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treichhart

join:2006-12-12
reply to totalaccess

Re: Initial investment for setting up ISP

Are you really sure taxes and permits are required? because last time I checked it really depends on the state because I know state of ohio dont require taxes on broadband unless your sell telephone services with it. What permits are you talking about?



teleadmin

@weirvalve.com
reply to jimbouse

Thanks a lot for your reply. I am doing a consultancy project and I am about to finish market feasibility study and other analysis required to setup ISP for 1,000 customer. I have even calculated some of the costs required to setup ISP. But I am bit confused with couple of costs and thought someone who is already working in the area will be able to help me. I just want to know which type and how many routers, switches, firewall is required. Also, the internet backbone cost and if there is any other things if you think I need to consider will be much appreciated.
Thanks



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

Is your cost estimate up to $80,000 yet?


OHSrob

join:2011-06-08

1 edit
reply to teleadmin

said by teleadmin :

Thanks a lot for your reply. I am doing a consultancy project and I am about to finish market feasibility study and other analysis required to setup ISP for 1,000 customer. I have even calculated some of the costs required to setup ISP. But I am bit confused with couple of costs and thought someone who is already working in the area will be able to help me. I just want to know which type and how many routers, switches, firewall is required. Also, the internet backbone cost and if there is any other things if you think I need to consider will be much appreciated.
Thanks

If you were more serious about this you would realize you can't just jump right into this and shoot for 1000 people.

You need to first find a target market without cable, adsl or a competent wisp (All of my competitors are morons that's why I started where I did), plan and budget your link's and ensure you have clear line of sight + Fresnel zone clearance to get from where there is fiber optics located at a low cost to your target rural market.

You should have this planed before your even considered hardware vendors ore equipment.

The internet is a much more utilized place then it use to be, You use to go by one subscriber per megabit but HD youtube and netflix changed that its now wildly unpredictable depending on how many netflix users you have.

Heck for routers/access concentrators you could go mikrotik, cisco, quagga on a linux distro, juniper, nortel, HP,Alcatel-Lucent, Avaya, Nokia the list just goes on. It all depends on what you understand and how much you want to spend. (and how well you want things to work especially between different vendors).

edit: To service 1000 people properly without traffic shaping the shit out of everything its going to cost you a minimum of $100,000 on parts and internet transit alone in the time it takes to build it to that point.


TomS_
Git-r-done
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-19
London, UK
kudos:5
reply to teleadmin

said by teleadmin :

Thanks a lot for your reply. I am doing a consultancy project and I am about to finish market feasibility study and other analysis required to setup ISP for 1,000 customer. I have even calculated some of the costs required to setup ISP. But I am bit confused with couple of costs and thought someone who is already working in the area will be able to help me.

Im sure plenty of people can help. And maybe I am a bit of a cynical prick here, but if this is a consultancy project, youre probably being paid to put this report together, yet youre trying to get some of it (the network aspects) without paying anyone else for the consultancy they are giving to you? How is this fair? :-P

Perhaps as a consultant, you can pay some of this money you are earning to a consultant who is more familiar with the topic you are trying to cover here, and that can come up with a couple of network designs using different vendors equipment to cover various budget scenarios, different topologies with different levels of redundancy, produce a BOM for each, etc?

I just want to know which type and how many routers, switches, firewall is required.

Cisco, Juniper, Brocade, MikroTik, and tonnes more. Take your pick. What features do you need? How much is the budget?

How many and what type isnt exactly a recipe you can just cook to, its somewhat specific to each and every network, and influenced heavily by the topology of the network. It all depends on the capabilities you want your network to have, what features you want to offer to customers, the type of technical expertise you or your customer has or can acquire to run and maintain it

Plenty of people around here have built their networks on MikroTik routers and are doing fine. I used to work for a company that built its network using Cisco equipment. Those are about the most opposite ends of the scale as you can get price wise, but both probably have some/most/all of the features that you're likely to need.

As I said above, trying to write a specification for something you understand little about is probably something you are best leaving to a professional who understands it like the back of his hand.

Also, the internet backbone cost and if there is any other things if you think I need to consider will be much appreciated.
Thanks

What is available in the area that your customer is going to service? Rural areas can be extremely bandwidth scarce, and access to any decent amount of bandwidth can alone be enough to make a project unfeasible. Your physical interface options might be limited, as in there might not be a simple ethernet jack to plug your MikroTik router into. You might have to buy a more expensive modular router that can take a T3 or maybe an OC-3.

You will have to determine the providers that are available to you in the area you are trying to service, and contact them and find out what they can offer you to work that one out.

The company I used to work for invested hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars building high capacity backhaul through our service areas, as bandwidth from any of the available providers in the area was simply too expensive to buy - too expensive as in more than the hundreds of thousands to millions that *we* spent *building* backhaul...

So maybe you need to do the same and build your own backhaul network over considerable distance to get access to cheaper bandwidth, which will likely be located closer to more major towns and cities.

There is so much that we cant tell you because as I said, this is not cookie cutter type stuff. Though as we have done, we can give you hints. You'll have to do the leg work and fill in the blanks.

rconaway8

join:2005-11-10
Phoenix, AZ

If you are building a business plan that has investors, unless you get to 1000 users paying you $40 per month, don't do it. Anything below that is a one-man hobby so to speak. That being said, the smallest business plan that I would approach investors with will require $300-$400K. That is private angel investors. In fact, I wrote an article on this dealing with single and multi-round investment models and issues.

»www.triadwireless.net/index.php?···emid=272

Growing organically with a small operation is fine but be honest with yourself. Maybe your potential market is X but lack of investment funding to grow quickly and your competitors looking for new areas which might end up being yours, means you may not have 5 years to grow slowly as capital becomes available. If you want to work with institutional investors, you better have some really good friends and a $200M business plan that needs $10M to start. And you better have something different than "I'm going to throw up a bunch of radios on a few towers" mentality.

Justin (WHT) and I have spent months analyzing a business plan with a potential of 3000+ users to try and reduce the Capex. The best we have done is about $250K to cover 500 square miles.



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

said by rconaway8:

Justin (WHT) and I have spent months analyzing a business plan with a potential of 3000+ users to try and reduce the Capex. The best we have done is about $250K to cover 500 square miles.

And that's not counting 1,000 hours spent in examining housing density per square mile (with 100 foot resolution granularity) for best placement of tower sites. That effort alone reduced the CAPEX by $100,000 to get to the $250,000 figure.

We haven't even gotten to a shopping list of equipment yet. As I have always said...an equipment list is pretty much at the bottom of your list of things to do.


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

1 edit

said by WHT:

said by rconaway8:

Justin (WHT) and I have spent months analyzing a business plan with a potential of 3000+ users to try and reduce the Capex. The best we have done is about $250K to cover 500 square miles.

And that's not counting 1,000 hours spent in examining housing density per square mile (with 100 foot resolution granularity) for best placement of tower sites. That effort alone reduced the CAPEX by $100,000 to get to the $250,000 figure.

We haven't even gotten to a shopping list of equipment yet. As I have always said...an equipment list is pretty much at the bottom of your list of things to do.

I don't know. I'm thinking that you are making it sound a lot more expensive than it has to be.

--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA
reply to rconaway8

said by rconaway8:

Justin (WHT) and I have spent months analyzing a business plan with a potential of 3000+ users to try and reduce the Capex. The best we have done is about $250K to cover 500 square miles.

That is absolute horse hockey...

A 200M business plan? Jebus..

I can cover 500 square miles for far less than $250,000.00 investment but *A START UP DOES NOT NEED TO COVER 500 SQ. MI.*
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

1 edit
reply to Telecomnet

For Gods sake, please give me a 10M start up and I will run every competitor for fifty miles out of business....

That number is just insane. There are three WISPs in our area. There are perhaps 35 thousand households lit up by those three WISPs. Now the area they cover is probably close to 2000 square miles... Just so we keep things in the same units.

Total invenstment in the three companies is maybe 8 million. They service in the aggregate about 6 thousand subs at about $30.00 per month average.

These are not start ups, these are established companies.

And you know, I'm just dumb enough to put up my own WISP in the middle of all of it because I think I can take enough share to make it work.

Don't let some know-it-all tell you it can't be done for less than 10M.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


rconaway8

join:2005-11-10
Phoenix, AZ
reply to Telecomnet

Dawg, good for you. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. You really don't know what I've done other than what I've written about. I remember a time when you kept telling me that Ubiquiti was useless and that Motorola was the only way to go. I'm still waiting for you to admit that you were wrong then and you are wrong now. Any chance that's coming pretty soon?



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

2 edits

said by rconaway8:

Dawg, good for you. Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. You really don't know what I've done other than what I've written about. I remember a time when you kept telling me that Ubiquiti was useless and that Motorola was the only way to go. I'm still waiting for you to admit that you were wrong then and you are wrong now. Any chance that's coming pretty soon?

Well, I remember a time when you told me that Ubiquiti was going to have a functioning TDMA system. Do they have it yet? Because I am also the guy that told Ubiquiti (before you were an egg) that they should copy the motorola form factor... But hey Ron, you just keep talking to yourself like that. I wasn't. I'm not.

Let me take that further for you, Ron. I am also the guy that told Cisco they should buy Linksys. Yeah, were you around for that?

Oh wait! I'm also the guy that told WISPA they had the right to develop their own CALEA standard, were you around for that?

Oh, DAMN, I am also the guy that proved that Raylink had issues with their os and caused the company to go tits up. Were you around for that?

Aw hell, I was the guy that got into pissing contests with Marlon on the ISP planet forums about why WEP was not secure and was roundly spat upon by that forums participants because they maintained WEP was more than enough security. Were you there for that Mr. Conaway?

You think I am talking crap, ask Superd... he will tell you because he has been here since that time, as have several others.

I'm just asking Rory.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."

rconaway8

join:2005-11-10
Phoenix, AZ

Please let me correct you.

1) My first name is not Ron, it's Rory.
2) I consult on projects world wide.
3) That business plan is in the midwest, not Phoenix.
4) They have a TDMA system call AirMax but I never said that actually, but way to deflect. I don't design anything with it anyway.

I really don't have any more time for this Dawg. You send me a real business plan with financial analysis someday and then we can continue this conversation. There is no value since you have no actual data to back up your inaccurate statements. You put out information that people may be basing their financial future on. Are you willing to take the responsibility if they fail? I am.



DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

said by rconaway8:

Please let me correct you.

1) My first name is not Ron, it's Rory.

My bad, Rory.

said by rconaway8:

2) I consult on projects world wide.

We all do, Rory.

said by rconaway8:

3) That business plan is in the midwest, not Phoenix.

Well damn, and you didn't even ask the OP where he was trying to build his business. Guess you don't have the WORLD WIDE thing down so well.

said by rconaway8:

4) They have a TDMA system call AirMax but I never said that actually, but way to deflect. I don't design anything with it anyway.

Yeah... Last time I checked, they still didn't have the whole TDMA thing working properly... It is only 2 years after you and Justin *PROMISED* everyone here it was going to be available in a few momths.

said by rconaway8:

I really don't have any more time for this Dawg. You send me a real business plan with financial analysis someday and then we can continue this conversation. There is no value since you have no actual data to back up your inaccurate statements. You put out information that people may be basing their financial future on. Are you willing to take the responsibility if they fail? I am.

That is more or less what I expected. If your investors want to talk to someone who has done it, they should feel free to call me. Otherwise Rory... I defer to your obvious expertise.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA
reply to Telecomnet

Completely aside to the original poster...

Forums are full of people who honestly believe they are experts in the field.

They will happily sell you a hundred thousand dollars of consultation based upon the fact that they can dominate a forum.

Be very careful, there are a lot of incompetent people in this business, as there are in any business.

A pretty face, a suit and a tie, these are not the things that constitute competence in engineering; rather these are the things that constitute competence in whoring on a half learned skill.

If you need help, you can contact any number of people on this forum via E-Mail and they can help you.

Superdog
John Galt
Rhaas
LLigetfa
wirelessdog
raytaylor
jcremin

and many others in no particular order. Just don't hook your horse to the two or three people who want to try to run this forum... because they are relative noobies and being noobies they only think they know this business.

The old hands are just too polite and patient to tell them to sit down and shut up.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."



WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

said by DaDawgs:

If you need help, you can contact any number of people on this forum via E-Mail and they can help you.

raytaylor

Who said my help in the UBNT forum was invaluable when he started up.


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

1 edit

said by WHT:

said by DaDawgs:

If you need help, you can contact any number of people on this forum via E-Mail and they can help you.

raytaylor

Who said my help in the UBNT forum was invaluable when he started up.

Geee I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. Really and truthfully? If I recall correctly, I was the guy that was trying to get you and Mr. Conaway to slow down on smoking the UBNT crack because you two were telling the world how this new UBNT crack was going to take down every Motorola system in the area, operate through trees like it was a big dog and how they were going to deliver this new TDMA system "Air Max" that was just going to kick ass.

It seems to me like I was the guy telling you two that that crap was not going to work like you were promising. So how is that "Air Max" crap working today, two years later? Justin?
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

said by DaDawgs:

Geee I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.

You misread what I said. I used "who" (as in Ray Taylor) in the declaratory, not the inquisitory sense.

said by DaDawgs:

So how is that "Air Max" crap working today, two years later? Justin?

Well...Let's see. How many people attended the Cambrian presentation compared to the UBNT presentation at WISPA last year? Also consider the airMax converts in AFMuG. Based on that, I'd say airMax is working out for lots of people.


DaDawgs
Premium
join:2010-08-02
Deltaville, VA

said by WHT:

said by DaDawgs:

Geee I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.

You misread what I said. I used "who" (as in Ray Taylor) in the declaratory, not the inquisitory sense.

said by DaDawgs:

So how is that "Air Max" crap working today, two years later? Justin?

Well...Let's see. How many people attended the Cambrian presentation compared to the UBNT presentation at WISPA last year? Also consider the airMax converts in AFMuG. Based on that, I'd say airMax is working out for lots of people.

That's good Justin, rate the product not by the actual performance but by the number of suckers you have managed to shill for the vendor. Well done.

It still is not working. It still is making excuses, just read the Ubnt forums.
--
Once we IPv6 enable every device on the Internet we will have toasters, baby monitors, and security cameras joining the bot nets which today are populated only by idiots that can not refrain from clicking, "Yes I would like to see those titties..."


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

said by DaDawgs:

It still is not working. It still is making excuses, just read the Ubnt forums.

You means the threads about the beta releases? It's BETA. The stable release appears very stable.


seagreen
Premium,Mod
join:2001-05-14
out there
reply to Telecomnet

(topic move) Initial investment for setting up ISP

Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 4 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »OT Trolling



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to Chele

Re: Initial investment for setting up ISP

HI Chele,many thanks for your help. At this point everything will help me. I understand the question is vague and sorry about the less information.I am a management student and have just started the project and still looking for information on ISP.
thanks



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to OHSrob

Thanks a lot for your suggestion. I am sure you will get success very soon. I really like the people who starts their own business.

Actually I am a management student and this project is part of my study. But I do understand technical things as I have almost 6 years of experience in telecom and networking. But I don't know what type of router, switched and servers will be required and approximately what will be the cost. I need to do a approximate calculation for startup cost. I have calculated the backbone, license cost and CPE cost. I don't have need to calculate Radio access network(RAN) cost, that I can get on lease. As you said you have your own ISP so you probably can help me. Please ask me if you need any detail.thanks



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to jim_p_price7

Thanks a lot Jim_p_prince7,

I have already done the market feasibility study and know my probable customer. At this moment I am planning three different speed options for clients, 2mbps down & 512 up, 4 down & 1 up and 8 down & 2 up. I know my competitors and have done SWOT analysis and PEST analysis.By the way I am a management student and this is a part of my study. But I understand technical things as I have worked with ISP and different telecom organisations. Hope I will get some help from professionals.
thanks



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to OHSrob

thanks once again OHSrob,

I have done market study and calculated the potential customers. I don't have to bother about the wireless network as the investors are planning to lease the Radio Access Network. I just have to calculate the ISP cost minus infrastructure cost. I guess if the investors can lease wireless network then they just have to think about the CPE cost, the ISP cost and bandwidth cost. Please help me if I am wrong.Also I will be thankful if you can help me with cost analysis for ISP.

thanks



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to TomS_

thanks a lot for your help and all the hints.they are very helpful.
By the way, I am not getting any money for this project. I am a management student and this consultancy project is part of my study.



teleadmin

@as13285.net
reply to totalaccess

Hi totalaccess, thanks for your reply. probably you got what I am looking for.
I am looking for some niche market and have found some regions where less than 10% household has got good internet. we have done some work in marketing and sales plan. I need to know the cost analysis as you know most of the investors want to know about it. I will be thankful if you can help me with start-up cost. But I don't need towers cost as we are planning to lease a wireless infrastructure. Please help me with cost analysis.thanks


public

join:2002-01-19
Santa Clara, CA

1 recommendation

reply to teleadmin

said by teleadmin :

thanks a lot for your help and all the hints.they are very helpful.
By the way, I am not getting any money for this project. I am a management student and this consultancy project is part of my study.

And the investors are getting what they pay for !!!
The wireless infrastructure is what makes a WISP a success or a failure. The management administrative overhead can be leased.


WHT

join:2010-03-26
Rosston, TX
kudos:5

1 recommendation

reply to teleadmin

said by teleadmin :

this consultancy project is part of my study.

In other words, all your questions are part of a game, not a real deployment.
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