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HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to InvalidError

Re: Has DSL pair bonding arrived at Bell?

said by InvalidError:

said by HiVolt:

My guess is that while the hardware may support it, Bell *probably* doesn't have the bonding part supported in firmware, and it may require back end support too in the ERX's, sort of like TekSavvy's MLPPP.

VDSL2 pair bonding is done at the MAC layer directly between the DSLAM which must be feeding both lines and the modem, the rest of the network does not need to know anything about it.

Thats nice... I wonder if the old Stinger p0s support it, or only the newer Alcatel 7330's.
--
GO BLUE JAYS!



XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
reply to weaslenes
Thanks for chiming in. That's interesting information.
The ExpertTech guys who were doing network conditioning in my neighbourhood in April told me they were removing bridge taps, replacing some wires and isolating some sectors to improve signal quality. That fits with what you're saying.

However, not long ago (but long after the Bell trucks were gone and done with the conditioning), I switched my Fibe 16 to Fibe 15/10 and had the tech try to get me on VDSL2 with the Sagemcom. He couldn't get any sync even at the lower VDSL2 profiles and it seems like he really did all he could. He also confirmed with the test center that I was connected on a VDSL2 port too. That's what confuses me. :\


Glen1
These Are The Good Ol' Days.
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
reply to weaslenes
I would say that the gauge of the cable would have something to do with the attainable speed also...26 gauge is poor while something better might help with greater distance.
--
My Canada includes Quebec.
Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies.


Martin
Premium
join:2005-05-05
@bell.ca
kudos:3
reply to XanderLo
Comme je t'ai déjà expliqué, tu auras accès à Fibe25/Télé Fibe sur cuivre, ils condionnent les paires de cuivre afin que tu puisse y avoir accès dans un avenir rapproché...


XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
said by Martin:

Comme je t'ai déjà expliqué, tu auras accès à Fibe25/Télé Fibe sur cuivre, ils condionnent les paires de cuivre afin que tu puisse y avoir accès dans un avenir rapproché...

Ouais mais le conditionnement est terminé et le tech n'a pas été capable de me syncher en VDSL2, même avec les profiles upstream les plus bas. C'est pour ça que je me demandais s'ils allaient faire du bonding (surtout qu'un gars d'ExpertTech m'avait dit qu'il devrait faire du bonding pour chez nous).


weaslenes

join:2002-12-05
reply to Glen1
said by Glen1:

I would say that the gauge of the cable would have something to do with the attainable speed also...26 gauge is poor while something better might help with greater distance.

Oh yes I fully agree, especially if there are many cable gauge changes throughout the loop makeup, they are sometimes the worst loops to try and get VDSL2 work good on. I think a lot of the distribution cable I work with is 24 or 22 gauge, which can make a huge difference.

Paul in SF

join:2010-09-11
San Francisco, CA
kudos:1
reply to ChuckcZar

removed by poster

Sorry


ChuckcZar

@teksavvy.com
It's a little different up here in Canada where the prices are a complete joke. Add in the cost of pair bonding and only people with 7 figure incomes will be in this category. The technology is only cost effective if people sign up for it. If it costs too much no one will subscribe to it.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
said by ChuckcZar :

If it costs too much no one will subscribe to it.

High prices are not stopping people from signing up for wireless data plans. The latest OECD report says wireless broadband and data services take-up rates are growing 10X faster than wired, 16%/year vs 1.5%/year across all markets, not only those with cheaper wireless services.


BliZZardX
Premium
join:2002-08-18
Toronto, ON
reply to XanderLo

Re: Has DSL pair bonding arrived at Bell?

Sagemcom has a Fusiv Vx180 with FxS-5 chipset (I opened it and posted pics last month). Just look at Ikanos website, these do not support bonding. And the Stinger CO/remote line cards need to be upgraded. The SmartLeap 94xx CO chips from 7 years ago definitely do not support bonding. Only the Vx185 with Accelity 2 chipset released this year do.

As for the ALU Broadcom VDSL.. don't know, never looked at that because I'm not on that type of remote.

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
reply to XanderLo
There are 2 issues that say that Bell will support pair bonding.

Issue one is that there are less and less customers using Bell wire pairs. This address at one time had 4 or 5 landlines and now has one. Our grandkids have moved in to attend McMaster University and the chances that they will ever get a landline are slim to none.

Issue two is that as Bell upgrades to FTTH on a city by city basis, there are going to be thousands of pedestals removed and tens/hundreds of thousands of line cards removed.

