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lowww

@sonic.net

Legacy DSL unavailable

In another thread, DaneJasper mentioned that AT&T has "closed some markets and are forcing some customers to migrate", regarding their legacy dsl and u-verse(»Re: Unreliable speed). I'm curious about this because a couple of weeks ago I tried getting a relative set up with Sonic.net ADSL1, same thing I have(Fusion is not available here), but was told they were unable to get service. The Sonic.net rep said they were at 19,000+ feet. This relative lives directly across the street from me, so this was a surprise(I'm at ~12,500); but due to the age of the lines here and the fact they've probably done numerous patch jobs on them, I can believe that. I spoke with AT&T to double check, though, and they said again that DSL was not available, this time because there were no DSL ports available. I asked specifically, "so this isn't an issue with loop-length?"; they said no. AT&T said I could check back later and see if any ports have opened up due to someone dropping service. When I spoke with them before they never mentioned u-verse, but I just spoke again while writing this and and u-verse is now available at that address(to my knowledge, u-verse has never before been available in this city). Sonic.net's dsl availability tool currently says unavailable.

If what AT&T said about the lack of a port was true, could that have caused the Sonic.net rep to have seen a bad distance value, or am I more likely to just have two problems on that line(no port AND too far)? Would the lack of a port be an example of AT&T closing a legacy dsl market? Since I'm now seeing u-verse available and sonic.net says unavailable, it looks to me I'm just pure out of luck here, as far as being stuck with AT&T. Does this sound right?


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
I can imagine that the distance estimates could be based on an RT connection (12,500 ft) vs a CO connection (19,000 ft). I am ~4,000 ft from a VRAD (a type of RT which can deliver IPTV over VDSL), but on a CO connected loop at 9,156 ft.

U-verse can be delivered by VDSL (from a VRAD), or ADSL2+ (from a CO). CO connected ADSL2+ Internet (aka, "IPDSLAM") is typically on longer loops, and offers the same speed tiers as legacy ADSL.

The laws which used to require incumbent carriers to allow CLEC access are no longer in effect, so AT&T is not required to wholesale new services to CLECs.

Lack of an available port is not related to ADSL availability, beyond the possibility that AT&T is retiring ADSL hardware. It is my understanding that the manufacturers are no longer building/selling new ADSL hardware.

There may still be legacy ADSL hardware on the site, but demand will almost certainly exceed the number of available ports.

Does AT&T not offer comparable speeds for the U-verse Internet as were available with legacy ADSL? Or were you trying to sign up Sonic.net resold AT&T DSL. In the latter case, it may be difficult to impossible because AT&T is not required to offer reseller access to ADSL2+ loops, and the number of legacy ADSL loops is probably dwindling.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


lowww

@sonic.net
Correct, I was trying to sign up for Sonic.net's resold AT&T dsl. I don't believe there are any RT's around here(it's a small city, with most of the city's population less than 1.0 mile from the CO; I'm outside of town where the density is quite low, surrounded by orchards).

Honestly, I don't know what is going on. The Sonic.net availability tool today says service *is* available at that phone number. I guess that was my original question then, if a lack of a port would give Sonic a bad distance; or perhaps they will still tell me it is 19,000 feet and unavailable, and they simply didn't see a "no-port-available" flag the last time. I suppose I'll call Sonic later and try again.


DaneJasper
Sonic.Net
Premium,VIP
join:2001-08-20
Santa Rosa, CA
kudos:9
Did you place an order?

-Dane


lowww

@sonic.net
reply to lowww
Haven't placed an order yet; not sure if they will soon or if the urge to switch has passed. I did call a couple days ago and talk to a Sonic.net sales rep to double-check and they said the house is now showing at about 9k feet. However, as of writing this, the dsl availability tool has returned to saying "DSL is not currently available at your location." I suppose if they do decide to switch again we'll just have to check back daily till it says it's available.


Snypes

join:2003-12-29
Santa Rosa, CA
Normally if there is any question about the ability of a residence to be able to support DSL we can run a manual loop qualification on the address and then an engineer will test for the viability of running a connection there. If he gains a positive result he would update the engineering records and then we can proceed with an install. Sometimes when a number is moved from one address to another it does not properly update in one of AT&T's databases causing the confusion. If you want to send me your address in a private message I would be happy to put in a request to see if we can get you service.
--
DSL Support Specialist
Sonic.net, Inc.


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
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reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

I can imagine that the distance estimates could be based on an RT connection (12,500 ft) vs a CO connection (19,000 ft). I am ~4,000 ft from a VRAD (a type of RT which can deliver IPTV over VDSL), but on a CO connected loop at 9,156 ft.

U-verse can be delivered by VDSL (from a VRAD), or ADSL2+ (from a CO). CO connected ADSL2+ Internet (aka, "IPDSLAM") is typically on longer loops, and offers the same speed tiers as legacy ADSL.

VRAD/Remote/RT/IPDSLAM, whatever you want to call it, is simply a remotely deployed DSLAM. Whether it has an VDSL2/ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL1 line card(s) or ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL1, really doesn't matter. SLAMs with line cards that only support up to ADSL2+ can still offer IPTV, it's all about the line module(s) and aggregation method used.

Every DSLAM uses IP, either over ATM or Ethernet, calling it an IPDSLAM is kinda dumb.

said by NormanS:

Does AT&T not offer comparable speeds for the U-verse Internet as were available with legacy ADSL? Or were you trying to sign up Sonic.net resold AT&T DSL. In the latter case, it may be difficult to impossible because AT&T is not required to offer reseller access to ADSL2+ loops, and the number of legacy ADSL loops is probably dwindling.

No. Currently wholesale access is limited to 6Mbps, or 4Mbps in other areas.. unless they file new tariffs.

I don't think it's "resold AT&T". Sonic are essentially paying for a port on SLAM, aggregation from AT&T's network to Sonic's, and probably some other (port) fees on top of that. So from AT&T's BAS/BRAS, you get tunneled via L2TP to Sonic's POP, then you use their transit providers to actually reach the internet.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
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Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
said by xsbell:

VRAD/Remote/RT/IPDSLAM, whatever you want to call it, is simply a remotely deployed DSLAM. Whether it has an VDSL2/ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL1 line card(s) or ADSL2+/ADSL2/ADSL1, really doesn't matter. SLAMs with line cards that only support up to ADSL2+ can still offer IPTV, it's all about the line module(s) and aggregation method used.

There is a reason why AT&T calls it a VRAD instead of an RT.

Every DSLAM uses IP, either over ATM or Ethernet, calling it an IPDSLAM is kinda dumb.

AT&T is calling it "IPDSLAM" for a reason.

said by NormanS:

Does AT&T not offer comparable speeds for the U-verse Internet as were available with legacy ADSL? Or were you trying to sign up Sonic.net resold AT&T DSL. In the latter case, it may be difficult to impossible because AT&T is not required to offer reseller access to ADSL2+ loops, and the number of legacy ADSL loops is probably dwindling.

No. Currently wholesale access is limited to 6Mbps, or 4Mbps in other areas.. unless they file new tariffs.

AT&T doesn't have a 4Mbps tier.

I don't think it's "resold AT&T". Sonic are essentially paying for a port on SLAM, aggregation from AT&T's network to Sonic's, and probably some other (port) fees on top of that. So from AT&T's BAS/BRAS, you get tunneled via L2TP to Sonic's POP, then you use their transit providers to actually reach the internet.

I don't know how Sonic.net handles the 768k/1536k/3008k/6016k tiers they sell, but they track the legacy AT&T ADSL tiers.

OTOH, I am told that their "Fusion" product is on their own equipment at the CO. Sonic.net won't sell ADSL unless there is AT&T dial tone on the loop. But they provide the "Fusion" dial tone.

AT&T isn't required to provide ADSL2+ service to CLECS. So how can they service my loop with ADSL2+, if they can't get it from AT&T?

From my old residence in western San José, AT&T legacy ADSL went from the DSLAM to a Redback (aggregation) in an AT&T POP center in Pleasanton, California.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum


leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:10
Reviews:
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reply to xsbell
said by xsbell:

Every DSLAM uses IP, either over ATM or Ethernet, calling it an IPDSLAM is kinda dumb.

I have seen the term IP-DSLAM used in two ways. In some cases it is used simply to refer to any DSLAM that uses Ethernet (instead of ATM) uplinks. That would be totally irrelevant for the DSL customer since nothing changes on the CPE side (the IP packets are still chopped into ATM cells and reassembled on the other end).

However more frequently I see IP-DSLAM used in the context of a DSLAM that supports PTM (packet transfer mode) which eliminates that IP packet => ATM cells => IP packet conversion. PTM is part of the VDSL2 specification (however VDSL2 also supports ATM) and it needs to be supported by the DSLAM and the CPE in order to be able to use it.
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire!


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Primus Telecommu..
reply to NormanS
said by NormanS:

AT&T doesn't have a 4Mbps tier.

You're right, it's 4Mbps for Business, and 3Mbps for residential. (In Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee.)

said by NormanS:

I don't know how Sonic.net handles the 768k/1536k/3008k/6016k tiers they sell, but they track the legacy AT&T ADSL tiers.

OTOH, I am told that their "Fusion" product is on their own equipment at the CO. Sonic.net won't sell ADSL unless there is AT&T dial tone on the loop. But they provide the "Fusion" dial tone.

What do you mean by track? (usage?)

Yeah, their Fusion product uses an unbundled loop which connects to their own equipment.

said by NormanS:

AT&T isn't required to provide ADSL2+ service to CLECS. So how can they service my loop with ADSL2+, if they can't get it from AT&T?

Your loop would obviously have to be fed from a CO where they co-locate. Until AT&T file tariffs for U-Verse speeds, you won't see them anytime soon. And judging by how the ILEC here charges for their wholesale "FTTN" speeds, you're going to be looking at $90+ install fees, mandatory modem rental fees, and whatever else they can think up to keep as many wholesale customers off their new remotes.

said by NormanS:

From my old residence in western San José, AT&T legacy ADSL went from the DSLAM to a Redback (aggregation) in an AT&T POP center in Pleasanton, California.

Redback (Networks) is just the manufacturer, but yeah. Weird how a SLAM would be fed all the way to a CO in Pleasanton, but I have seen some remotes here fed to BRASs in other cities, so it does happen.


xsbell

join:2008-12-22
Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Primus Telecommu..

1 edit
reply to leibold
said by leibold:

However more frequently I see IP-DSLAM used in the context of a DSLAM that supports PTM (packet transfer mode) which eliminates that IP packet => ATM cells => IP packet conversion. PTM is part of the VDSL2 specification (however VDSL2 also supports ATM) and it needs to be supported by the DSLAM and the CPE in order to be able to use it.

It would be nice to get rid of that ATM overhead between the modem and DSLAM, but I'm guessing there are other factors as to why most ILECs stuck with ATM encapsulation.


NormanS
I gave her time to steal my mind away
Premium,MVM
join:2001-02-14
San Jose, CA
kudos:12
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
·Pacific Bell - SBC
reply to xsbell
said by xsbell:

said by NormanS:

AT&T doesn't have a 4Mbps tier.

You're right, it's 4Mbps for Business, and 3Mbps for residential. (In Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee.)

Ah; the nine-state former Bellsouth region. But my experience is with the thirteen-state former SBC region.

What do you mean by track? (usage?)

Identical tiers and service modes similar prices; legacy ADSL.

Yeah, their Fusion product uses an unbundled loop which connects to their own equipment.

said by NormanS:

AT&T isn't required to provide ADSL2+ service to CLECS. So how can they service my loop with ADSL2+, if they can't get it from AT&T?

Your loop would obviously have to be fed from a CO where they co-locate. Until AT&T file tariffs for U-Verse speeds, you won't see them anytime soon. And judging by how the ILEC here charges for their wholesale "FTTN" speeds, you're going to be looking at $90+ install fees, mandatory modem rental fees, and whatever else they can think up to keep as many wholesale customers off their new remotes.

Fusion is ADSL2+, with ATM, without PPPoE. AT&T "U-verse Internet" is ADSL2+, with PTM, and 802.1x certificate authentication. I expect they call it "IPDSLAM" to differentiate it from their traditional ADSL service (which is ATM with PPPoE); despite which difference some still think "U-verse Internet" is just re-branded ADSL.

said by NormanS:

From my old residence in western San José, AT&T legacy ADSL went from the DSLAM to a Redback (aggregation) in an AT&T POP center in Pleasanton, California.

Redback (Networks) is just the manufacturer ...

They use both Redback, and whomever else makes BRAS. I learned to distinguish between them for troubleshooting because they made the distinction in the host names.

... but yeah. Weird how a SLAM would be fed all the way to a CO in Pleasanton, but I have seen some remotes here fed to BRASs in other cities, so it does happen.

I was under the impression the CO was only 9,156 feet from the premises; that is way short of the ~26 miles between Cupertino, California (to the west of the premises) and Pleasanton, California (well to the east of the premises).

Premises in western San José, DSLAM to the west, in Cupertino, aggregation router to the east in Pleasanton.
--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum