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thegeek
Premium
join:2008-02-21
right here
kudos:2

What's the Problem?

Get rid of costly labor. Increase prices. Reduce costs. How else is a business supposed to make a profit. I just don't see the problem here. The great thing is if you don't like it you can vote with your wallet and use a competitor. And last I checked internet is not a necessity, it is only a want. If you want it bad enough then you pay the prices required to get it.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Re: What's the Problem?

Normal market forces don't really apply to broadband, where their are at most 2 or 3 options, in most cases 2 and in some places only 1.

Voting with your wallet doesn't work in this instance.

thegeek
Premium
join:2008-02-21
right here
kudos:2

Re: What's the Problem?

Yes it does. Internet is not a necessity. You either pay for it or you don't. The number of service providers doesn't matter. I can't think of a single place where there is truly only a single option for internet access. There is always the possibility of dial-up and satilite access. If you want something faster than those options then you have to be willing to pay for it. This is basic economics.

NOCTech75
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: What's the Problem?

said by thegeek:

Yes it does. Internet is not a necessity.

Bullshit, porn is a necessity and the easiest method of getting it is the internet therefore the internet is necessary.
shrraga

join:2012-07-22
You consider Dial-up and Satellite internet? Try sharing either between a family of 4. Hughesnet costs $60 a month for 250 MB per day. That is a few youtube videos, per day. Dial-up is a much better value, at least most providers don't have data limits. Sure, the most you'll download per day is in the 130 MB range, but you only pay $10 for junk.
Good Internet is a necessity for most of our country's students, because of lots of online courses, homework which requires watching streaming media, and large program downloads. Just my Legit school work internet usage is in the 15GB/ month range which would cost me $130 on verizon's wireless network that they are shafting me on since it's so cheap for them, cheap enough that they are abandoning their DSL subscribers. Add in the 7 extra GB I use for my own stuff (hulu, netflix, etc) and I'm in the $200 range, just on my stuff. AT&T costs even more. Add the rest of the family, and we're in the $400 range per month, on crappy cellular internet.

"Basic Economics" would say that if something costs less to provide, the price to the end user should be less then the more expensive option. Since cellular networks are cheap enough that they are willing to abandon all of their landline customers, they should be charging $30 for unlimited everything.

zoom314

join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
·Time Warner Cable

Re: What's the Problem?

said by shrraga:

You consider Dial-up and Satellite internet? Try sharing either between a family of 4. Hughesnet costs $60 a month for 250 MB per day. That is a few youtube videos, per day. Dial-up is a much better value, at least most providers don't have data limits. Sure, the most you'll download per day is in the 130 MB range, but you only pay $10 for junk.
Good Internet is a necessity for most of our country's students, because of lots of online courses, homework which requires watching streaming media, and large program downloads. Just my Legit school work internet usage is in the 15GB/ month range which would cost me $130 on verizon's wireless network that they are shafting me on since it's so cheap for them, cheap enough that they are abandoning their DSL subscribers. Add in the 7 extra GB I use for my own stuff (hulu, netflix, etc) and I'm in the $200 range, just on my stuff. AT&T costs even more. Add the rest of the family, and we're in the $400 range per month, on crappy cellular internet.

"Basic Economics" would say that if something costs less to provide, the price to the end user should be less then the more expensive option. Since cellular networks are cheap enough that they are willing to abandon all of their landline customers, they should be charging $30 for unlimited everything.

I can hear the Verizon execs say: "Oh We can't have that, that would be unprofitable" and Repugs would say: "Communism"...

My DSL(3M/768K) costs Me $32.83 a month via Dry Loop, Yeah Verizon owns the line and the CO, of course this in CA, We have a CPUC, abandonment most likely is not an option. My phone service is through Verizon wireless, but I'm looking at taking My phone service to Virgin Mobile in September as My contract runs out on September 15th 2012 and I'm tired of paying $43.57 for Verizon, when I can pay about $20.00 a month instead(same minutes). If I had to leave DSL, It would be TWC that I'd have to go to and My internet cost might double then.

NWOhio2

@buckeyecom.net

Re: What's the Problem?

CA sold out to VZ and ATT for their TV deals- they'll sell you out again. they're also not fully abandoning anything- they still have a network under their other company; CellCo Partnership which can fully replace Verizon with no problems.. They decided to do the smart thing and move it away from wireline.

And you do realize your VM phone will NOT roam if you need to. Take it off the Sprint network ; and your SOL.

zoom314

join:2005-11-21
Yermo, CA
Reviews:
·DSL EXTREME
·Time Warner Cable
That's yer opinion, I'm a severely disabled shut in w/a very low income of $854.40 a month, it's the Internet or TV and there isn't much on 8 UHF TV channels out here, only thing is it doesn't cost Me anything at least. And the nearest library is about 12.5 miles from Here.
ed089

join:2010-09-11
Actually, if someone went through basic economics, he would have learned the what market forms are out there and what constitutes them. The number of suppliers, the barriers to entry. and product differentiation all play a role in describing what type of market form the market has.

That you ignore these factors and fail to identify that the market is most like an oligopoly suggests strongly that you do not know what basic economics are.

Another thing learned in basic economics are the difference between perfect and imperfect substitutes. A perfect substitute makes no difference to the consumer while imperfect substitutes might have differences that affect a consumer's utility from consuming that product. Once again, you do not comprehend this, even though investopedia is accessible by anyone.

Alex J

@apexcovantage.com

What's the Problem?

You mean aside from incumbent phone and cable companies forming a massive cartel designed to kill all competitors while dramatically raising already high prices by cornering the market -- resulting in an actual reduction in modern phone and broadband connectivity?

thegeek
Premium
join:2008-02-21
right here
kudos:2

Re: What's the Problem?

See my reply above.

Alex J

@apexcovantage.com

Re: What's the Problem?

You answered absolutely nothing.
Wilsdom

join:2009-08-06
I really want someone to slap you, and I'm willing to pay...

NOCTech75
Premium
join:2009-06-29
Marietta, GA
Reviews:
·Comcast

Re: What's the Problem?

Click for full size
said by Wilsdom:

I really want someone to slap you, and I'm willing to pay...

elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

3 recommendations

What kind of crap is that. A toilet isn't a need either but as civilized humans we have determined that running water is a societal benefit and hence sewer systems. People used to pour their crap on the sidewalks.

As for Internet, without it it is the same as not having running water or sewage. To succeed in an information society you need connectivity. If they can pull fiber in the poorest parts of the world, we can have it. When I was in India they were pulling fiber (massive spools) by digging trenches by hand and laying it by hand. It is a matter of priority and government willingness. Private corps will only go where there is maximum profit with minimal input --aka the juicy burbs.

If you put your head in the sand, the rest of the world gets it. We will become a third world country, wake up and wonder why. However the stockholders will be happy.

A few points:

1. Telco in the US is not open and competitive. They created a moat by lobbying and the fact the US never got around to requiring every home to have fiber connected to it--a "utility".
1a. How much waste is there when I have a coax, fiber, and an RJ11 jack sitting on the side of my house?
2. The ERA (electrical act) which allowed communities/coops to "self fund" and get folks on electricity has been bypassed by telco's forcing states to not allow this through legislation, now small communities are essentially at the mercy of these corporations.
3. The FCC is a rotating door of telco execs who pat each other on the back and form "rules" as such. If they don't like the outcomes, they take it to the courts which they have bought too through campaign funding.
4. Every one of these companies took PUBLIC money to build out their networks, and well they are not fulfilling their contract with the citizens.
5. If I wanted to start a WISP, I guarantee you it would take years to get through the red tape and getting easements or licensing making the cost prohibitive for an entrepreneur. You would be forced to run over an existing providers wire...

If you think people have a "vote" they do not. The deck has been stacked and the government is the enabler. I didn't grow up in the days of JP Morgan, Dupont, and all those other barons however I'm sure the populace felt the same way back in those days as people do today.
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..

1 recommendation

Re: What's the Problem?

said by elefante72:

As for Internet, without it it is the same as not having running water or sewage.

Dumb analogy. Nobody ever got dysentery from a lack of internet access.

People in rural areas pay money to maintain wells and septic tanks. Strange how nobody advocates subsidizing those but a good number of people around here think that rural internet access should be subsidized.

ptrowski
Got Helix?
Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4

Re: What's the Problem?

said by Crookshanks:

said by elefante72:

As for Internet, without it it is the same as not having running water or sewage.

Dumb analogy. Nobody ever got dysentery from a lack of internet access.

People in rural areas pay money to maintain wells and septic tanks. Strange how nobody advocates subsidizing those but a good number of people around here think that rural internet access should be subsidized.

Maybe because of the name of the site being DSLreports and not wellsndsepticreports.
--
"So, Lone Starr, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb."

Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org
elefante72

join:2010-12-03
East Amherst, NY

2 recommendations

Maybe not but people DIE.

My wife is a physician. One night in the hospital an emergency occurred and the radiologist was not available. They sent the xrays over to Australia via the "optional" internet, and he caught a lung issue, otherwise the person would have died. This was in "rural" upstate NY with a town of 200,000 people.

And I pay a sewer tax, which gets me my effluence flushed. I guess that is a subsidy you are talking about. And I pay a water utility tax to get me water, along w/ consumption fee. I pay a library tax, I pay a highway tax, I pay a medicare tax, I pay for 20% of the people in my county to work for the government.

For rural areas, having access to these types of services help save lives and bring services that make everyone's lives better than ever before. The list goes on, and the benefits to internet access are infinite. Look up robotic/remote doctors. You need an internet for this.

I spend a good chunk my free time working w/ small business and communities to get proper internet access. You would be ashamed to know how bad it is out there. A small business (3 people) I was working with, TWC wanted $90/month for 3Mbs/384k and another $120 a month for basic dialtone (2 lines). Sounds like a deal.

As to subsidies, if we took the USF and put it into fibre, we could have already wired America with fibre.

I heard from inside sources that a POP now averages $300 per house to wire w/ a GPON. A family of 4 could pay that to Verizon every month. I will concede in rural areas it would cost more, however w/ Corning Clearcurve the installation costs have gone dramatically down and the ease of installation up so that any guy that is handy could wire (not terminate yet).

I had to pay $4k to get electricity ran to my house when it was built and I live in the cushy burbs.

Priorities....
elray

join:2000-12-16
Santa Monica, CA
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·EarthLink

Re: What's the Problem?

said by elefante72:

I heard from inside sources that a POP now averages $300 per house to wire w/ a GPON. A family of 4 could pay that to Verizon every month. I will concede in rural areas it would cost more, however w/ Corning Clearcurve the installation costs have gone dramatically down and the ease of installation up so that any guy that is handy could wire (not terminate yet).

If that's the case, then there would be a flurry of over-builders springing up in every community.
Crookshanks

join:2008-02-04
Binghamton, NY
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
said by elefante72:

My wife is a physician. One night in the hospital an emergency occurred and the radiologist was not available. They sent the xrays over to Australia via the "optional" internet, and he caught a lung issue, otherwise the person would have died.

Which has exactly nothing at all to do with residential internet access. BTW, I'm familiar with the rural healthcare program through USAC; my employer receives funding for our internet access through it. It has been a godsend to us; but it still has nothing at all to do with residential internet access.

said by elefante72:

And I pay a sewer tax, which gets me my effluence flushed. I guess that is a subsidy you are talking about. And I pay a water utility tax to get me water, along w/ consumption fee. I pay a library tax, I pay a highway tax, I pay a medicare tax, I pay for 20% of the people in my county to work for the government.

Right, you pay for it. You do not expect me to pay for it. Nor do I expect you to pay for the maintenance of my septic system because I choose to live somewhere without access to municipal sewer service.

said by elefante72:

I heard from inside sources that a POP now averages $300 per house to wire w/ a GPON. A family of 4 could pay that to Verizon every month.

Your family of four has a lot more money than my family of four....
bcltoys

join:2008-07-21
Lost today
I'll have you,I get to pay Maryland 60.00 dollar's a year to put my poo in their dirt.
big_e

join:2011-03-05
Reviews:
·Comcast
·Frontier Communi..

1 edit

1 recommendation

The arguments against rural broadband deployment are the same used a hundred years ago to oppose rural electrification.

"And last I checked electricity is not a necessity, it is only a want. If you want it bad enough then you pay the prices required to get it."

LTE is equivilant to the electric company selling you batteries instead of hooking your house up to the grid.
jeffreydean1

join:2010-05-31

1 edit

1 recommendation

People like you are ruining our once great country, destroying the middle class, and removing ther American Dream from sight forever.

MovieLover76

join:2009-09-11
kudos:1

1 recommendation

Re: What's the Problem?

I really hope the American people wake up to this fact, because these false "open markets' which are completely rigged and getting worse due increasing corporate control of our government are destroying this country. As well as the people who blindly support it.

If you remove regulations and allow corporations to do whatever they want to make a profit, it will not result in economic growth for the country, it will result in increased centralization of wealth and increasing the gap between the rich and the poor.
jeffreydean1

join:2010-05-31

Re: What's the Problem?

It's not so much the removal of regulations that's the problem, but allowing the most powerful corporations to WRITE the regulations and laws, allowing them to take full legal advantage over any and all competition while sending their own retired executives to enforce the regulations they helped write.

This isn't capitalism. No true competition can exist in this situation.

djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO

1 edit

The great thing is if you don't like it you can vote with your wallet and use a competitor.

What competitor? If Verizon shuts down the copper business and you're not blessed by being in a FiOS area, you're for all intents and purposes stuck with cable (who Verizon conveniently is making deals with). LTE is not a substitute for proper wired broadband.

Verizon's copper is the conduit that most competitive internet services ride on. Now we're not just talking about Verizon DSL, but Covad DSL and third party ISPs like DSLExtreme and Earthlink. These options are dying on the vine, but they could see a resurgence if the major players keep pushing costly metered broadband.

People have been crying about the lack of competition (duopoly/monopoly) around here for as long as I can remember. If this goes as described (and AT&T follows suit, as one would expect), we'll all be begging for the good old days of having a choice.

--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.

Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:23
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..

Re: What's the Problem?

Let's not forget too, the copper network is also delivering their more expensive T1/T3/Ethernet solutions that a fiber connection isn't serving so they're also throwing that out of the window too. That puts everyone in an interesting situation who asks for such service if the copper network is turned off.

jazzy112

@96.18.65.x

Re: What's the Problem?

they deliver everything over fiber, if you truly want to choke your fiber by adapting it to these interfaces, they'll happily do it for you. Problem is that Calix is terrible at making the equipment work right. If fiber is your only connection on the side of your building, you're far better off going with SIP Trunking and Metro E.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1

Re: What's the Problem?

Actually, there are still a great number of T1's that are on copper... ironically, some of those feeding cell sites. Anything T3 or higher though will be on fiber (unless there are actually some of those Verizon coax cables still in service!)

Smith's point is valid and actually goes far beyond copper since the fiber network is also considered 'landline' (which Verizon claims is dying). The same 'landline' techs Verizon has been screwing are the one that maintain the fiber network (most likely soon to be low quality contractors). The same cost-cutting methods implemented for copper are being applied to the fiber network (with equally damaging results).

It is fitting that with all their newly claimed 'business savvy', Verizon is too stupid to realize that their precious wireless network relies on the fiber they have been neglecting and the techs they claim are not necessary.

Smith6612
Premium,MVM
join:2008-02-01
North Tonawanda, NY
kudos:23
Reviews:
·Verizon Online DSL
·Frontier Communi..

2 edits

Re: What's the Problem?

My point exactly. What is ironic is that many of the cell sites that use Fiber out here that have gotten hooked up recently use fiber circuits from the Cable company. Telco fiber is used where available but that's essentially fiber running between COs or to remote terminals with extra pairs. Yet, many of the towers where I am still feed off of T1s and they are always terrible. LTE comes and goes here, and it, too runs terrible (but faster) when there's a strong signal.

At work, much of the bandwidth we have coming in and out are from non-Telco sources. A good chunk of it is coming from the Cable co and the rest are coming from other Fiber providers in the area that are far less known but are awesome and actually own their own fiber. We've got Fiber from Verizon for Data and even Voice for the PBX but they kicked and screamed to run that fiber to the Datacenter (work) even when we offered to pay all of the cost associated with it. The other companies were all "Sure, no problem. Here's your line; it's lit".

I'm still wondering, in a transcript of the chat I saw regarding McAdam's comment on him not wanting people to use the LTE network while at home for service, especially with video. Consider per »www.phillipdampier.com/documents···_12.pdf:

So our thinking going forward as we talk about kind of the ‘One Verizon’ approach is we want to use every network asset we have and if that means jumping onto FiOS or using the cloud services for mobile as well as fixed line, using security across all of our different access technologies, we want that network to be seamless and that is what our CTO, Tony Melone, is driving hard on in the business right now

If you take a page of what's going on with the mobile phone industry, they're trying to push everything onto a Wi-Fi network delivered over some sort of landline service, whether cable-co supplied or Telco-supplied (usually Telco). What happens if Verizon takes out the Wireline network? Well, then they threw away assets they could have used, but now they get to charge for wireless data. The HomeFusion service is a pre-mature concept of this. What if you take an LTE phone for example, and put it on Wi-Fi at a home that has HomeFusion? You're right back where you started but now you've added another layer of revenue and more stuff to break/not support.

I am still wondering why in areas where DSL has been de-commissioned the equipment isn't being moved to unserved locations to actually get more customers, if they actually wanted to make money. It's not buying new assets, it's ripping it out of one spot and planting it in another.
CXM_Splicer
Looking at the bigger picture
Premium
join:2011-08-11
NYC
kudos:1
quote:
Get rid of costly labor. Increase prices. Reduce costs. How else is a business supposed to make a profit. I just don't see the problem here.

The problem is that you don't have to take those to extremes to run a profitable, growing business. They are done to increase the amount of money going to the welfare recipients (the shareholders) who feel they should be paid for doing nothing. If Wall St. disappeared tomorrow the sudden resulting increase in efficiency would boggle the mind.

I spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week doing what I can to lower the price of Verizon stock.
openbox9
Premium
join:2004-01-26
japan
kudos:2

Re: What's the Problem?

said by CXM_Splicer:

They are done to increase the amount of money going to the welfare recipients (the shareholders) who feel they should be paid for doing nothing.

Nothing except for owning the business and investing resources to enable VZ to deploy FiOS and build its LTE infrastructure. Silly owners wanting to be paid for their investments. This is a classic debate/misunderstanding between owners, management, and labor...just as I'm sure that you'll argue that owners and management are blind to labor's concerns.
said by CXM_Splicer:

If Wall St. disappeared tomorrow the sudden resulting increase in efficiency would boggle the mind.

That's great until a company needs resources from the equity or debt markets to grow and expand its business.
said by CXM_Splicer:

I spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week doing what I can to lower the price of Verizon stock.

You don't seem to be doing a very good job in that endeavor.

••••••••
TheRogueX

join:2003-03-26
Springfield, MO
Reviews:
·Mediacom
Great idea! Fire people making a living wage, hire other people at barely over minimum wage, AND raise prices! Because that's the way to keep people subscribed to your services! People with no money ALWAYS buy over-priced services!

How about... hire more people at living wages (thus creating more people with money they can spend, as opposed to people who can only live paycheck-to-paycheck), lowering prices, and reducing costs (oh, like CEO and upper-executive pay and dividend %)? Suddenly you'd have more people with real money interested in your more competitively-priced product.... and you'd MAKE MORE MONEY.

ITALIAN926

join:2003-08-16
kudos:2
So, when you call into tech support, or customer service, and terminate in India, youre fine with that right? Because youre a sit-at-home-do-nothing-all-day stockholder?

Get a clue as to whats really happening here.

michieru
Premium
join:2009-07-25
Miami, FL
Reviews:
·Comcast Business..
·AT&T U-Verse
I used to preach a similar analogy but it's flawed.

When we have operators stopping municipal projects that provide higher quality services at a cheaper cost we cannot say there is competition and simply go towards another provider with our wallet. We need to look at the overall spectrum of the current problem and just the for profit business perspective.

Yes, internet is not a necessity. Food, shelter and water are your "physical" necessities. We are part of the information age though and so morally we can argue whether it's a social necessity.

CWA

@myvzw.com
Do you know how much profit Verizon makes per year? Obviously not, your ignorant to unions obviously, if unions didn't fight for the working class Americans, there would be no middle class, you'd have the rich and the poor, big companies would run wild with no accountability to their actions...