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hmm
@videotron.ca

hmm

Anon

Quebecor wins court ruling over Bell

Quebecor wins court ruling over Bell
»www.theglobeandmail.com/ ··· 4439409/

In other words, Bell encouraged sat users to pirate signals and thus prevented churn/loss to the competition.

PKP states:
“We are glad to see the Superior Court condemn Bell for resorting to illegal means that weaken its competitors and for having failed to meet its obligations to protect rather than undermine the integrity of the Quebec and Canadian broadcasting sector,”

heh corporate sponsored & encouraged piracy.

It really did suck when Bell fixed that up. I had free sat for many years.
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

4 edits

the cerberus

Member

Not that I like Bell or anything, but this is just illogical, its not Bell's fault Nagra got hacked, and they did change cards 2 times after trying ECM's (Electronic Counter Measures) on NagraVision 1 and 2.
said by Globe and Mail :

Bell TV failed 10 years ago to put in place measures to prevent aspects of the illegal decoding of its satellite signals despite its knowledge of the activities and its ability to put a stop to them.

Bell TV didnt exist 10 years ago, it was Bell ExpressVu and Dish Network Canada before that.

I'm not sure if this is Globe and Mails fault or the courts but decoding has nothing to do with this, its decrypting that's the issue.
In other words the issue is not DVB-S (the encoding), the issue is with NagraVision (the encryption).
"Illegal decoding" is just plain laughable. It just goes to show these people dont understand what they are reporting about.

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

They never made piracy easy either.

Making piracy easy would not involve investing in NagraVision and ECMs.

I guess they just didnt have the lawyers to fight this one.

hmm
@videotron.ca

hmm

Anon

It took only a download to fix whatever Bell tried to do. Everyone was using free BeV.

I still have the old boxes & old cards some place in the shed next to the dish.

Once they finally frigged people, people got rid of their basic package and went elsewhere. BeV wasn't worth keeping w/o all the free channels. Even Bell knew this.

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt to hmm

Premium Member

to hmm
Haha, this is hilarious...
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

2 edits

the cerberus to hmm

Member

to hmm
said by hmm :

It took only a download to fix whatever Bell tried to do. Everyone was using free BeV.

I still have the old boxes & old cards some place in the shed next to the dish.

Once they finally frigged people, people got rid of their basic package and went elsewhere. BeV wasn't worth keeping w/o all the free channels. Even Bell knew this.

But every provider that was using Nagra1 and 2 at the time, ECM was standard procedure Nagra gave as "support" for their product, then every provider had to switch to 3 when "support" ended.

I would argue Nagra was at fault or whoever they are suing for hacking their cards in the first place.

If you actually look into the history, Bell just purchased this Dish Network Canada, and this Nagra thing wasnt even their choice in the first place.

Bell encrypted their streams, Dish Network chose the vendor Nagra, and every provider follows whatever the vendor says, unless they want to spend millions on new cards/and possibly receivers.

Currently the Nagra3 card isnt hacked, but like every subscription ca card, it can be shared, and things like this arent going to stop.

Maybe it will be hacked, maybe whatever encryption Rogers or Shaw Direct uses will be hacked, but its hardly the providers fault when these things happen.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc to the cerberus

Member

to the cerberus
said by the cerberus:

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

1 edit

the cerberus

Member

said by milnoc:

said by the cerberus:

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.

Not really, key information about Nagravision was forced out/leaked that lead to cracks. It wasnt any specific providers fault.

Heres the story

There was a court case in Europe and in court, it was required as evidence, to provide some key information about how nagravision 2 worked in scrambling and securing the broadcasts.

The programmers of Nagravision 2 were told they had to comply and reveal how their system worked basically.

That is how Nagravision 2 became public knowledge and lead to the birth of all the companies that made "free TV" receivers.

Bell was caught in the middle of this so Nagra offered ECM's as support while they worked on the new ca, Nagravision3.

As for DirectTV they were hacked for a long time, what made it "end" was spending millions on a vendor switch which involved a card change and new receivers.

El Quintron
Cancel Culture Ambassador
Premium Member
join:2008-04-28
Tronna

El Quintron to milnoc

Premium Member

to milnoc
said by milnoc:

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.

A bit more information regarding this can be found here:

»www.wired.com/politics/s ··· Page=all
quote:
Christopher Tarnovsky feels vindicated. The software engineer and former satellite-TV pirate has been on the hot seat for five years, accused of helping his former employer, a Rupert Murdoch company, sabotage a rival to gain the top spot in the global pay-TV wars.

But two weeks ago a jury in the civil lawsuit against that employer, NDS Group, largely cleared the company -- and by extension Tarnovsky -- of piracy, finding NDS guilty of only a single incident of stealing satellite signals, for which Dish was awarded $1,500 in damages.

It's an extensive read, but basically, it states that Dish/Echo's main rivals assisted in hacking to weaken Dish.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone to milnoc

Premium Member

to milnoc
said by milnoc:

That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked.

*coughHcardHUcardcough*

Spike5
Premium Member
join:2008-05-16
Toronto, ON

Spike5

Premium Member

said by Gone:

said by milnoc:

That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked.

*coughHcardHUcardcough*

IIRC someone leaked the details of the DirecTV encryption system internally as well... I believe they got jailed for it
zorxd
join:2010-02-05
Quebec, QC

zorxd to hmm

Member

to hmm
Quebecor only gets 1M$ so can we really call this a victory?

Spike5
Premium Member
join:2008-05-16
Toronto, ON

Spike5 to hmm

Premium Member

to hmm
Regardless, most people don't care about hacking satellite TV anymore, hence why its not as common as it used to be.
All the good device hackers are long gone or have careers and others have taken to jailbreaking video game consoles and smartphones.