The equipment will fall into a few categories.
1. Oldest generation equipment - scrap all or save a few – the oldest equipment is scrap; same some for maintenance.
2. Next generation equipment - sort and scrap oldest versions – Keep the newest versions for servicing.
3. Current generation equipment - sort and modify to latest hardware version and upgrade firmware.
4. Current generation equipment - sort, upgrade firmware and retest (hardware up-to-date).

If the newest equipment is the Alcatel 7330, the removed equipment could be used for spare parts; used to replace older FTTN equipment or be used (when refurbished) as a new install in areas that do not have FTTN.

With the quantities of hardware Bell will be removing (along with others in North America), and the chances of reselling the equipment at zero and with spare cable pairs increasing in most neighbourhoods; pair bonding may be one of the smartest decisions that Bell has made or will make.

My address is still wired to the office at about 1.6 km (by road) and 400 metres from our cross connect box.

When Bell had an Internet service of 7Mbits and with a Siemens SpeedStream 6520, the modem reported an allowable speed of between 8.5Mbits & 9Mbits.

Bell has since cut the speed to 6Mbits and when (if) we renew when the contract which expires in October the speed will be cut to 5Mbits.

With Pair bonding, (whether FTTN or wired back to the CO), Bell could prevent the loss of many customers to other providers including me.

Rick

Mont

join:2006-05-02
Saint-Leonard, QC
reply to XanderLo
Pair bonding is in test so if you should get it won't be until the tests are finished.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to RickStep
said by RickStep:

With Pair bonding, (whether FTTN or wired back to the CO), Bell could prevent the loss of many customers to other providers including me.

Except bonding almost doubles Bell's costs for providing service so retaining low-value subscribers via pair bonding may translate into a net loss, leaving Bell better off without those subscribers.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
said by InvalidError:

said by RickStep:

With Pair bonding, (whether FTTN or wired back to the CO), Bell could prevent the loss of many customers to other providers including me.

Except bonding almost doubles Bell's costs for providing service so retaining low-value subscribers via pair bonding may translate into a net loss, leaving Bell better off without those subscribers.

The "low value" is Bell's fault. Pair bonding is a means of allowing a much higher value customer.

RickStep
Premium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1

2 edits
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

Except bonding almost doubles Bell's costs for providing service so retaining low-value subscribers via pair bonding may translate into a net loss, leaving Bell better off without those subscribers.

Why exactly do you think that it would double Bell's cost?

When Bell's revenue goes to zero because of poor planning and stupidity and unused cable pairs increase which is happening in this neighbourhood; any revenue is a plus not double. The use of 2 line cards and 2 cable pairs does NOT cost Bell double. I keep getting two offers from Bell.
1. Get TV over the Internet - OPPS that was a mistake - get a great deal on satellite TV.
2. Get a second phone line for $9.95. So much for no spare pairs.

Something has been missed here and you pointed out the problem.

I am a low value customer that was created by Bell. We didn't want to be or need to be a low value customer; but when Bell caps your service prematurely; the only other options are the competition.

Most of the north side of our street have Internet with Cogeco. The south side has Fibe 25/10 and Fibe whatever with TV.

The problem is this:

1. Internet customers look at speed vs. bandwidth and take what they see as the best value whether they need it or not; or whether what is being sold to them is real.
2. The internet speed here currently is 6Mbits wired back to the CO and does the following:
2a Allows my wife to watch 4 simultaneous feeds from Big Brother.
2b And allows me to download gigabytes from Microsoft at the same time with only the very odd hiccup in the video stream.

The issue as we go forward is to future proof against a 12 month contract that may shoot us in the foot due to the increase in resolution in streaming video and a contract for a better price that is an albatross around our neck.

Our side of the street and all those customers including a new condo development in an old school (where our local councillor lives) are using Cogeco Internet because Bell has abandoned this old neighbourhood and now classes us as low paying customers.

Bell Canada has its collective head up its ass. Bell has created all of the issues that are chasing customers away. Bell; however; continues to paint us as abandoning Bell but gives us few options.

Please explain this!

The longest run of cable in the area is about 1.7km from the CO. 1.2km to the cross box and 500 metres to the end. The 6520 reported a usable speed of 8.5 - 9 Mbits at my location of 1.6km from the CO.

While Bell should be able to offer 5 Fibe packages (which it does on the south side of our street for its Fibe service; Bells solution for us has been to degrade the only package available here from 7/unlimited to 6/unlimited to 6/65 to 6/15 and soon to 5/15.

