, thereby bypassing any US-Based storage of your searches on any potential server clusters. Spreading yourself over multiple jurisdictions. For example to enforce a search to a Netherlands based, higher security Startpage server, you'd merely enter:

»eu3.startpage.com/

alternatively;

85.17.181.230

I think I was one of the first people to figure this out, then research it. I have dozens of IP's for Startpage over multiple jurisdictions outside of the USA, and toggle between them as necessary, spreading my searches out, reducing potential tracking. Enhancing privacy.


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1

1 recommendation

reply to Kir Vasiliy
said by Kir Vasiliy :

Here are some privacy tips I wrote up for Windows7+Browsing.

my tips:

a) reformat
b) install linux
c) profit
--
--Standard disclaimers apply.--
The preceding posting is null and void in Arizona and any other jurisdiction where prohibited by law.

OZO
Premium
join:2003-01-17
kudos:2
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

You are wrong. With Chrome ...

He was talking about Chromium, not Chrome. They're different animals.
--
Keep it simple, it'll become complex by itself...


KodiacZiller
Premium
join:2008-09-04
73368
kudos:2
reply to Mele20
said by Mele20:

You are wrong. With Chrome you get Flash updates force fed and you cannot have Chrome without Flash nor can you allow Flash but control updates for it.

That is true in Chrome but absolutely not true with Chromium. Chromium does not bundle flash.

You also get ALL UPDATES OF ANY SORT for Chrome FORCE FED to you. You have NO choices if you use Chrome.

Not true. Auto-updating can be turned off in Chrome (and is not present at all in Chromium).

Chrome is FULL of privacy invasion crap that is NOT in Iron.

Can you read source code? I am doubting it. Let's listen to those who can. There is absolutely zero difference in Iron and Chrome outside of Iron deleting the code related to RLZ and auto-update. Zero, zilch, nada. No difference. And RLZ and auto-update can be turned off in Chrome.

With Chrome you have married Google and you always are naked in a glass house. That is not true for any other browser including Iron.

IE perhaps?
--
Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to Mele20
Good chart at this first link Mele20..

ChromiumBrowserVsGoogleChrome
Differences between Google Chrome and Linux distro Chromium

»code.google.com/p/chromium/wiki/···leChrome

_______________________________________________

Chromium is the open source web browser project from which Google Chrome draws its source code.[3]
The Chromium Project takes its name from the element chromium, the metal from which chrome is made.[4] Google's intention, as expressed in the developer documentation, was that Chromium would be the name of the open source project and that the final product name would be Chrome.[5] However, other developers have taken the Chromium code and released versions under the Chromium name and these are listed at community builds.
One of the major aims of the project is for Chrome to be a tabbed window manager, or shell for the web, as opposed to it being a traditional browser application. The application is designed specifically to have a minimalist user interface. The developers state that it "should feel lightweight (cognitively and physically) and fast".[6]

Differences from Google Chrome

Chromium is the name given to the open source project and the browser source code released and maintained by the Chromium Project.[7] It is possible to download the source code and build it manually on many platforms. Google takes this source code and adds:[8]
integrated Flash Player[9]
built-in PDF viewer[10]
built-in print preview and print system
the Google name and more colorful logo
auto-update system called GoogleUpdate
an opt-in option for users to send Google their usage statistics and crash reports
RLZ tracking when Chrome is downloaded as part of marketing promotions and distribution partnerships. This transmits information in encoded form to Google, e.g., when and from where Chrome has been downloaded. In June 2010, Google confirmed that the RLZ tracking token is not present in versions of Chrome downloaded from the Google website directly or in any version of Chromium. The RLZ source code was also made open source at the same time so that developers can confirm what it is and how it works.[11]
By default, Chromium only supports Vorbis, Theora and WebM codecs for the HTML5 audio and video tags; whereas Google Chrome supports these, plus AAC and MP3. On 11 January 2011, the Chrome Product manager, Mike Jazayeri, announced that Chrome will no longer support the H.264 video format for its HTML5 player, equally as Chromium does not.[12] As of June 2012, however, Chrome still supports H.264. Certain Linux distributions may add support for other codecs to their customized versions of Chromium.[13]

Chromium is officially ported to run on Android (4.0 and later), Chrome OS, Linux, Mac OS X (Intel only) and Windows.[75] As of 2012, 32-bit and 64-bit Linux builds are possible, with only 32-bit builds possible for Mac OS X and Windows.[76]

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_(···e_Chrome
--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to aadsfs
said by aadsfs :

Third time I have posted this (or similar link) in reply to you Mele20

Turning Off Auto Updates in Google Chrome »dev.chromium.org/administrators/···-updates

So what? I am not a BUSINESS. Most users are NOT businesses. I don't want to have to download group policy templates for Google Chrome and other Google programs, set all that up, edit the registry, etc just so that Chrome will no longer automatically update. Gee, I don't have to do anything like that with Iron or with any other browser ALL OF WHICH RESPECT MY RIGHTS...all except Chrome (and Safari and I won't touch that crap browser either). Besides, Chrome would still spy on me (or at least try to). Plus, there is no mention of how to keep Flash out of Chrome. Or, if you really want it, how to keep it from auto updating and resetting your privacy settings without your permission.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


KodiacZiller
Premium
join:2008-09-04
73368
kudos:2
said by Mele20:

said by aadsfs :

Third time I have posted this (or similar link) in reply to you Mele20

Turning Off Auto Updates in Google Chrome »dev.chromium.org/administrators/···-updates

So what? I am not a BUSINESS. Most users are NOT businesses. I don't want to have to download group policy templates for Google Chrome and other Google programs, set all that up, edit the registry, etc just so that Chrome will no longer automatically update.

Use Chromium then. It has no auto-update and no other kind of tracking.

Personally I like it that Chrome updates itself automatically. Too many people out there refuse to update their machines. And since the browser is the #1 attack vector, I think Google is doing the right thing.
--
Getting people to stop using windows is more or less the same as trying to get people to stop smoking tobacco products. They dont want to change; they are happy with slowly dying inside. -- munky99999

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

1 edit
I have no intention of using Chrome, Chromium or Iron. I hate the sandboxed tabs, the HUGE amount of RAM needed (because of the sandboxed tabs), the mess the sandboxed tabs make of Task Scheduler Manager so that you almost can't use it, and, most of all, the general crudeness of Chrome/Chromium/Iron browser and the mostly childish, stupid extensions available.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


AVD
Respice, Adspice, Prospice
Premium
join:2003-02-06
Onion, NJ
kudos:1
sandboxed tabs offer tremendous security and also work very nicely in a multi-core or multiprocessor environment.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
This is a multi processor computer even though old now. I've had a multi processor computer since 2003 (this is my second one that has multi processor). I need more RAM though and can't add it because nVidia mobo limited the amount of RAM (unless I had installed XP Pro 64 bit and then I could have had up to 8GB RAM) in what was Dell's flagship gaming computer when it was new. The only reason I can think for why the RAM was so limited is because XP 64 bit was still thought to be viable but it never did get the driver support needed. (Dell told me I could add RAM on 32bit XP Pro which was incorrect).

I don't need the security. I use the Proxomitron and on this computer also Process Guard. Even when I get a new computer, I shouldn't need sandboxing of tabs. That is for ignorant of computers users and those without proper layered security.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
Have to admit..you have this thing for Google just like i have for Dell..would not touch their stuff if they gave it away.


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
said by Name Game:

Have to admit..you have this thing for Google just like i have for Dell..would not touch their stuff if they gave it away.

Free is how I obtained the Dell equipment that I have used in the past. I don't currently have any Dell equipment in use...the last Dell PC I had went belly up about a month ago, and I didn't feel like bothering to see if the problem was the MB or the PSU (and I didn't have any more "known good" Dell MBs or PSUs lying around). I replaced it with a Toshiba notebook that I similarly obtained (I had several bad ones in storage, and I swapped parts around to make one useable one).

Customer: "You have to be kidding, I can buy a new PC for less than your repair estimate!"

Me: "OK, I'll dispose of this old Dell PC for you, do you want me to send you your 'My Documents' stuff on a CD/DVD?"
--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
See, that is why I stick with Dell. I pay for the 5 year extended warranty which comes out to the price of a cheap computer. I'd love to configure a Falcon but the shipping costs for a 55 pound desktop from Hawaii to the West Coast and back would be prohibitive even once (not to mention the hassle of having to box it up and take it to UPS). Falcon has a good warranty....but ONLY for those in the contiguous states. When the warranty on my current computer ran out...I've just used it with its problems partly because it is old, and time for a new computer, but also because the cost to fix it locally is prohibitive at any point during its life span. Small things I can fix myself but not big ones and not anything that requires a tear down of the computer to get to whatever needs fixing or replacing.

So, I stay with Dell and their extended warranty which currently is USA phone support...no more India...and decent in home repair. I do take issue with Dell forcing me to buy protection for spills and dropping the computer. It is extremely unlikely that i will be dropping a desktop computer that sits in a cabinet or that I will be spilling liquid all over it...how could I do that unless deliberate? Then I also resent Dell's forcing me to buy software support which I don't need. Dell never did this until their new line. If I lived on the Mainland, I would probably not have bought a Dell after my second one back in 2003.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage

1 edit
I used to do authorized field support for Dell (and several other brand name PC makers), although most of my support was targeted to enterprise level customers instead of residential/soho/smb customers. I stopped doing that however long before I retired because the calls were frequently to small branch offices or plants in the boonies, and the pay schedule for that kind of work seldom included adequate reimbursement for calls with 2-3 hour drive times (and my arthritis had started to make multi-hour drives on winding mountain roads a bit less than pleasurable, despite the nice scenic views).

The availability of local hardware support is one reason that I did in fact recommend Dell to soho/smb clients who did not have in-house support capabilities. I made my money from those clients with value added services, not from selling them hardware.

I wasn't necessarily knocking Dell with my previous post. If I didn't think their products were worth using, I would not have bothered to occasionally make one good one from several dead ones for my own in-house use.

