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SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1

1 edit
reply to Mr Matt

Re: Generac GP17500E Generator

said by Mr Matt:

I was about to order a generator but due to objections of my neighbor I abandoned the project.

Your neighbor has no say over what you do on your property (assuming you own the property and don't rent it from him). Code requires propane tanks to be installed no closer than 10 feet from the boundary of your property line (in addition to 10 feet from septic, well, house, and any source of ignition).

As long as you can meet that 10' requirement with your tank... tell him to pound sand and resume your project.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
reply to stomperz71
Yeah, what objections did they raise? Based on noise, the appearance of the tanks, perceived danger? It really isn't any concern of theirs as long as you meet the requirements for your AHJ.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
reply to SwedishRider
+1


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
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Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to garys_2k
said by garys_2k:

Yeah, what objections did they raise? Based on noise, the appearance of the tanks, perceived danger? It really isn't any concern of theirs as long as you meet the requirements for your AHJ.

Wonder what the neighbor does during a power outage?


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder what the neighbor does during a power outage?

Read a book

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
said by alkizmo:

said by Jack_in_VA:

Wonder what the neighbor does during a power outage?

Read a book

By candlelight.

Sheesh, if my neighbor objected I'd try to find out why and see if there was something simple I could do (maybe plant some shrubs between him and the tanks, but that'd be about my limit) and then go ahead with it. If this is for powering must-run medical equipment then I'd tell the neighbor that, sorry, it WILL be installed.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
Excellent point, and portable gennies can be really loud and annoying at night. Maybe that was the issue, I do understand that. If that was the case then the OP should maybe use a battery operated UPS for the medical equipment at night, or get a quieter generator than a portable.

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
reply to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

In 2010 I decided to purchase a diesel generator as a result of reading this forum.

Through research I learned that standby diesel generators that were placed in service before the end of 2010 would be grandfathered but could not be moved to another location without being brought up to the new standards that went into effect in 2011 which was very costly. That ended the possibility of purchasing a used generator.

During the first quarter of 2011 I learned that the EPA required all new generators to include a non resettable usage meter calibrated in run time hours. Operators of standby generators are required to maintain an annual log keeping a record of when and for how long the generator was exercised and for how long the generator was operated to provided standby power. Failure to maintain a log would result in sanctions against the operator.

Initially the EPA limited the amount of time the generator could be exercised to 100 Hours a year but I believe that it was extended to 150 Hours a year.

A mechanic I spoke to, warned me that unless the generator was exercised under a sufficient load the engine could be damaged by bore glazing and wet stacking. He maintained a sufficient load on his own generator by transferring his residential load to the generator and then turning on appliances until the there was a sufficient load to properly exercise the generator.

At this point I decided to abandon the thought of purchasing a diesel generator.

I considered purchasing a gasoline powered generator but agree that storing 100 gallons of gasoline on my property was not a good idea. The only choice was a propane powered generator. I was about to order a generator but due to objections of my neighbor I abandoned the project.

well you really need to do research on the internet before you listen to one mechanic with invalid information. go to a truck stop at night, you'll see many diesel trucks running 8 hours mostly unloaded so the driver can sleep. go to a train yard, notice how long trains idle. also, this is for YOU, not your neighbor, who may be just jealous. WHY cave in, and be without power because of a neighbor?.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
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reply to stomperz71
Also keep in mind that for a little extra money a generator can be installed inside a garage or shed building with the exhaust and intake piped to the outside.

I believe it is also possible to have a propane tank buried, I know they still sell the brown tanks with the tall collar for burial around here in TX.
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
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join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
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Click for full size
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said by TheTechGuru:

I believe it is also possible to have a propane tank buried, I know they still sell the brown tanks with the tall collar for burial around here in TX.

Underground tanks are the preferred way to store residential propane these days. My tank is buried, but the cost of the tank is higher, and in addition to installation costs, you also have to figure in excavation costs to dig the tank hole and trench to the house. It wasn't a big deal for me as I built new and the excavator was on site... but for someone looking to add in after the fact, excavation costs need to be factored into the project.

If you are buying the tank, I certainly would recommend a 500-gallon underground tank. But if one is LEASING the tank, I would NEVER recommend an underground tank that you don't own. It makes it way too difficult to switch propane companies when you realize how badly you are getting ripped off with a leased vs owned propane tank because you can only buy from that one propane dealer that owns the tank.


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to iknow
said by iknow:

a diesel would use less fuel, and you could use #2 fuel oil instead of diesel fuel, and it MUCH safer, having 100 gallons of gasoline on your property is VERY dangerous.

One of the problems in many parts of the country with diesel and gasoline in the residential arena is environmental permitting which makes it nearly impossible to site anything other than propane or natural gas gensets.

For example here in South Florida one needs three or four environmental permits (depending on the area) to site a diesel or gasoline powered genset which is a process requiring about 6 to 9 months to process, in addition the owner of the genset must designate at least 1 person on staff (usually the environmental health and safety officer of the corporation) who must hold a certificate in spill mitigation, lacking that the owner must contract with a environmental mitigation firm such as Cliff Berry Environmental and that will run about $600 annually add to that the $250 per year county DERM fee leaving the not so happy owner of a diesel or gasoline powered genset with a reoccurring cost just south of a grand per year.

Wayne
--
Madness takes its toll, please have exact change ready…


fifty nine

join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ
kudos:2
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

I can run mine all night, no one seems to care.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

I can run mine all night, no one seems to care.

Maybe it's they don't want to confront you. People are wary now.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
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reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

I can run mine all night, no one seems to care.

Stationary generators are rather quiet, like a running car.

What's annoying is when every other house has a gas portable one running all night like we did after hurricane Ike.
--
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Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by TheTechGuru:

said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

I can run mine all night, no one seems to care.

Stationary generators are rather quiet, like a running car.

What's annoying is when every other house has a gas portable one running all night like we did after hurricane Ike.

That's exactly what I was referring to. After Isabel we used generators for 18 days. Everyone had them shut down by 11 pm. Nothing but quiet and "DARK" after 11 pm.


SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to stomperz71
Back to the original question, I have the same generator and run the whole house simply by using the 50A plug. I think you'll find that you will get everything the generator has to offer by simply using the main plug. Most likely if you actually check the current draw on your house you'll find that it is well below 50A per leg during normal use.

In my use I have 2) 2 Ton AC units and I do have to turn one off when using the generator because it just doesn't have enough output to start a second one after the first is running. Also it's a very good idea to shut down the electric water heater, when it comes on the fuel tank dries up fast!

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
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Reviews:
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SmokChsr did you ever try running both AC units with the water heater off. Generac claims that their 17 Kw propane fueled generator will support 2 (4 Ton 48,000 Btu) central air conditioners when used in conjunction with the load management feature of their nexus transfer switch. When the second AC failed to start did the engine stall or did the circuit breaker trip? I have a 2.5 ton 20 Amps running and 3.5 ton 25 Amps running AC and was considering connecting the 2.5 ton unit and some lighting loads to the 30 Amp outlet through their own transfer switch and the rest of the selected loads to the 50 Amp outlet through their own transfer switch.


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3

2 edits
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Maybe it's they don't want to confront you. People are wary now.

After Katrina and later Wilma I ran a trailer mounted generator backed into my yard 24/7 which was not totally quiet but was considerably quieter than a jobsite portable unit and none of my neighbors complained.

Now what I did without thinking twice about it was to offer and allow my three neighbors the ability to toss extension cords across my yard so they could power their refrigerators and maybe a few lights and a TV off of my generator.

Wayne
--
Madness takes its toll, please have exact change ready…


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to Jack_in_VA
said by Jack_in_VA:

Maybe it's they don't want to confront you. People are wary now.

They don't confront you, they don't know it's you, it is less loud than a lawn mower, etc etc.

My shed-sheltered-generator is nearly inaudible from 40 feet.

garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
·Callcentric
reply to fifty nine
said by fifty nine:

said by Jack_in_VA:

I think a lot of people object to generators running all night. I know around here most shut them down about 10 to 11 pm for the night. It does help the sleep situation not to have generators running everywhere.

I can run mine all night, no one seems to care.

This is about a portable generator, they're usually pretty loud.

A lot depends on the neighbors, the distances, whatever. My Generac 5 KW portable, with an auto muffler, is noisy enough to need to be shut off at 11:00. Besides, (unlike the OP, who has a medical device need for constant power) it would just be a waste of fuel to run the thing at night. Open the windows for air, the refrigerator will be fine for 12 hours and go to sleep.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
kudos:2
If one is going to have propane anyway, one could look into getting a propane/electric dual power source refrigerator. You know the propane refrigerators they use in RV's?
--
CompTIA Network+ Certified


SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

When the second AC failed to start did the engine stall or did the circuit breaker trip?

Mine are the newer "puron" scroll type units and they have a higher starting current than a older standard compressor. it would not trip a breaker or stall out, instead when the second unit tried to start the AC's control circuit would apparently sense a low voltage and trip out. So which ever one was second starting would try to kick in, for about 200ms, and then give up. Occasionally it would get started, once started it's fine. My thoughts are that the attempted starts are not a good thing, so I always just disable one unit.


TheTechGuru

join:2004-03-25
TEXAS
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Reviews:
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I wonder if there is some kind of in-line capacitor you could get, you know that work on the same concept as capacitors for automotive subwoofers?

Or maybe the existing capacitors in the a/c's could be replaced with bigger ones?

--
CompTIA Network+ Certified

Mr Matt

join:2008-01-29
Eustis, FL
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Reviews:
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·CenturyLink

1 edit
reply to SwedishRider
Channel One was there any exception for a genset with an integrated fuel tank related to the number of permits required.

During the last quarter of 2010 I contacted the building department about installing a diesel generator at my home. A building inspector stated that as long as the generator had a integrated fuel than and the slab it rested extended beyond the base tank by a specified number of inches there would be no issue getting a permit. Would you know if the exception cited for generators with integrated fuel tanks applies to all installations or does it depend on the city where the generator is being installed

With respect to iknow's comment regarding idling diesel engines you and the mechanic are both correct. I found the follow articles regarding the issues brought up by the mechanic regarding to operating a diesel engine with insufficient loading:

»en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_generator (See engine damage)

and

»coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pa···ing.aspx

Engines used in traction applications will frequently be operated at close to full load capacity when the vehicle is accelerating burning off any carbon build up.

Regarding the controversy with my neighbor regarding the installation of a generator, it occurred during the last quarter of 2010. By the second quarter of 2011 he abandoned his home. His house was so far under water that he installed a weather vane on it with a fish on it. I did not force the issue because I decided to look for a single story home in a subdivision that had natural gas available. Unfortunately that did not work out so I am still in the same house.

Here are some interesting documents regarding the rules related to locating propane tanks:

»www.propane101.com/propanetankdi···ules.htm

»www.propane101.com/images/propan···nces.gif

Edit: The most important fact that I learned from the above article was that two 120 Gallon propane tanks have about the same capacity as one 250 gallon tank but can be located directly next to a structure. Any tank over 100 gallons must be located at least 10 feet from a structure.


SwedishRider
Rider on the Storm
Premium
join:2006-01-11
not Sweden
kudos:1
said by Mr Matt:

Regarding the controversy with my neighbor regarding the installation of a generator, it occurred during the last quarter of 2010. By the second quarter of 2011 he abandoned his home. His house was so far under water that he installed a weather vane on it with a fish on it. I did not force the issue because I decided to look for a single story home in a subdivision that had natural gas available. Unfortunately that did not work out so I am still in the same house.

Here are some interesting documents regarding the rules related to locating propane tanks:

»www.propane101.com/propanetankdi···ules.htm

»www.propane101.com/images/propan···nces.gif

Edit: The most important fact that I learned from the above article was that two 120 Gallon propane tanks have about the same capacity as one 250 gallon tank but can be located directly next to a structure. Any tank over 100 gallons must be located at least 10 feet from a structure.

I don't think you understand propane pricing vs tank ownership vs tank sizing. In a nutshell, if your plan was to lease those 120 gallon tanks, you are going to get HAMMERED on propane pricing, as you'll potentially pay a leasing cost PER TANK that is assessed PER GALLON, which will drive the price up substantially. The key to getting a good price on propane is to OWN YOUR TANK and buy as big as you can afford. My last fillup price was $1.61/gal for my propane. Why? Because propane prices have collapsed AND I own my 500 gallon buried tank. Folks who lease their tanks pay higher, folks with smaller tanks pay substantially higher.... it's just the way it works.

You seem reluctant to go the way of a larger tank, but you are shooting yourself in the foot on pricing by doing so. If you go the route of the big tank, you can supply propane to other appliances down the road as you choose to expand your system (or not, your choice). I run furnace, tankless hot water heater, oven, dryer, BBQ grill and portable generator off my propane system. A propane tank can hold 80% of capacity, so my 500 gallon tank can house 400 gallons of propane at any time.

Get out your tape measure and see if you can find an appropriate location that meets the 10' distances rule I posted, and then look at your house and find a spot that a secondary regulator could be attached to enter your home. That secondary regulator on your house needs to be basically 5' from anything (check out specifics here: »Second Stage Propane Regulator Vent Distances)

I'm not sure why you gave your neighbor so much authority over your property, but he's gone and it's your house. It's your choice at this point. First take your measurements and make a plan... then take it from there..

Aranarth

join:2011-11-04
Stanwood, MI
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to stomperz71
I believe insurance rates are lower for a buried tank as well. If it blows the shockwave goes up not out. Makes for a deep crater but your house will still be there.

I have also thought about getting a 17.5kw Generac.

I have a 500gal propane tank that runs a tankless hot water, dryer, and stove. But my heating is open loop geothermal run off of a 4" 60ft well which also supplies water to the house. Getting the heating or cooling started takes a huge amount of startup surge current. I would probably need to go to the next size larger would not be as efficient to handle the startup current of the geothermal and well starting at the same time.

The geothermal can be switched to emergency propane heat but I don't know if it will do it automatically without user intervention.

This being Michigan I can guarantee at least 2 days a year when we loose power either because of a heat wave, tree down, or cold snap.
Luckily we rarely get tornadoes, eathquakes, or massive forest fires. (Yep michigan is a boring place to live. )


49528867
Premium
join:2010-04-16
Fort Lauderdale, FL
kudos:3
reply to Mr Matt
said by Mr Matt:

Channel One was there any exception for a genset with an integrated fuel tank related to the number of permits required.

What is required here is a double walled fuel tank consisting of a an inner tank which contains the fuel and an outer tank which must be capable of containing any leak of the inner tank, the only exception to a double walled tank is to use a single wall tank and place it with a retention pit capable of containing twice the capacity of the fuel tank and equipped with a sump pump that is connected through a hydrocarbon detector which will ensure the sump pump will cease operation if fuel is detected within the pit.

Around here it is common to find diesel gensets where the generator is mounted atop of the fuel tank.

Wayne
--
Madness takes its toll, please have exact change ready…


leibold
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Sunnyvale, CA
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reply to TheTechGuru
said by TheTechGuru:

I wonder if there is some kind of in-line capacitor you could get, you know that work on the same concept as capacitors for automotive subwoofers?

Capacitors work great for DC applications where they store electric energy and release it on demand. That doesn't work for AC due to the constantly changing voltage.

An equivalent device for AC is the ferroresonant transformer (or CVT constant voltage transformer) that could be used in this situation but it is not a perfect fit for motor start applications. Because the transformer (which is run fully saturated to store energy in form of magnetic fields) needs to be sized for the maximum inrush current it will have to be very large (=heavy and expensive) with the downside that it will be poorly loaded (=inefficient with high heat loss) when the motor is running (and even when the motor is off).
I have some ferroresonant transformers at work (server room) where they are designed to maintain output power (glitch free) while switching from one 3 phase power bus to the other. They work well with electronic loads.
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iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
reply to 49528867
said by 49528867:

said by iknow:

a diesel would use less fuel, and you could use #2 fuel oil instead of diesel fuel, and it MUCH safer, having 100 gallons of gasoline on your property is VERY dangerous.

One of the problems in many parts of the country with diesel and gasoline in the residential arena is environmental permitting which makes it nearly impossible to site anything other than propane or natural gas gensets.

For example here in South Florida one needs three or four environmental permits (depending on the area) to site a diesel or gasoline powered genset which is a process requiring about 6 to 9 months to process, in addition the owner of the genset must designate at least 1 person on staff (usually the environmental health and safety officer of the corporation) who must hold a certificate in spill mitigation, lacking that the owner must contract with a environmental mitigation firm such as Cliff Berry Environmental and that will run about $600 annually add to that the $250 per year county DERM fee leaving the not so happy owner of a diesel or gasoline powered genset with a reoccurring cost just south of a grand per year.

Wayne

do they require that for lawnmowers, cars, and trucks too, if not then they are clearly targeting something that is only used in emergencies, and for a short time, for nothing at all, and they should know better!. you must be talking about commercial applications, as not many home owners have staff, and especially not "environmental health and safety officer of the corporation". at their house. there are some rich people in florida that may have that, but most people there struggle to make a living, because of the economy in florida, which has always been a problem, being centered on tourism.