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tscbyt

join:2012-07-11
Yuba City, CA

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o IXP acc
Everyone has it wrong. Its not about cache or adding bandwidth. It is crazy that on the lowest quality, it still needs to stream at 1.5Mbit/sec. 1st problem is .WAV (REALLY). 2nd is Silverlight. most of the other streaming sites can push their content out at much lower rates then what netflix does. And the quality looks the same. So the problem we need to look at is why the hell does netflix need to stream at such high rates. They need to add a couple more quality lvl's that are lower then what they are now. shouldnt be a problem to stream video at around 600-700kbps

Hahausuck
Premium
join:2003-12-14
kudos:2
Huh???

GTOV8

join:2006-02-04
47894

1 recommendation

reply to tscbyt

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

I still say that we are all fools for putting up with NetFlix. Here is a service that is abusing our bandwidth and we, like Lemmins, just sit back and follow the bull and drop over the cliff.

If a commercial service came along and said they wanted to provide a cool service to consumers and they needed 120VAC power from us, or they needed natural gas or our consulting time, we would tell them to buzz off unless they compensated us.

Yet here is a commercial service that gets revenue from our customers and we have to pay more to increase our bandwidth so they can provide their service. We pay more so they can reap financial benefit.

We are being abused. It's time we stopped being so stupid and blocked NetFlix service until we get compensated. We need a unified national campaign to block their service until we get to share in their revenues.

GTOV8

join:2006-02-04
47894
reply to tscbyt

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

I still say that we are all fools for putting up with NetFlix. Here is a service that is abusing our bandwidth and we, like Lemmins, just sit back and follow the bull and drop over the cliff.

If a commercial service came along and said they wanted to provide a cool service to consumers and they needed 120VAC power from us, or they needed natural gas or our consulting time, we would tell them to buzz off unless they compensated us.

Yet here is a commercial service that gets revenue from our customers and we have to pay more to increase our bandwidth so they can provide their service. We pay more so they can reap financial benefit.

We are being abused. It's time we stopped being so stupid and blocked NetFlix service until we get compensated. We need a unified national campaign to block their service until we get to share in their revenues.


toby
Troy Mcclure

join:2001-11-13
Portland, OR
I'm sure you have customers that are paying you a monthly fee.

Do you want them to pay you, but not use the product? I don't understand.

jimbouse

join:2011-10-01
Bryan, TX
reply to tscbyt
said by tscbyt:

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o IXP acc
Everyone has it wrong. Its not about cache or adding bandwidth. It is crazy that on the lowest quality, it still needs to stream at 1.5Mbit/sec. 1st problem is .WAV (REALLY). 2nd is Silverlight. most of the other streaming sites can push their content out at much lower rates then what netflix does. And the quality looks the same. So the problem we need to look at is why the hell does netflix need to stream at such high rates. They need to add a couple more quality lvl's that are lower then what they are now. shouldnt be a problem to stream video at around 600-700kbps

I have users on a 512k tier that can stream NetFlix. I have users on 2&3 Mbit plans to do as well. Of course it makes the possible oversell ratio lower when they sit on NetFlix for hours. I maintain a 5:1 and don't have any trouble. I hear some ISPs say they are up to 20:1 and are complaining.

Plan your network according to TODAY's usage patterns, not a decade ago.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to tscbyt
"So the problem we need to look at is why the hell does netflix need to stream at such high rates."

It's a very simple answer. It's because they can.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to GTOV8

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

"Yet here is a commercial service that gets revenue from our customers and we have to pay more to increase our bandwidth so they can provide their service. "

Your problem is with your customer who is consuming more bandwidth not Netflix. If Netflix is upsetting your revenue stream then you should probably examine your business model a little more closely.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
said by battleop:

Your problem is with your customer who is consuming more bandwidth not Netflix.

That's true, it is the customer that is consuming the bandwidth.

My only issue with Netflix is that they have been quite vocal about criticizing ISP's for trying to manage the bandwidth on their networks to be able to sustain a positive revenue stream.

That and the fact they haven't been willing to worth WITH ISP's to do off-peak buffering or something like that. Most of my Netflix users that I've spoken to say they planning around having the movie download overnight and watching it the next day.

Chessie

join:2011-02-02
united state
reply to tscbyt

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

netflix is fine by me. I get to up sell my customers to the next package level. I make more money per month for the same install and in the scheme of things its only a small amount of additional bandwidth needed. I realize every WISP is different but we offer unlimited 1.5 or 3.0 service per month and every time I can sell that 3.0 meg package I do it.

jim_p_price7

join:2005-10-28
Henryetta, OK
reply to GTOV8
said by GTOV8:

I still say that we are all fools for putting up with NetFlix.

That logic is so far off base I don't know where to begin. Customers pay for an Internet connection. Who cares what they do with it? Either be in the business of selling an Internet connection or don't.

But if you're going to be in the business, then understand what your customers want to use it for, and apply the appropriate business model.

I've never understood the way ISP's badmouth Netflix for coming up with a successful business model as if they've done something wrong.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
reply to jcremin

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

Seen the new Netflix cache appliance? They're giving them away, though it takes an enormous connection to fill them for starters :/

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
Got a linky? Are you talking about a CDN »signup.netflix.com/openconnect or something an end-user would have in their home?
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3

1 recommendation

reply to jim_p_price7

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

said by jim_p_price7:

I've never understood the way ISP's badmouth Netflix for coming up with a successful business model as if they've done something wrong.

To be fair, not all ISPs (especially us WISP's) have the resources to build a business model that supports netflix or other video streaming services. Some use caps to limit usage to ensure that nobody does a lot of streaming, but then Netflix should keep their mouth shut about those "evil ISP's with unnecessary caps...."

Netflix gets attacked for 2 simple reasons: 1) they are the most mainstream streaming service, and 2) they have been vocal themselves.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to iansltx

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

said by iansltx:

Seen the new Netflix cache appliance? They're giving them away, though it takes an enormous connection to fill them for starters :/

No, I haven't... is it the thing that LLigetfa linked to? If so, that's not really where I run into issues. I can get enough backhaul, but it is the last mile that kills me. When trying to cover a 5+ mile radius with 900mhz (since that's the only frequency that will typically cover more than the 1 or 2 houses visible from the tower), AP capacity becomes a major issue. It only take a few people on 1 meg connections to consume all the available bandwidth on a 900mhz sector.

Oh, and here's a quote from that link above:

"Depending on your traffic profile, it may be more efficient to install Open Connect appliances in one or more metro network areas. Typically, this makes sense for individual markets serving a population of 100,000 or more broadband subscribers.The Open Connect appliance requires a 10 Gbps port. If your network fits this profile, you can find more details on deploying Open Connect Appliances in our Open Connect Appliance Deployment Guide."


battleop

join:2005-09-28
00000
reply to jcremin
"My only issue with Netflix is that they have been quite vocal about criticizing ISP's for trying to manage the bandwidth on their networks to be able to sustain a positive revenue stream."

I agree with this. Netflix should shut the hell up about this. Either help ease the problem or shut up. This is a Customer to ISP issue where Netflix has no say so.
--
I do not, have not, and will not work for AT&T/Comcast/Verizon/Charter or similar sized company.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
reply to LLigetfa
I was talking about the OpenConnect appliance.

iansltx

join:2007-02-19
Austin, TX
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·Verizon Online DSL
reply to jcremin
...so you can build pricing tiers that account for the fact that sustained use of the customer's plan allotment kills your network...right?

And yes, that was the link. Unfortunately you'd have to have dozens of WISPs collaborating...in the same area...with sufficient last mile connectivity...before something like that would make sense.


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to battleop
said by battleop:

It's a very simple answer. It's because they can.

Or how about "because noone wants to watch crappy quality videos" ?

I mean come on, they arent just streaming high quality to piss off providers, they are doing it because consumers want high quality. No one wants to watch a 320x240 video any more simply because it uses less bandwidth. Some people want HD that looks amazing on their HD TV. Some people just dont have a choice based on what their Internet connection can handle and will take what ever is the best quality they can get.

said by battleop:

Your problem is with your customer who is consuming more bandwidth not Netflix. If Netflix is upsetting your revenue stream then you should probably examine your business model a little more closely.

^^^^^ This I agree with.

Theres that saying that goes something like "fast, cheap, reliable - pick two."

I'll admit that in rural areas it can be difficult to get adequate amounts of competitively priced bandwidth to service lots of users, or users with high throughput requirements. The company I used to work for spent boat loads of money to build high capacity backhaul into rural areas to solve this problem, maybe you need to do the same - build backhaul to somewhere that you can get access to higher bandwidth at a cheaper rate to service the requirements of your users. Quite simply its the reality of the business you are in.

jcremin

join:2009-12-22
Siren, WI
kudos:3
reply to iansltx
said by iansltx:

...so you can build pricing tiers that account for the fact that sustained use of the customer's plan allotment kills your network...right?