Hmm, when did this thread morph from a Google thread to a Dell thread?
--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower


Krystal Trav

@switchvpn.com
reply to Name Game
said by Name Game:

Have to admit..you have this thing for Google just like i have for Dell..would not touch their stuff if they gave it away.

Yeah Dell is absolute trash.

People need to build their own PC's, it's not complicated and you can do fun stuff like use 2 SSD's and install Windows on one and Linux on the other, if you don't game, skip windows altogether and roll with Mint or something. But Dell is very painful, they use poor components, and install massive bloat onto their machines. I wouldn't recommend Dell to someone I disliked for fear of being too evil to them - let alone someone I liked!

A $600.00 computer - self built, is fast, and will be fast for years. A $600 Dell box is obsolete the day you get it, and requires extensive upgrades if you make even minor changes. You know those awesome 250w PS's, and hideous graphic cards they use. IF you choose to go with a higher end Dell, bend over! Lotta talk on these forum from people that are trying to appear to be experts, but the fact is folks like Mele20 are newbs - security or otherwise.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

1 edit

1 recommendation

The entire computer-using population of the USA 'need to build their own PCs'? I think your viewpoint might be just a teeny bit myopic.

Actually, that much is obvious, given you're sneering at 250W power supplies with no context given. The last two desktop PCs I built (which would have met your $600 price point except I added $200 worth of SSD on top of that) have 150W power supplies, which is maybe double the steady-state requirement. And they perform pretty well.

The "my power supply is bigger than yours" crowd seems to have, uh, issues.

There's room for both Dell and home-builts in the world. In fact, I use both. I have a perfectly adequate Dell server. Of course I could have built one, but why bother? It's already way faster than need be for what it actually does, which is backups and a little media-serving.


NetFixer
Freedom is NOT Free
Premium
join:2004-06-24
The Boro
Reviews:
·Cingular Wireless
·Comcast Business..
·Vonage
said by dave:

Actually, that much is obvious, given you're sneering at 250W power supplies with no context given. The last two desktop PCs I built (which would have met your $600 price point except I added $200 worth of SSD on top of that) have 150W power supplies, which is maybe double the steady-state requirement. And they perform pretty well.

The "my power supply is bigger than yours" crowd seems to have, uh, issues...

Yep, shown below are the UPS stats for my two servers, and the one with 140W usage also includes the common monitor and KVM used by both servers. Also the system that shows 115W usage has 5 internal HDDs (not low power SSDs), and two external HDDs (that are powered by the UPS, but not by that system's PSU).







And FYI, the reason I have not "standardized" on UPS brands/models is because I obtained those UPS boxes the same way that I obtained the Dell PCs that I have used; I got them from clients who preferred to purchase a new UPS rather than just buy new batteries (and pay me to replace them).
--
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Krystal Trav
said by Krystal Trav :

People need to build their own PC's, it's not complicated and you can do fun stuff like use 2 SSD's and install Windows on one and Linux on the other, if you don't game, skip windows altogether and roll with Mint or something. But Dell is very painful, they use poor components, and install massive bloat onto their machines. I wouldn't recommend Dell to someone I disliked for fear of being too evil to them - let alone someone I liked!

A $600.00 computer - self built, is fast, and will be fast for years. A $600 Dell box is obsolete the day you get it, and requires extensive upgrades if you make even minor changes. You know those awesome 250w PS's, and hideous graphic cards they use. IF you choose to go with a higher end Dell, bend over! Lotta talk on these forum from people that are trying to appear to be experts, but the fact is folks like Mele20 are newbs - security or otherwise.

That's hilarious. I know you are the newb not me because what you said about Dell is not at all true. Sure, I could build one and a local shop here offered me any help I needed if I did that....but it is a hassle being in Hawaii...ordering parts that take a while to get here, may be DOA, etc. It is not fun to build a computer when you live in Hawaii. This local shop told me I could have them build me a computer exactly as I want it and I could have full control over what parts and brands of parts were ordered, etc. I decided against that also.

This will be my fourth Dell. And yeah, any $600 computer is junk INCLUDING a self built one. My current Dell that is over six years old has a 650 watt power supply .... so what is this about a 250 watt one? The one I probably am going to buy has a small solid state drive and also 2TB regular hard drive and I'll probably order a second regular hard drive to be installed at the factory. As for graphics, yeah, the nVidia (what I want) cards Dell offers are mediocre but that is nVidia's fault as they have no midstream cards currently. So, if I buy now I'll be getting the Radeon 7870 which Dell says works fine with a 460 watt power supply. I want the GeForce GTX 660 Ti which is due out third week of August. So, I'm going to wait as I think Dell will offer it.

As for bloat installed by Dell...yeah, they used to do that (that's how Dell Decrapifier came about years ago) and that is why I have bought in the past from Dell Small Business Division as no crap installed on ones bought from there. But from Dell Home division the one I am probably buying (Dell pulled them from Small Business in April...the desktops...the laptops can still be bought from that division) has only one piece of crap on it...McAfee antivirus but I understand that is a trial although it says 15 months. But if not actually installed then there is no crap on Dells today.
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When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson