Topic 'Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?' in forum 'Wireless Users Chat' - dslreports.com

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:18:48 EDT

WHT posted :

said by robbin:

Yes, every time anyone drills a hole it causes damage.

It's de minimis damage.

said by robbin:

Neither you, or any other wISP, has the authority to damage the private property of the landlord

Agreed....No one has the authority to take a sledge hammer to a wall and rip open a ten foot hole to feed in a 3/8" coax.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 04:48:47 EDT

robbin posted : Yes, every time anyone drills a hole it causes damage. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Neither you, or any other wISP, has the authority to damage the private property of the landlord and violate the terms of the lease between said landlord and their tenant.

Actually this thread has helped me. I have discovered that my professional organization has a specific lease addendum. Not only does it prohibit holes through outside walls, etc. but I can also require an additional security deposit to "protect against possible repair costs" as well as liability insurance and indemnity to protect against "claims of personal injury and property damage to others".

Just search for the Satellite Dish and Antenna Addendum of the TAA (Texas Apartment Association)

DirecTv also has a permission form for property owners of rental properties and it states "...standard professional installation many times includes the drilling of holes in order to run cable and attaching a dish securely to the outside of the structure. Any such type of modification may be forbidden pursuant to the terms of your lease/rental agreement or may require pre-approval by the landlord."

Search for Directv installation permission if you want to read that one.

So, two documents from very large organizations which both recognize the right of the landlord to prohibit damage to their property by antennas covered by OTARD.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 03:27:53 EDT

WHT posted :

said by robbin:

As I stated earlier, any utility such as Telcos and cable companies are not covered by OTARD. What they do just does not apply to this discussion.

I'll tackle this one first.

I never suggested OTARD applies to telephone or TV cable installs.

My examples of telephone company and cable company installs (including outdoor electrical work, water and gas plumbing) is to demonstrate there is no clear and present damage caused by penetrating an exterior wall.

I'll repeat that...there is no clear and present damage caused by penetrating an exterior wall (when properly done using best practices).

If indeed that could be used as a valid excuse by property owners, why has that excuse never been presented to the FCC?

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 01:05:19 EDT

robbin posted :

said by WHT:

No it does not explicitly say that on the FCC website.

The FCC says it may be prohibited if it would cause damage.

This is exactly what it says

"Q:� Are there restrictions that can be placed on residents of rental property?

A:� Yes.� A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable.� For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof.� However, a restriction designed to prevent ordinary wear and tear (e.g., marks, scratches, and minor damage to carpets, walls and draperies) would likely not be reasonable provided the antenna is installed wholly within the antenna user's own exclusive use area.� In addition, rental property is subject to the same protection and exceptions to the rule as owned property.� Thus, a landlord may impose other types of restrictions that do not impair installation, maintenance or use under the rule.� The landlord may also impose restrictions necessary for safety or historic preservation."

Where do you see anything here that says the landlord has to "prove" the particular installation will cause damage? In fact, it says just the opposite. It says that a restriction to prevent holes in the walls and roof would be reasonable.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:55:29 EDT

robbin posted :

said by WHT:

The key phrase is "may prohibit". The burden of proof of damage would be on the property owner, and that argument could easily be diluted by showing how often a telephone company, TV cable company, or other satellite TV installers have successfully done installations without causing damage.

There is no burden of proof. The landlord MAY PROHIBIT -- that is in relation to the lease. The FCC agrees that the landlord may prohibit that type of action occurring on property they own. Show me where any exemptions are granted in relation to OTARD if you are a "professional" installer. As I stated earlier, any utility such as Telcos and cable companies are not covered by OTARD. What they do just does not apply to this discussion.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:47:48 EDT

WHT posted : No it does not explicitly say that on the FCC website.

The FCC says it may be prohibited if it would cause damage.

[Also on the FCC web site] The burden of proof of damage would be on the property owner, and that argument could easily be diluted by (the tenant) showing how often a telephone company, TV cable company, or other satellite TV installers have successfully done installations without causing damage.

//edit for paragraph drop

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 00:44:43 EDT

robbin posted :

said by WHT:

said by robbin:

if you used the satellite company as an example then you would have been just as clearly wrong under OTARD.

Why? OTARD also covers satellite antenna installations. Again you missed my point...Wall penetrations when properly done are not damaging.

I didn't miss your point. Satellite installations aren't allowed to penetrate either just because of OTARD. And again, you missed my other point, ANY penetration of any outside surface of the structure causes damage. The Landlord can say no. It says so on the FCC website.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:41:41 EDT

WHT posted :

said by robbin:

if you used the satellite company as an example then you would have been just as clearly wrong under OTARD.

Why? OTARD also covers satellite antenna installations. Again you missed my point...Wall penetrations when properly done are not damaging.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:40:13 EDT

WHT posted :

said by robbin:

Well, I guess you would have to take that argument up with the FCC because, from their site

"Q: Are there restrictions that can be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof..."

See what I posted about a professional installation and how that would dilute a property owners argument that it would damage a wall.

The Q & A that I originally quoted, restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling. was simply a brief answer and not an all encompassing limitation.

The key phrase is "may prohibit". The burden of proof of damage would be on the property owner, and that argument could easily be diluted by showing how often a telephone company, TV cable company, or other satellite TV installers have successfully done installations without causing damage.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:27:37 EDT

robbin posted : Evidently you don't understand the purpose of walls then, because a hole in a wall is damage. Please respond to the quote I posted from the FCC if you want to continue this discussion of whether a restriction on penetrations of the exterior is allowed under OTARD.

Edit -- if you used the satellite company as an example then you would have been just as clearly wrong under OTARD.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:21:50 EDT

WHT posted :

said by robbin:

I want to comment specifically on this statement because, in my mind, this is a real problem among some WISPs. NO, YOU ARE NOT A UTILITY. You don't have the same rights. You don't have any obligations. Pretending that you can behave like the local Telco is probably the worst thing you could ever do.

You missed my entire point. I was demonstrating that there is no obvious damage to walls when a cable is installed. I just happened to use telephone company, I could have just as easily used satellite TV company.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:55:10 EDT

robbin posted :

said by WHT:

the tenant merely has to make mention of the millions of times the telephone company drills a hole in an exterior wall

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:36:48 EDT

robbin posted : Well, I guess you would have to take that argument up with the FCC because, from their site

"Q: Are there restrictions that can be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof..."

I don't understand the issue here. Hasn't anyone read this stuff?

»www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-rece···ces-rule

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:18:36 EDT

WHT posted : True...The property owner can try to prohibit the install, but the tenant is allowed to challenged that and would have a good compelling argument if a professional installer is used that would not cause permanent damage, i.e. properly sealing the screws and cable entry.

For a property owner were to claim drilling through a wall would damage it, the tenant merely has to make mention of the millions of times the telephone company drills a hole in an exterior wall and there is no damage.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 22:13:34 EDT

robbin posted : I think some of your thoughts need a little clarification. You are right that the landlord or HOA cannot prevent an installation on locations as you have mentioned. However, they can have "restrictions necessary to prevent damage". Think no penetrations here -- yes you can put your antenna on the roof, but you cannot damage the roof. Yes, you can put your antenna on the balcony but you cannot damage the balcony. I don't know how you mount an antenna on a wall without damage but I guess, yes you can use giant suction cups to mount the antenna on the wall, but you cannot damage the wall. And no, you cannot drill through the wall for your cable as that would "damage" the wall.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 21:51:15 EDT

WHT posted : Referring back to

quote:
»www.fcc.gov/guides/installing-co···e-dishes

It looks like the Rule marginally favors the tenant (What Types of Properties Are Covered?), but I also see where the tenant can be prohibited from causing damage (What kinds of restrictions are permitted?).

quote:
What Types of Properties Are Covered?

Under the OTARD rules, an owner or a tenant has the right to install an antenna (that meets size limitations) on property that he owns or over which he has exclusive use or control. This includes single family homes, condominiums, cooperatives, townhomes and manufactured homes.

That clearly means a property owner renting a single dwelling house cannot prohibit an installation anywhere on the dwelling.

quote:
In the case of condominiums, cooperatives and rental properties, the rules apply to “exclusive use” areas, like terraces, balconies or patios.

That clearly means a property owner renting anything other than a single dwelling property cannot prohibit an installation anywhere on the dwelling where only the renter has access to, or "exclusive use" defined below.

quote:
“Exclusive use” refers to an area of the property that only the renter and people allowed by the renter may enter and use. If the area is shared with others or accessible without the renter’s permission, it is not considered to be an exclusive use area.

That clearly means you can mount an antenna on the wall of a renter's balcony or porch, but not on the roof or extending above roof above the balcony or porch.

HOWEVER....

quote:
What kinds of restrictions are permitted?

Restrictions necessary to prevent damage to leased property are permissible, as long as the restrictions are reasonable. For example, a lease restriction that forbids tenants from damaging the balcony floor when installing an antenna is likely to be permissible.

That means the property owner could prohibit a self-install by an inexperienced person, because it's reasonable to assume an inexperienced person may cause damage.

BUT...

quote:
If there is a conflict about a restriction’s validity, the association, landlord or local government trying to enforce the restriction must prove it is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the person or entity trying to enforce the restriction must prove that it is legitimate.

That might mean the owner trying to prohibit an installation may not be able to show a professional installation would be damaging.

Bottom line appears that a WISP can install an antenna and cable on an apartment wall within the confines of the tenant's space.

And this interesting post, »forum.ubnt.com/showthread.php?t=21895
Here the FCC ruled against Boston's city airports prohibition against Continental putting in their own wireless access points and presumably the antennas, citing the OTARD Rule.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 20:34:29 EDT

wirelessdog posted : I am independently investigating further as my understand appears at least on the surface to be incorrect. When I receive confirmation back from my independent source I will come back to this subject.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:12:58 EDT

WHT posted :

quote:
Q: If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, ... For example, the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

said by wirelessdog:

That is speaking of a multiple dwelling unit which a tenant does not have exclusive access to.

It is speaking as an example, it is not speaking to differentiate a MDU from a single tenant dwelling. If the property owner says not wall penetration, then no wall penetration.

On a side note about any wire or coax run under a window or door seal...That too can be prohibited. U.S. Dept. of Agriculture assisted rent properties have a rule the windows and doors must be lockable with original factory locks. Cracking the window open and using after-market locks - those aluminum clips with thumb screw - are not allowed.

said by wirelessdog:

No, you need to realize that just because you put something in a lease does not make it legal.

As long as it isn't prohibited by statute, you can put what ever you want in the lease - regardless how unfair, complex, or illogical it may be.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 13:15:51 EDT

robbin posted : First of all, as I previously stated, my lease is written by lawyers for one of the largest landlord organizations in the country. They do not put things in it which are illegal.

Your ignorance on the OTARD issue astounds me. In my second post on this issue I suggested that the OTARD discussion be taken to the WISP forum as I know you post there. A thread was started but you have chosen not to post in it as is your choice. I can only guess that you don't really want to discuss this issue with your peers but instead just continue to take this thread off-topic with mis-information.

As WHT previously stated in this thread

said by WHT:

OTARD only addresses restrictions of outdoor antennas. the property is still within legal right to restrict wall penetrations.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 08:22:23 EDT

wirelessdog posted : No, you need to realize that just because you put something in a lease does not make it legal.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 04:45:34 EDT

davidhoffman posted : The only way I know is to build a gap filler that goes between the bottom of the window and the bottom of the window opening. You can make it out of metal, laminated wood, phenolic, or fiberglass. It needs to have properly align and machined surfaces so it fits snugly against the existing surfaces. Usually it needs weatherproof seals attached. It has to have the correct connectors installed, so that the coax from the antenna can be detached from the gap filler separately from the coax that goes to the modem, set top box, or television. You will also need to raise up or lower the window latching device on the other part of the window with a shim block and longer bolts. If you are renting and leave the place, you disconnect the coax cables, remove the gap filler, take out the shim block, screw the latching device back in, clean up the area, and no harm done to the property. If you are really careful to match the materials and coatings, a relatively thin gap filler will blend in with the rest of the window. From a short distance it will look like you have the window raised slightly. You do not want to raise it too much, as from a long distance it will look like an open window and will invite thieves to attack it as a possible entrance point that they can get into without breaking the glass.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 22:15:49 EDT

robbin posted : Instead, why don't you learn what OTARD allows so you don't continue to mislead other users of this forum. :uhh:

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 21:54:52 EDT

wirelessdog posted : Wow. Another landlord who believes he is above the law. I'd love to know who your tenant is.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 16:12:19 EDT

robbin posted :

said by wirelessdog:

If the outdoor antenna cannot be properly installed without drilling a hole the burden of proof is on the landlord that OTARD does not cover this. OTARD sides with the consumer in most cases, the landlord cannot require the antenna be removed until the FCC makes their decision. Its pretty cut and dry.

Burden of proof? The lease stated "NO HOLES". My lease was very clear and now the tenant is being evicted. I have a very strong lease, 6 legal pages of small print written and backed by one of the largest landlord organizations in the country. It stands up in court. This has nothing to do with whether it is single or multi-family. The tenant still must abide by the lease.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 13:17:49 EDT

wirelessdog posted : That is speaking of a multiple dwelling unit which a tenant does not have exclusive access to.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 06:46:56 EDT

anon posted : when is someone gonna invent window coax that works with cell repeater systems or even direct connect systems?

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:46:00 EDT

WHT posted : And it would be reasonable to assume that mounting an antenna by partially screwing in a screw into a wall would still be considered a wall penetration.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:19:41 EDT

WHT posted : From the FCC website, »www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-rece···ces-rule

quote:
Q: If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, ... For example, the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:02:30 EDT

wirelessdog posted : If the outdoor antenna cannot be properly installed without drilling a hole the burden of proof is on the landlord that OTARD does not cover this. OTARD sides with the consumer in most cases, the landlord cannot require the antenna be removed until the FCC makes their decision. Its pretty cut and dry.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 20:50:59 EDT

WHT posted :

said by angry :

I rent and my landlord said i can't drill holes in the floor or wall of the house

said by wirelessdog:

Landlord can't prohibit you from doing that. Google OTARD

OTARD only addresses restrictions of outdoor antennas. the property is still within legal right to restrict wall penetrations. This is why window sill coax was invented.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 17:48:06 EDT

robbin posted : This part of the discussion would be better carried out in the WISP forum. OTARD does not give the tenant the right to damage the landlord's property. I am both a landlord and a WISP.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:49:33 EDT

wirelessdog posted : Not hardly. The Landlord can specify an area where equipment is to be installed but can absolutely not prohibit equipment from being installed - holes or not.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Sat, 21 Jul 2012 15:57:05 EDT

robbin posted :

said by wirelessdog:

Landlord can't prohibit you from doing that. Google OTARD

Landlord can most certainly prevent the tenant from drilling holes or other similar actions which damage the landlord's property.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 21:43:09 EDT

Max Signal posted : you can't , not you can trust anyhow . Only if it is a trusted manufacturer . Too Many aftermarket crap dealers on ebay . Claim their product to be on thing and it is really crappy . There are trustworthy dealers out there that give you real numbers . Stay away from brands such as Cell-gear . Trusted names are Cyfre , Wilson, Antennex , Laird to name a few.

said by angry :

may be a dumb question but where can i get ratings on dual band antennas?

--
»www.maximumsignal.net/

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:22:21 EDT

anon posted : may be a dumb question but where can i get ratings on dual band antennas?

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 11:16:08 EDT

wirelessdog posted : Landlord can't prohibit you from doing that. Google OTARD

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:48:38 EDT

Max Signal posted : You should just get a direct connect amplifier kit , if you are just concerned about your 3G card . Jim has reviewed the cyfre amplifier kit at www.evdo-tips.com You can put the antenna by a window inside . If you have an antenna outside , there will have to be cable . an antenna has to have cable running to inside antenna on any wireless amplifier system.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:48:38 EDT

anon posted : i might could put the antenna outside so long as it could transfer the signal into my house without using wires. It's the whole drilling holes and running wires through the wall and floor that posses a problem

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Fri, 20 Jul 2012 07:47:51 EDT

anon posted : the house is about 1350 square feet so not that big. If a repeater system isn't possible i can try just using a direct amp to connect to a data card on my computer as getting 3g is my main concern. I'm expecting some money via wu on the 27th and i can't really make any purchases before then. I just want to get my ducks in a row a head of time.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Thu, 19 Jul 2012 01:47:03 EDT

Max Signal posted : Not that I know of , How big an area do have to cover . I had an idea just now . You should call us. Link below in signature
--
»www.maximumsignal.net/

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 23:25:27 EDT

anon posted : Max do you know if anyone makes flat wire that will work with a cellular repeater system? I have dish and when it was installed the dude used a special flat wire that would fit under the bottom of the window.

Re: Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:44:28 EDT

Max Signal posted : you can try that . But the system will not work as well . The better the donor signal , the better the system works . You are going to get a much better donor door signal if you have the antenna outside.
--
»www.maximumsignal.net/

Any wireless cell phone repeater systems out there?

Wed, 18 Jul 2012 09:35:16 EDT

anon posted : I rent and my landlord said i can't drill holes in the floor or wall of the house so using an outdoor antenna seems out of the question. Unless someone knows how to the signal from the antenna to inside my house without drilling holes? I"ve heard some outdoor antennas will work if you put them in the addict. So do they make an amp that will wireless broadcast a signal? That way i could put an antenna and amp in the addict and have it broadcast a boosted signal throughout the house