The old line cards that are still in Bells CO could set my speed at 9Mbits and Bell could charge the fee for the service up to 15/10. With pair bonding, which can take place solely with the router my address could get between 15 - 20Mbits. There are routers in the market place today that will integrate 2 Internet services into one. Again the cost to Bell Canada is not close to double when the service is heading to zero revenue.

Exactly what am I missing?

Rick

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
reply to XanderLo
Not sure on pair bonding as an issue but its possible They are Reconditioning the plant as you said that By august 23rd they will have shortened the loop to your Home by enough to make it functional distance wise. is my best guess/
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to RickStep
said by RickStep:

said by InvalidError:

Except bonding almost doubles Bell's costs for providing service so retaining low-value subscribers via pair bonding may translate into a net loss, leaving Bell better off without those subscribers.

Why exactly do you think that it would double Bell's cost?

Bonding uses twice as many DSLAM ports which means half as much revenue out of a given investment unless bonded services carry a substantial premium.


XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
said by InvalidError:

said by RickStep:

said by InvalidError:

Except bonding almost doubles Bell's costs for providing service so retaining low-value subscribers via pair bonding may translate into a net loss, leaving Bell better off without those subscribers.

Why exactly do you think that it would double Bell's cost?

Bonding uses twice as many DSLAM ports which means half as much revenue out of a given investment unless bonded services carry a substantial premium.

That's not a valid statement if those ports are to be unused otherwise.


XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
reply to morisato
said by morisato:

Not sure on pair bonding as an issue but its possible They are Reconditioning the plant as you said that By august 23rd they will have shortened the loop to your Home by enough to make it functional distance wise. is my best guess/

That's what I keep hearing (except from the ExpertTech guys who did the reconditioning who said that bonding would be used for my house). The problem is that I'm "physically" 1.1-1.2km from the JWI so it's impossible to get the loop length below that. However, what can be done is remove bridge taps and change some wires. Bell Fibe TV page now says "coming within the next month" - read that months ago already. We'll see.

InvalidError

join:2008-02-03
kudos:5
reply to XanderLo
said by XanderLo:

That's not a valid statement if those ports are to be unused otherwise.

That is assuming there are that many ports available.

Most VDSL2 DSLAMs come in 48 ports increments so with dual-link a DSLAM would end up feeding as few as 24 subscribers. Your statement is only true if there are fewer than 24 subscribers in your neighborhood, beyond that it depends on whether or not the number of people who might be interested in dual-link is lower than the number of spare ports residing on line cards that Bell is not planning to relocate elsewhere.

If Bell has to add line cards specifically to accommodate bonding, it becomes a money sink compared to areas where the same services can be delivered over a single pair.


XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
Yes, IF it can be delivered over a single pair. In my neighbourhood, no one can have Fibe TV and the tech told me not a single VDSL2 port is taken at the JWI; only ADSL2+ ones. Talk about a waste.

kovy7

join:2009-03-26
kudos:8
said by XanderLo:

Yes, IF it can be delivered over a single pair. In my neighbourhood, no one can have Fibe TV and the tech told me not a single VDSL2 port is taken at the JWI; only ADSL2+ ones. Talk about a waste.

No really since most ports are ADSL/ADSL2+/VDSL2 compatible... it's only the mode that changes.


weaslenes

join:2002-12-05
reply to XanderLo
said by XanderLo:

said by morisato:

Not sure on pair bonding as an issue but its possible They are Reconditioning the plant as you said that By august 23rd they will have shortened the loop to your Home by enough to make it functional distance wise. is my best guess/

That's what I keep hearing (except from the ExpertTech guys who did the reconditioning who said that bonding would be used for my house). The problem is that I'm "physically" 1.1-1.2km from the JWI so it's impossible to get the loop length below that. However, what can be done is remove bridge taps and change some wires. Bell Fibe TV page now says "coming within the next month" - read that months ago already. We'll see.

I'm not sure about what the Expertech guy is saying about only ADSL2+ ports are being used, seems odd, and it seems like he is also saying that that pair bonding is going to be used. This kinda leads me to believe he may be misinformed about how the VDSL2 technology works and how the cards in the remotes are provisioned and what cards support different modes.

It may be possible for you to get Fibe TV @ 1.1 - 1.2 Km, I know I talked about the 25/7 speed going at longer distances in previous posts, the Fibe TV over VDSL2 works in much the same way as the Fibe 25 internet does, Fibe TV just needs the pair a little more fine tuned compared to the 25/7 internet.

Maybe just wait it out until Aug 23 and see if they release the Fibe TV product in your neighbuorhood.

Fibe TV is possibly doable at that distance on a 7330 xSLAM as long as the bridge taps and end taps are cleared (which Expertech is doing).

morisato

join:2008-03-16
Oshawa, ON
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
·ELECTRONICBOX
They are also Putting in alot of new remotes perhaps and 1.2 Kms is within serviceable range for 25/10 though u might not get the full upload. u will still be fine for the 25 down. which would mean fibe tv would work.
--
Every time Someone leaves Sympatico an Angel gets its wings.

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to XanderLo
I don't want to say anything too inflammatory here but to be perfectly honest with you, the vast majority of the Expertech technicians working on the plant conditioning project are brand new and probably don't know the difference between DSL pair bonding and cable sheath bonding. Most of these guys are working in crews consisting of one experienced tech who sits at the JWI all day while his newbie grunts go and hack and chop our outside plant to pieces (im not bitter i promise).

Using pair bonding to provide you with vdsl is causing my BS meter to swing way into the redzone.

FibeTV @ 19 meg can be used in cases where distance is excessive but you would have reduced Stream capacity.
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to InvalidError
said by InvalidError:

Bonding uses twice as many DSLAM ports which means half as much revenue out of a given investment unless bonded services carry a substantial premium.

They have to deal with it otherwise lose the customers.

34764170

join:2007-09-06
Etobicoke, ON
reply to ChuckcZar
said by ChuckcZar :

While it works in theory pair bonding is a pipe dream something we may never see for the next millennium or ever (vdsl and dsl related).

More like you getting a clue and not being such a douchebag is a pipe dream.


XanderLo

join:2002-06-19
Boucherville, QC
reply to urbang33k
said by urbang33k:

I don't want to say anything too inflammatory here but to be perfectly honest with you, the vast majority of the Expertech technicians working on the plant conditioning project are brand new and probably don't know the difference between DSL pair bonding and cable sheath bonding. Most of these guys are working in crews consisting of one experienced tech who sits at the JWI all day while his newbie grunts go and hack and chop our outside plant to pieces (im not bitter i promise).

Using pair bonding to provide you with vdsl is causing my BS meter to swing way into the redzone.

FibeTV @ 19 meg can be used in cases where distance is excessive but you would have reduced Stream capacity.

Thanks for your 2 cents heh. Maybe the ExpertTech guy was talking about cable sheath bonding. Is that used actively to reduce attenuation?


HiVolt
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
kudos:21
What's cable sheath bonding?

urbang33k

join:2010-02-13
Canada
kudos:1
said by HiVolt:

What's cable sheath bonding?

The F1 and F2 cables (well all main cables for that matter) are wrapped in a metallic shield under the layer of heavy black (pvc, or some other plastic material) exterior sheath.

What is supposed to happen is, when the f2 terminals are placed on the poles during construction, approx 18 inches of sheath and shield and inner plastic wrapping are cut away to expose the binders of pairs and usually 1 or 2 binders (groups of 25 pairs) are pulled out and spliced into the terminal (eg Hotdog terminals) or left exposed inside the terminal (ready access, pic terminals). Part of the terminal install process is to install a braided metal strap to 'bond' the end of the cable entering to the end of the cable leaving by provide continuity of this metal shield of the cable itself. The bonding strap is also usually grounded to the strand and serves as protection from power influence , power surge (read lightning) among other voice and dsl signal factors.

Over the years as technicians work in the terminals, or replace them entirely, the bonding straps get removed for whatever reason (usually laziness).

Expertechs conditioning project involves re-establishing those bonds of the distribution cables that have been 'broken' over the years.

The process in and of itself is referred to as 'bonding' in either a construction/repair/rehabilitation perspective.

Station technicians (read BTS) are supposed to do this on a smaller scale with new Buried service wires. The 3 pair bsw's are wrapped in a copper shield and that shield is bonded to the ground lug inside the NID on your house, as well as the 'bonding strap' at the pedestal end there by extending the 'bond' as a whole from jwi/opi right to the nid.
--
Opinions and ideas expressed in my post are my own and in no way represent those of Bell Canada Enterprises, Bell Canada, Bell TV, Bell Internet, Bell Mobility, Bell Technical Solutions, Expertech, or any other partners under the BCE umbrella.