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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

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Re: [Rant] How fcked up is this? Severance for Fed employees

said by AR:

I don't understand "collective bargaining" because we don't have unions.

No, you have an employment contract that you negotiate directly with the employer on a one-on-one basis, rather than a group of people bargaining over that contract... collectively.

Regardless of how the contract was agreed to, the terms are binding.

Mike2009
join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON

Mike2009

Member

Most employment contracts are less negotiated and more dictated by the employer. Let's be honest here.

AR

join:2000-09-21
Toronto, ON

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You're kidding me?

1-1 basis?

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said by Mike2009:

Most employment contracts are less negotiated and more dictated by the employer. Let's be honest here.

While I'm sure the argument can be made that they'll just find someone else if you don't like the contract, the same argument can be made that no one is forcing you to sign, and nothing is preventing you from attempting to negotiate. It also doesn't change the fact that if certain benefits or perks are presented in an employment contract, the employer is bound to them and can't unilaterally change them without you agreeing.

Case in point - a friend of mine had an employment contract presented to him, and he crossed out an entire section saying he didn't agree with it. The employer had no problem with that and the section never applied to him. Myself, I had a contract presented to me with a few key terms that I really took issue with. I brought it up, they said it was standard and wouldn't remove them, so I didn't take the job.
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said by AR:

You're kidding me?

What's there to kid about? It's pretty straightforward. You have just as much right to negotiate a contract as anyone else.

In the case of the terms being binding, would you prefer the government be sued for a lot more money for violating a contract rather than just paying out, wiping their hands of it and being done with the whole thing?

Mike2009
join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON

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I've negotiated salary and vacation on new jobs but that's pretty much it. After that initial negotiation, it was more dictated by the employer with no deviation from company policies.

Gone
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Fort Erie, ON

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said by Mike2009:

I've negotiated salary and vacation on new jobs but that's pretty much it. After that initial negotiation, it was more dictated by the employer with no deviation from company policies.

The fact that you negotiated vacation pretty much proves my entire point. That, and they wouldn't have the right to get rid of your negotiated vacation time and return you to the provincial minimum without your consent, either.

Mike2009
join:2009-01-13
Ottawa, ON
TP-Link Archer C7
Technicolor DCM476
Grandstream HT701

Mike2009

Member

said by Gone:

said by Mike2009:

I've negotiated salary and vacation on new jobs but that's pretty much it. After that initial negotiation, it was more dictated by the employer with no deviation from company policies.

The fact that you negotiated vacation pretty much proves my entire point. That, and they wouldn't have the right to get rid of your negotiated vacation time and return you to the provincial minimum without your consent, either.

It's a good starting point but after that it's really up to the employer. To AR's point revisions to the bonus plan are usually made on an annual basis, may not be realistic or achievable and at times may not even be communicated to employees on a timely basis.

AR

join:2000-09-21
Toronto, ON

AR to Gone

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I was told that 15 days is the vacation time for everyone including Directors and VPs in their first year so no negotiation for me. 15 days: take it or leave it.

Negotiation on salary was with hiring manager and that's it.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by AR:

I was told that 15 days is the vacation time for everyone including Directors and VPs in their first year so no negotiation for me. 15 days: take it or leave it.

3 weeks. Not bad.

AR

join:2000-09-21
Toronto, ON

AR

I know.

Before, I had 10 with a US company and they brought it down to 4 during the recession (with 1 month's notice) because they wanted to cut their cost/employee.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by AR:

I know.

Before, I had 10 with a US company and they brought it down to 4 during the recession (with 1 month's notice) because they wanted to cut their cost/employee.

Ten weeks? What was that? A French company?

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said by DKS:

Ten weeks? What was that? A French company?

I think he means days? Ten days, of course, is the minimum legally allowed in Ontario per the ESA. An employer wouldn't be able to legally reduce it to four days during the recession.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by Gone:

said by DKS:

Ten weeks? What was that? A French company?

I think he means days? Ten days, of course, is the minimum legally allowed in Ontario per the ESA. An employer wouldn't be able to legally reduce it to four days during the recession.

If it was ten days, that is true.

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Fort Erie, ON

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said by DKS:

If it was ten days, that is true.

If it was indeed ten weeks, he has a lot of nerve complaining about the perks that federal government employees receive. My wife gets nowhere near that.

AR

join:2000-09-21
Toronto, ON

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yeah, 10 days. They reduced it to 4 (or 7 days, can't remember) for all employees in N.America.

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Fort Erie, ON

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said by AR:

They reduced it to 4 (or 7 days, can't remember) for all employees in N.America.

It wouldn't have been all of North America if they had Canadian operations. Paid vacation time is legislated in all provinces, and ranges between ten and fifteen days. Even if they "encouraged" employees to only take 4 or 7 days off, the employees would be legally entitled to pay in lieu and at one point or another it would need to be paid out or taken.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS

said by Gone:

said by AR:

They reduced it to 4 (or 7 days, can't remember) for all employees in N.America.

It wouldn't have been all of North America if they had Canadian operations. Paid vacation time is legislated in all provinces, and ranges between ten and fifteen days. Even if they "encouraged" employees to only take 4 or 7 days off, the employees would be legally entitled to pay in lieu and at one point or another it would need to be paid out or taken.

And a complaint would have the provincial labour ministry making inquiries. The HR department would also be missing a few people for suggesting such a bonehead idea. That's what HR people are paid to avoid.

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Fort Erie, ON

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said by DKS:

And a complaint would have the provincial labour ministry making inquiries. The HR department would also be missing a few people for suggesting such a bonehead idea. That's what HR people are paid to avoid.

Yup, and it's also important to point out that any clause in an employment contract that strips you of rights guaranteed under the ESA are considered void by that same legislation. It's impossible to have someone sign away their rights, even if they try.

Vacation and payment in lieu are two things that the Ministry of Labour does not screw around with. They come down hard and they come down fast.
peterboro (banned)
Avatars are for posers
join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

Member

said by Gone:

Vacation and payment in lieu are two things that the Ministry of Labour does not screw around with. They come down hard and they come down fast.

If you call 12 to 18 months for investigation and enforcement fast I suppose so.

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Fort Erie, ON

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said by peterboro:

If you call 12 to 18 months for investigation and enforcement fast I suppose so.

It took my mother four months from beginning to end.
peterboro (banned)
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join:2006-11-03
Peterborough, ON

peterboro (banned)

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said by Gone:

said by peterboro:

If you call 12 to 18 months for investigation and enforcement fast I suppose so.

It took my mother four months from beginning to end.

Helped a relative 3 years ago and it took 18 months. Looking at doing another and may go the small claims route with this one.

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said by peterboro:

Helped a relative 3 years ago and it took 18 months. Looking at doing another and may go the small claims route with this one.

My mother's was around five years ago. To be honest, I was surprised by how fast it was.