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Vinceruos_t
join:2012-05-04

Vinceruos_t to McBrain

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to McBrain

Re: Dead Board? An RP Adventure...

Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k... Scaling only got out of hand with cataclysm. I liked the idea behind it, but instead of just raising HP they also raised all the burst damage too so it defeated the whole purpose. You can burst someone down in arena just as fast as you could in wrath.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

McBrain

Member

I know for a fact that I've seen a tank in ICC with 30% buff over 100k HP in combat. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my point.

I agree that the numbers have been scaled up equally...but saying that, what's really the point? If the damage to health ratio is relatively the same, why the need to inflate the numbers to 2000% of the original?

It's time to scale things back...I'm sorry that it could effect gear all the way from 90 down, but base stats and stats from gear are too high. Why have 200k health and attacks that hit for 50k when you could just scale it down to 20k and 5k respectively?

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia to Vinceruos_t

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to Vinceruos_t
said by Vinceruos_t:

Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k... Scaling only got out of hand with cataclysm. I liked the idea behind it, but instead of just raising HP they also raised all the burst damage too so it defeated the whole purpose. You can burst someone down in arena just as fast as you could in wrath.

No. They didn't. Druids were hitting 80,000 in TotC 25 heroic hear, everyone else was 50,000 to 55,000 because EH was king. HP stabilized in ICC because of chill of the throne making mitigation stats over dodge stats more ideal. But by the end of 25 ICC HM 60,000 to 65,000 on a mitigation centric CTC warrior was easily possible, nevermind druids.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

1 edit

McBrain to Vinceruos_t

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to Vinceruos_t
said by Vinceruos_t:

Back in ICC, leet geared tanks had 50k HP. Not sure where you came up with 100k...

»www.tankspot.com/showthr ··· out-CDs)

That's just for druids...they could get ~150k with Survival Instincts up. I've seen Warriors over 100k in combat also.

This is obviously at the end of the expac when tanks were HM geared and carrying a 30% HP buff.
Watermasta
join:2012-06-15
Quantico, VA

Watermasta

Member

We're not talking about Cooldowns. Of course some tanks have CD's to blow that pop their health to unreasonable levels seeing as they are based on percentages.

Either way the numbers need to come down. It's a little ridiculuous. I thought the numbers for TBC was a pretty good mark.

For me, it's hard to judge what is "unhealable dmg" and what is just regular aoe healable damage.

"Oh shit this is pulsing on me for 30k dmg. Oh nevemind. I have 150k hp."

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

As a healer, I just don't care about the absolute value of the health. I'm far more concerned about the % of a person's health being removed by mob ability X... or dot Y. Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

1 edit

McBrain

Member

said by Immer:

Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

Big fat numbers are also stressful on the hamsters that run on exercise wheels to power the game.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

said by McBrain:

said by Immer:

Seeing smaller numbers would be helpful for my scrolling combat text... but that's about it.

Big fat numbers are also stressful on the hamsters that run on excersize wheels to power the game.

Don't worry about them those hamsters take huge breaks and procreate alot (thus have plenty of standbys.

Also they're geneticly altered to live longer and stay healthier longer

So they gotta strees them or they'll get fat from not having to work as hard as they procreate more and more.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

McBrain

Member

Damn you quoting me before I was cognizant enough to realize I misspelled exercise.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia to McBrain

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to McBrain
Exactly which is why Blizzard has confirmed it to be a problem. Hence the possible "item squish" or "Mega damage" solutions. I understand from a healing perspective that you can get away with using percentages, the problem is the game doesn't use that in abilities, it is straight numbers. In Wrath during Arthas Soul Harvest didn't deal 75% health, it dealt 50,00 damage before any mitigation. What is easier to math out on the fly, 50,000 damage on a tank with max HP of 67,798 that is down to 39,247 HP in terms of what heal to use factoring in mana or a 10,000 damage ability on a 14,000 health tank with 6,000 HP and you know heal x will heal for 3,000. In principal ratios and percentages my stay the same but for the average player smaller numbers are easier to glance at, compute, and make snap judgements bases on. The CPU calculations are equally worrying as the larger the numbers go the more computing it has to do. Period.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

McBrain

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I've missed you.

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
said by Adalicia:

Period.

I was gonna keep commenting... but then... oh well.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
Well that does depend on the fight, I recall there are some bosses (maybe in BC) that have percent based abilities thus can still kill 85's.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

There are encounters that use that mechanic but it is just that, a mechanic. But it is just that. A mechanic. Not used every encounter.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium Member
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

Premium Member

I'm just saying not all are HP# based so there are some %based
IMO there should be more % based because they can kill a toon no matter the level or over gearing.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

No, think about healing implications. Percentage based incoming damage, all damage, versus specific digital numbers on out going healing in conjunction with a non static resource pool and regeneration rate.

Immer
Gentleman
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join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer to DarkLogix

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to DarkLogix
No. contrary to what GC thinks... healer mana stress does not make healing fun. We should get to a point where gear makes content easier.... and then we get new content to have our fun back.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
What I'd do is not all boss abilities would be % based but it'd be more common to have such, also add some AOE % based heals with a CD, to better counter those mechs

Imagine a AOE heal thats 5% per sec for 20sec

and/or an AOE heal that takes all current healing and spreads it over the whole raid regardless of position, then have a mech that for a time does lots of AOE damage and no tank damage.

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

said by DarkLogix:

What I'd do is not all boss abilities would be % based but it'd be more common to have such, also add some AOE % based heals with a CD, to better counter those mechs

Imagine a AOE heal thats 5% per sec for 20sec

and/or an AOE heal that takes all current healing and spreads it over the whole raid regardless of position, then have a mech that for a time does lots of AOE damage and no tank damage.

This is how I know you've never seriously progression raided as a healer during the most stressful of encounters.

No. That doesn't sound fun, entertaining, or enjoyable. First and foremost an ability like that would be so imbalanced it wouldn't even be funny. Secondly it would require zero skill. Hit button do 100% of health healed over twenty y seconds. Currently in the MoP beta, guess what tank health pools are like? If your number is lower than 300,000 (at the low end) you're wrong.

No. Just. No.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

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DarkLogix

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Clearly you didn't get what I ment
it'd have to have a fairly long CD so it couldn't be spammed or even depended on but saved for that oh crap moment on the edge of a wipe

you alreadly know I haven't healed but that doesn't mean you should ignore parts of my post.

the idea would be like say remove the NPC buffs at the end of the ultra fight and maybe have the CD be 5-6min (or more) so you're at the point where everyone in the raid might be losing 100% of their health every few seconds, so you pop the CD and also keep throwing heals

Or your on the ozoe boss and some dps derps and all three make it, (say the blue one was in that group and the black one) so in a few sec you won't have any mana till the void dies, so just before you pop the CD and hope it holds you through till the void dies.

the idea is a long CD that would only get used once per fight and maybe not even then because you'd reserve it to the oh sh** moment, and though in 20sec it COULD heal to full it wouldn't be used when incoming damage is low enough for it to actually get anyone to 100% on its own

also make it have a debuff and apply as a buff to all in the aoe so that the raid can't get two of it or even get it a 2nd time on the same boss, add in a high mana cost a cast time (so you'll only stop other heals to cast it when you really need it.)

Of course every raid would want that ability available and would rant if you ever used it at a non-critical time (like those that pop Time warp/Hero/blood at the start of every fight)

Immer
Gentleman
Premium Member
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA

Immer

Premium Member

Hey, dark, I love the creative enthusiasm, but ada is right. What you are proposing would throw off balance. Blizz can't balance around a god-ability, no matter how long the CD is. They also don't want a situation where one healer can overcome a complete mechanics failure (dps derping example) during progression. We can do it once we've out geared the content... but that's acceptable then.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
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DarkLogix

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The idea would be have that instead of NPC's helping

ie the dragon aspects in madness, the aspects in ultra, the little bot in that boss to the left on the lower level in BWD, ect

and part of it would be to provide some counter to 200% incoming over 19sec so it wouldn't cheat the mech but if used at the right time then it could keep the raid going but at the wrong time it could wipe them (ie oh crap the tank healer just used it and while he was casting the tank died) also have it count as 1 brez so in 10man bam your dead tank can't be rezed and your going to wipe.

so no it wouldn't save you but without it in the fights I'm thinking of you'd die, also dps'ed derping wouldn't totaly be saved.

McBrain
BRB Face Melting
join:2010-05-06
Marietta, GA

McBrain

Member

So you want a hypothetical skill designed for a hypothetical encounter that has a hypothetical mechanic?

Interesting.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX

DarkLogix

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well there are plenty of encounters that have NPC's helping as it is, just remove them, ramp up the damage and make them hard throughout the xpak

Caelharrad
join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO

Caelharrad to McBrain

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to McBrain
said by McBrain:

So you want a hypothetical skill designed for a hypothetical encounter that has a hypothetical mechanic?

Interesting.

Hypothetically speaking, of course.
...
I agree that the idea is interesting, but that it makes it nearly impossible to balance encounters. I would be quite surprised to see anything like this in Mists.

mettachain
Goblineer
join:2011-09-27
Azeroth

mettachain to DarkLogix

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to DarkLogix
"helping" like tirion fordring in the LK encounter?

"helping" like thrall in the hour of twilight heroic?
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LOL

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia to DarkLogix

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to DarkLogix
Healing classes don't need more saves. Mechanics for a fight are a different story entirely but the faux ability you've come up with exists in some capacity across several classes. Massive channeled AoE heal CD: Divine Hymn. Damage reduction, Pain Suppression, saving grace, Guardian Spirit, group damage reduction, Power Word: Barrier. All via the priest class. If you want to discuss mechanics for hypothetical encounters, as you like, start trying to tack on imbalanced abilities to healers toolkits, no dice.

Edit: cause my phone is a cock.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
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DarkLogix to mettachain

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to mettachain
said by mettachain:

"helping" like tirion fordring in the LK encounter?

"helping" like thrall in the hour of twilight heroic?
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.
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LOL

Ok tirion's helping is over kill, I mean come on a mass battle rez?
thrall seems kinda crap other than at the one boss and then its kinda weak

Adalicia
Om Nom Nom
join:2009-10-13
Lincoln, NE

Adalicia

Member

That is the joke. They don't actually help, they simply alter the encounter via scripting.

DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
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join:2008-10-23
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DarkLogix to Adalicia

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to Adalicia
The point of my idea is to give something that LOOKs like a god ability but then after getting into raids turns out not to really be so powerful.

SO it'd be like you're there on christmas you open some epic new gift then a month later you see oh with these bosses its not quite as epic.

Give bosses some more percent based stuff and give healers some percent based stuff.