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Gone
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join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to urbanriot

Re: [Serious] Scarborough block party turns violent

If anyone can explain to me what bullshit like this accomplishes, I'm all hears.



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to Ian

said by Ian:

That said, serious crime in the US, where there are tough mandatory minimum sentencing laws is at a 48 year low.

A citation would be nice.


Ian
Premium
join:2002-06-18
ON
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said by Gone:

said by Ian:

That said, serious crime in the US, where there are tough mandatory minimum sentencing laws is at a 48 year low.

A citation would be nice.

Google is your friend. But here's "A" source.

»www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/au···plunging

"America's serious crime rate is plunging, but why?"

"Police investigate a crime scene in Washington DC. Serious crime across America has fallen to a 48-year low."

"One of the most widely accepted explanations is also one of the most politically and socially sensitive – that the imposition of sharply stiffer prison sentences since the early 1980s, which has resulted in the US having the highest rate of incarceration in the developed world, has kept large numbers of criminals off the streets." But as I said, impossible to really "know" why things are the way that they are.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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Well, crime is also down significantly in Canada over the same period without the same sentencing policy, so you're right - we'll never know for sure.

Still, when one looks at the cost vs. benefit of such policies, are they worth the money? It is worth putting yourself into debt for limited reductions in crime? I suppose that depends on who you ask, but it certainly isn't a very fiscally conservative way of looking at things.



Ian
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join:2002-06-18
ON
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said by Gone:

Still, when one looks at the cost vs. benefit of such policies, are they worth the money? It is worth putting yourself into debt for limited reductions in crime? I suppose that depends on who you ask, but it certainly isn't a very fiscally conservative way of looking at things.

Well? Do you want violent crime like Scarborough shootings to drop more, or not? I just think that things that actually might work, such as putting violent thugs behind bars, away from society, might actually help; whereas further restricting lawful handguns.....likely won't.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong

IamGimli

join:2004-02-28
Canada
kudos:2
reply to digitalfutur

said by digitalfutur:

Hopefully someone higher up than whoever sent the email will reverse this knee-jerk decision. If some posters here had their way though, it'd all be banned anyway. All guns = bad.

quote:
Toronto disinvites elite youth target shooters from city sports event.
»fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201···s-event/

This is despicable, yet not surprising. The Politically Correct crowd has always supported meaningless smoke and mirrors rather than real solutions.

That's just like the Thames Valley District School Board forbidding one of it's schools from accepting a $5,000 donation to go towards student activities because it came from the East Elgin Sportmen's Association and was collected during a provincial shooting competition sanctioned by the International Practical Shooting Confederation (IPSC).

»www.ofah.org/news/Students-pawns···politics


urbanriot
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

If anyone can explain to me what bullshit like this accomplishes, I'm all hears.

It's a reminder of the overzealous political correctness decade of the 90's, when everyone was oversensitive, men were encouraged to embrace their inner femininity, people used terms like "metrosexual" and anything that could affect the sensitivities of an oversensitive person with too much time that isn't even remotely connected to a non-offensive issue was disrupted.


El Quintron
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reply to Ian

said by Ian:

"One of the most widely accepted explanations is also one of the most politically and socially sensitive – that the imposition of sharply stiffer prison sentences since the early 1980s, which has resulted in the US having the highest rate of incarceration in the developed world, has kept large numbers of criminals off the streets." But as I said, impossible to really "know" why things are the way that they are.

Although slightly OT there is a competing theory here:

»pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/···2001.pdf

quote:
Far more interesting from our perspective is the possibility
that abortion has a disproportionate effect on the births of those
who are most at risk of engaging in criminal behavior. To the
extent that abortion is more frequent among those parents who
are least willing or able to provide a nurturing home environment,
as a large and growing body of evidence suggests, the
impact of legalized abortion on crimemight be far greater than its
effect on fertility rates.

I'm *not* bringing this up to discuss abortion, but I am offering a counter point to "stiffer sentences are the only way to reduce crime".
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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1 edit
reply to Ian

said by Ian:

Well? Do you want violent crime like Scarborough shootings to drop more, or not? I just think that things that actually might work, such as putting violent thugs behind bars, away from society, might actually help; whereas further restricting lawful handguns.....likely won't.

1) I have never disagreed that further restricting handguns would be a futile and useless way of trying to solve violent crime. Quite the opposite in fact, and I'm on the record saying such many times over.
2) There is no tangible proof, as you already outlined, that mandatory minimum sentences are directly responsible for the reduction in violent crime that the United States has experience over the last few decades. Considering that Canada has also experienced a similar declined without the implementation of such policies until very recently, that calls into question whether they had any impact at all.
3) If there was a reduction, how much of a reduction would you consider acceptable for the cost to be worthwhile? A 50% drop? 10% drop? 1%? Furthermore, if the cost is high (as incarceration always is), are you willing to accept a potentially significant fiscal impact (e.g. higher taxes) to pay for these sentencing policies?

As I said earlier, mandatory minimum sentences are not a fiscally conservative way of dealing with the problem. Quite the opposite, in fact. It's throwing money at a problem when there are better approaches that cost far less money.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

It's a reminder of the overzealous political correctness decade of the 90's, when everyone was oversensitive, men were encouraged to embrace their inner femininity, people used terms like "metrosexual" and anything that could affect the sensitivities of an oversensitive person with too much time that isn't even remotely connected to a non-offensive issue was disrupted.

It goes even beyond that. I mean for christ's sake, did these people not stop to consider that they are banning a positive use for firearms? As in, people not going around shooting each other and being responsible in their firearm usage? What are they trying to prove?

It's so retarded that I can't even properly put into words how frustrated shit like that makes me.


Ian
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ON
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reply to Gone

said by Gone:

As I said earlier, mandatory minimum sentences is not a fiscally conservative way of dealing with the problem. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Well...we're opening up a really complex set of issues. Yes, it's expensive to incarcerate someone. But does it really need to be as expensive as it is? One of the reasons why it is so expensive is the stranglehold powerful unions have on the industry. We're paying prison workers FAR more than similar jobs in the private sector.

And how many more will be incarcerated, exactly? Nobody knows. But suppose I'm some gang-banger in Scarborough. If I know that if I'm caught with an illegal weapon at a party I will be sent to prison for a minimum of 10 years, rather than the current plea-bargained slap on the wrist, am I more, or less, likely to leave it at home? Hmm? I suppose the exceptionally stupid won't take that into account, but most would.

And maybe, with tough sentencing laws, Jamaican gangs and such will look elsewhere to expand operations.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by Ian:

Well...we're opening up a really complex set of issues. Yes, it's expensive to incarcerate someone. But does it really need to be as expensive as it is? One of the reasons why it is so expensive is the stranglehold powerful unions have on the industry. We're paying prison workers FAR more than similar jobs in the private sector.

I will assume that you also believe police officers are overpaid, since they're paid far more than similar jobs in the private sector but serve a similar role in society as correction officers do, right? Is it your contention that we should turn prisons into a profit industry like in the United States? Perhaps we should also outsource law enforcement to private entities that pay employees $16/hour too?

said by Ian:

And how many more will be incarcerated, exactly? Nobody knows.

We already have the American example that we can look at, with the highest incarceration rate in the western world and, indeed, one of the highest in the entire world - period. So, indeed, we already have a pretty good idea of what it would be like if we went gung-ho with it the same way the Americans have done.

said by Ian:

And maybe, with tough sentencing laws, Jamaican gangs and such will look elsewhere to expand operations.

Considering that violent crime is still far worse in American cities than Canadian ones, and that they have much harsher sentencing than we do here, I'd say that you didn't think that comment through.


Ian
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ON
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said by Gone:

I will assume that you also believe police officers are overpaid, since they're paid far more than similar jobs in the private sector but serve a similar role in society as correction officers do, right? Is it your contention that we should turn prisons into a profit industry like in the United States? Perhaps we should also outsource law enforcement to private entities that pay employees $16/hour too?

You seem to believe that I'm advocating extreme measures. I'm not. And yes, cops are wildly overpaid. Beat-cop constables with a high-school education in my city can (and do) pull in over $100K a year with a little overtime (which they pad to no end). But being more aggressive with prison unions and outsourcing certain activities would be at least a good start to contain costs.
said by Gone:

We already have the American example that we can look at,

Canada is not the United States.

said by Gone:

Considering that violent crime is still far worse in American cities than Canadian ones, and that they have much harsher sentencing than we do here, I'd say that you didn't think that comment through.

Not sure how it is in Fort Erie, but Jamaican gang crime is a huge problem in the GTA. American cities each have their own issues. And we could (and should) be helping to solve our unique problems with deportation and immigration solutions as well.
--
“Any claim that the root of a problem is simple should be treated the same as a claim that the root of a problem is Bigfoot. Simplicity and Bigfoot are found in the real world with about the same frequency.” – David Wong


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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said by Ian:

You seem to believe that I'm advocating extreme measures. I'm not. And yes, cops are wildly overpaid. Beat-cop constables with a high-school education in my city can (and do) pull in over $100K a year with a little overtime (which they pad to no end). But being more aggressive with prison unions and outsourcing certain activities would be at least a good start to contain costs.

Fair enough, I'll concede these points. Just remember that a well-paid police force is typically not a corrupt police force. One only need look at the Southern US and Mexico to see what happens when you pay someone in a position of authority what amounts to peanuts. The same applies to correction officers.

said by Gone:

Canada is not the United States.

Right, we aren't, which is why I have a hard time wrapping my head around someone advocating what has always been an American solution with what are issues unique to Canada. Furthermore our crime rate has never been anywhere near the US and have continued to drop at the same pace as the Americans even without us implementing mandatory minimum sentences like they did, so I still fail to see how there can be any benefit at all, particularly when one realizes just how much it would cost to implement it in any sort of serious way.

said by Gone:

Not sure how it is in Fort Erie, but Jamaican gang crime is a huge problem in the GTA. American cities each have their own issues. And we could (and should) be helping to solve our unique problems with deportation and immigration solutions as well.

Toronto does not have a "huge" crime problem of any sort. It still has the lowest crime rates of any major city in North America, and on a per-capita basis it was still far worse back in the 70s (just like it was in American cities) than it is today.

What you're doing is advocating an American "solution" (and one that they are re-thinking) and the associated costs for something that is nowhere near the levels of the American problem on one hand, while crying "we aren't Americans" on the other and then expecting to be able to have it both ways. Furthermore, while I don't necessarily agree with IamGimli's assertion that mandatory minimums would work in Canada despite assertions that the quality of programs offered to inmates in our federal prisons would lead to better rehabilitation, your comments about cuts don't give me a lot of faith that you would keep such programs intact. Ultimately, demanding mandatory minimum sentences and then complaining about the costs of unionized correctional workers would lead any reasonable person to believe that you are advocating an exact replica of harsh American sentences combined with as-cheap-as-possible incarceration that offers little to rehabilitate inmates once they are they. There's no proof that this kind of setup worked there, and there's certainly nothing to instill confidence in me that something like that would work here.


urbanriot
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said by Gone:

said by Gone:

Stop debating with yourself


DKS
Damn Kidney Stones
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Owen Sound, ON
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reply to Ian

said by Ian:

And yes, cops are wildly overpaid. Beat-cop constables with a high-school education in my city can (and do) pull in over $100K a year with a little overtime (which they pad to no end).

There are few high school educated police officers these days. To be hired as a police officer in Ontario requires at the very least a diploma in Police Foundations (2 year) and many have 3 year university degrees. Those with high school education now would have years of experience, perhaps meriting a higher salary.
--
Need-based health care not greed-based health care.


Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Stop debating with yourself

Haha.


Gone
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reply to DKS

said by DKS:

There are few high school educated police officers these days. To be hired as a police officer in Ontario requires at the very least a diploma in Police Foundations (2 year) and many have 3 year university degrees.

The NRPS specifically shy against candidates who have taken any sort of college-level police prep course, as it causes them to have to re-teach a recruit everything all over again in the way that the NRPS prefers. This is right from the mouth of the recruiter, and I believe him when he says it. They value community service above anything else. If you can demonstrate long-standing volunteer activity in the community, they'll hire you with just an OSSD before they will anyone else who lacks that.


vue666
I love Lanny Barbie
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Halifax, NS
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reply to Kardinal

said by Kardinal:
Does "feel good, stopgap measure" include mandatory minimum sentences as part of a 'tough on crime' stance? After all, that's just a feel good for the a very specific group of voters and has been shown to have no effect on reducing crime or drug use.

Don't you think Ian, Gone and others are already discussing mandatory sentencing to death and now you want to drag me into the foray?

However if you insist on a reply, I would say my opinion is quite close to Ian's on the matter...


Kardinal
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said by vue666:


Don't you think Ian, Gone and others are already discussing mandatory sentencing to death and now you want to drag me into the foray?

However if you insist on a reply, I would say my opinion is quite close to Ian's on the matter...

It was my question to you that started the "foray", not dragged you into it, and you waited until others had answered to then simply point and say "yeah, what he said".

Ian See Profile pointed to an article that stated that crime is at a 48 year low in the US where mandatory minimum sentences exist, but at the same time it's been on a similar decline in Canada where we don't. There is thinking that it might work, but here is also equal thinking that it doesn't so the jury is still out on that one.

If you think that study on the reasons behind crime and drugs is the solution, and I happen to think that the sociological/psychological reasons behind them are key reasons too, what do you propose be done with the results of said studies. I put forward that the costs of implementing proposed solutions would large and would be social-program based like many other things that work with the usually-economically-depressed population in the country that tend to be those who commit crimes and do drugs (there are exceptions, to be sure, but as an overall blanket statement I think I'm correct).

Would you want the government to become involved in spending money on things like this, instead of building prisons, if the studies showed they would be more effective? And what would the burden of proof be to show that the info is correct instead of a "knee-jerk lib-left bleeding heart" reaction?
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All of us do time in the gutter, dreamers turn to look at the cars

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vue666
I love Lanny Barbie
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Halifax, NS
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It's a very complex issue. To resolve the problem long term we need to identify why people are involved in crime, why they desire drugs and guns. So YES social programs would help to fix this long term once the desire is identified.. I believe it would help to prevent people from becoming involved in these activities in the future..

However we also need a short fix. To stop the crime that is happening right now. To make the community safer...So YES getting these thugs off of the streets would make society safer NOW, I would agree locking them up is part of the solution, albeit a short term solution...

So there are no simple answers to this problem. However the fix would involve not one solution but many...

however making life more difficult for law abiding people is NOT part of the solution at least IMHO....

Cheers



dirtyjeffer
Anons on ignore, but not due to fear.
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London, ON
reply to WNGFAN 1

meh, crime is at its lowest rate in 40 years...why bother doing anything...shootings like this just aren't worth the money to spend on prisons and keeping thugs in jail...obviously the status quo is working just fine.

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201···?cmp=rss



vue666
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said by dirtyjeffer:

meh, crime is at its lowest rate in 40 years...why bother doing anything...shootings like this just aren't worth the money to spend on prisons and keeping thugs in jail...obviously the status quo is working just fine.

»www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/201···?cmp=rss

Crime maybe down but homicide is up...

From your link...

quote:
But while the number of some offences such as attempted murders, assaults and break-ins were down from 2010, there was an increase in other serious crimes in 2011, including:

Homicide (seven per cent increase).
Criminal harassment (one per cent increase).
Sexual violations against children (three per cent increase).
Child pornography (40 per cent increase).
Impaired driving (two per cent increase).
According to the CCJS, the increase in the national homicide rate was driven by murders in Alberta and Quebec last year.




Gone
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One needs to look at the total number of attempted murders and actual murders combined versus previous years to get a more realistic indication of an increase or decrease in these types of crimes. Both of these crimes are related, and if one goes up while the other goes down all that does it indicate that people are more efficient at reaching their goal, not that the number of people who want to kill other people is going up. One should also keep in mind that the increase in murder was specific to Alberta and Quebec as well, not Ontario or Nova Scotia.

As for the child pornography numbers, that has more to do with efficiency in police work more than anything else. Canada is a world leader in tracking down child exploitation in the Internet. Other countries - including the US - come to us to track down people. No surprise with that number at all.



dirtyjeffer
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reply to WNGFAN 1

interesting comment article in the paper today...aligns quite well with my opinions on the "societal change" that started a few decades ago and i think is responsible for part of the mess we are dealing with today.

»www.lfpress.com/comment/2012/07/···116.html



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4

Sports programs are a *huge* benefit to the community and are an excellent way of keeping at-risk youth out of trouble for a whole slew of reasons - teamwork, having something to do, working for a cause greater than oneself, etc. The article is bang on. Even the non-competitive systems that they're setting up for younger kids now is a great way to keep them out of trouble and give them the foundation for staying out of trouble.



urbanriot
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Agreed. A lot of young men need a positive male role model which they may not be getting at home.



vue666
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Halifax, NS
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Great find DJ... and bang on... this is a very complex issue and simple stop gap, feel good fixes are not addressing the bigger problems in our society...



Gone
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Fort Erie, ON
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reply to urbanriot

said by urbanriot:

Agreed. A lot of young men need a positive male role model which they may not be getting at home.

I don't think people truly grasp the benefits Toronto and other cities around the country would have saw had even a fraction of the money that had been wasted on something like the long gun registry had been invested into after school sports programs. I just shake my head when I think about it, because so much benefit had been thrown down the toilet while we were paying for such a useless program.


vue666
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Exactly the long gun registry was one of those stop gap, feel good reactions to a singular (albiet very tragic) event that did not address the root cause...