Yes, that's why I sell a 768k connection for $40/mo, a 1 meg connection for $60, and a 1.5 meg for $80. I could sell a 1.5 meg for $40 and put a small cap on it, but I've chosen not to play the "speed game" where I try to advertise the fastest "up to" speed and then cap them. I still have a provision for "excessive use" but I've built my plans around what seems to be sustainable for my network.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to tscbyt

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

Sounds like you might need either a lower amount of subscribers on each ap or some limits with a fair access policy or UBB. (Assuming you have enough bandwidth for your subscribers)

We offer a 100GB monthly limit for this reason when it is reached the connection is slowed to 1.5 down and 128k up.

At least 1/3 of my customer base uses netflix. The only complaint I have about it is it by default goes to the best quality your connection can support it would be much more preferable if it started at 480P and let you change it up.

What type of gear are you using ?


Jim_in_VA

join:2004-07-11
Cobbs Creek, VA
kudos:4
What tier are you offering that slows to 1.5 down? I've never approached 100GB per month.
--
... need help? »evdo-tips.com/

jim_p_price7

join:2005-10-28
Henryetta, OK
reply to jcremin

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

said by jcremin:

said by iansltx:

...so you can build pricing tiers that account for the fact that sustained use of the customer's plan allotment kills your network...right?

Yes, that's why I sell a 768k connection for $40/mo, a 1 meg connection for $60, and a 1.5 meg for $80. I could sell a 1.5 meg for $40 and put a small cap on it, but I've chosen not to play the "speed game" where I try to advertise the fastest "up to" speed and then cap them. I still have a provision for "excessive use" but I've built my plans around what seems to be sustainable for my network.

@jcremlin, that's where we agree, and have taken the same path. My competition is priced lower. But his subs quit and come to me because although I am more expensive, they get what they pay for with me, all the time.

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08
reply to Jim_in_VA

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

We offer 5 down/512k up as well as 6 down/800k up for business. (The site has out of date information we have a planed update soon)

Ive only have 1 customer that goes over 100GB/mo frequently. Most customers sit between 30GB and 60GB.

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
said by OHSrob:

Most customers sit between 30GB and 60GB.

The wife and I can't seem to muster up even a tenth of that most times.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to jim_p_price7

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix is abusing ISPs

Agreed. To the OP : make your business plan sustainable and consistent. We move about 15TB a month on average and most customers are in the 50 to 80 GB per month range. A few do over 200GB, but a lot also stay under 10GB. We routinely get customers from other ISP's that have great sounding 'Up To' speeds on their Propaganda, but pathetic Caps or ridiculous overloading. Being Conservative, Consistent and Reliable has so far beaten out Overly Optimistic, Inconsistent and Unreliable (go figure).


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA
reply to tscbyt

Re: [Tech Ops] Netflix and ISPs w/ 50,000 subscribers or w/o

Meh, Netflix? What a bunch of horse shit. I mean seriously? You tell your customer that analog data should be downloaded from DirectTV. You tell them that any damn fool that thinks they should be able to download a movie every day is exactly that. You tell them Redbox is just in front of the grocery store. Then you tell them that you can give them 1.5 M/Bit/Sec sustained for about $1000.00 per month. Let them make the choice.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."

OHSrob

join:2011-06-08

1 edit
said by DaDawgs:

Meh, Netflix? What a bunch of horse shit. I mean seriously? You tell your customer that analog data should be downloaded from DirectTV. You tell them that any damn fool that thinks they should be able to download a movie every day is exactly that. You tell them Redbox is just in front of the grocery store. Then you tell them that you can give them 1.5 M/Bit/Sec sustained for about $1000.00 per month. Let them make the choice.

Direct tv is not analog it's digital mpeg2 probably DVB based.

Quite frankly as long as your customers are not using your service to break the law it is there right to do what they want within your usage limit.

You really should not take a soup nazi attitude towards this.


Jerm

join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA
kudos:2
said by OHSrob:

You really should not take a soup nazi attitude towards this.

+1

The future of video is online. Not like you can just ignore this until it goes away...


Semaphore
Premium
join:2003-11-18
101010
kudos:1
reply to DaDawgs
said by DaDawgs:

Then you tell them that you can give them 1.5 M/Bit/Sec sustained for about $1000.00 per month. Let them make the choice.

ROFL - THOSE were THE days though weren't they ?