The internet makes it far easier for someone to get whatever they want and when they want it.

elwoodblues
Elwood Blues
Premium Member
join:2006-08-30
Somewhere in

elwoodblues to zorxd

Premium Member

to zorxd
It was never about the money, it was about making a point and they did.

hmm
@videotron.ca

hmm

Anon

said by elwoodblues:

It was never about the money, it was about making a point and they did.

Well, Videotron was hacked as well during that time. but it was more of a bitch to fix, and it cost more.

Example: If you wern't bright enough to download a rom on your own someone would do your Bell card (or Jtag, or whatever) for 25-50$.

To do a videotron one, it was 200$. It was more involved.

Videotron fixed theirs lickity-split. Bell giggled as they not only had the market for the most basic services with hacked and free channels, but they also knew people went to their boxes because the prices was affordable. 50$ versus 200$.

The whole market was based on piracy, Videotron lost.

But once bell was forced to upgrade the cards, people saw zero value in BeV. It just wasn't worth it, and switched to videotron.

Piracy is bad kids. Don't do it.

milnoc
join:2001-03-05
Ottawa

milnoc to Gone

Member

to Gone
said by Gone:

*coughHcardHUcardcough*

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by milnoc:

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.

Bullshit. DirecTV was just as easy to hack, and was done *years* before Dish and BEV were. You still see plenty of DirecTV dishes on people's roofs in memory of those days.
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

1 edit

the cerberus

Member

said by Gone:

said by milnoc:

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.

Bullshit. DirecTV was just as easy to hack, and was done *years* before Dish and BEV were. You still see plenty of DirecTV dishes on people's roofs in memory of those days.

LOL those dishes are not just in memory, most of the hardware works for FTA, Bell and Dish Network and so it is being reused.

I agree, neither satellite provider was easier to hack than the other, and both happened due to leaks.

None of this can be blamed on the provider for choosing the wrong encryption vendor, its entirely the vendor/hacker/leaker who is at fault.
said by hmm :

Videotron fixed theirs lickity-split. Bell giggled as they not only had the market for the most basic services with hacked and free channels, but they also knew people went to their boxes because the prices was affordable. 50$ versus 200$.

The whole market was based on piracy, Videotron lost.

Again, and I dont know why I am repeating this because you clearly arent listening, Bell did not just giggle, neither did Dish Network or DirectTV, every provider chose a path of ECM's before swapping out cards. STANDARD PROCEDURE!!!
They PAYED Nagra for the encryption and so "support" was given in the form of ECM's until the Nagra3 card was ready to be deployed.

DirectTV had to spend a ton of money switching card vendors and receivers entirely. Thats the only reason they got out earlier.
said by hmm :

But once bell was forced to upgrade the cards, people saw zero value in BeV. It just wasn't worth it, and switched to videotron.

Are you that daft to think a card change somehow stopped piracy?

Like I said above every subscription tv ca can be shared online, and no provider can stop it so far....

Ca sharing is arguably better than hacked cards or emu.
Emu needed to be patched with every ECM and hacked cards just got zapped every once in a while.
With ca sharing, the server is in charge of all the work, and the client just sits back and watches tv, so no bin flashing or card blocking/reprogramming needed. Its arguably better than ever before.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

said by the cerberus:

LOL those dishes are not just in memory, most of the hardware works for FTA, Bell and Dish Network and so it is being reused.

When DirecTV stopped working, what do you think I used my DirecTV dish for? Those adapters to mount a second LNB to those dishes were very popular for a while. I have two Bell dishes with two LNBs sitting on my basement floor. When I moved to my last place I never bothered to put them back up, and shortly after public card sharing pretty much disappeared.
said by the cerberus:

Are you that daft to think a card change somehow stopped piracy?
Like I said above every subscription tv ca can be shared online, and no provider can stop it so far....

Yup, it's still out there. It's just not the free for all it once was.

I had an original Nfusion, too. Those were the days...

True dat
@videotron.ca

True dat to Gone

Anon

to Gone
Yup.
Vomio
join:2008-04-01

Vomio to Gone

Member

to Gone
It's still pretty easy if you want to play pirate.
IKS is fairly cheap, servers are off-shore, the folks from the US usually watch Bell and Canadians watch Dish.

There are of course still the grey market activities too, but that tends to be just cross border friends and relatives supplying a billing address these days.

At the present time it would appear the cost/benefit ratio is too high to bother to stamp out cross border viewers.

I have a Shaw dish and subscription for the spouse.
It would be a cold day in Hell before I went with Rogers, and Bell is Bhell.

I have a motorized dish for my personal geekatainment, grabbing unencrypted broadcasts and feeds.

One of these days I might really upset the neighbours and stick up a tower for OTA.

Gone
Premium Member
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON

Gone

Premium Member

Yeah a friend of mine still does IKS. I don't do it for the same reasons you already described. My Shaw Direct account is also for the wife. It were up to me I'd put an antenna up on the roof and just watch off-air television. As it stands right now I can get everything out of the US with just a pair of rabbit ears so I'm pretty well covered.

Hmm
@videotron.ca

Hmm to hmm

Anon

to hmm
More on this from Quebecor Media:
»cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Can ··· 036.html

bits n pieces...

“It cannot be disputed that Bell ExpressVu was well aware that this was happening and that damages were being caused as a direct and immediate consequence of its failure to adequately secure its signal,” Silcoff wrote in his decision. ...

“This apparent ignorance ... and failure to respond to the situation resulted in a dramatic and exponential increase of the piracy level in 2002, and subsequently from 2003 until early in 2005,” Silcoff wrote. ...

“We are glad to see the Superior Court condemn Bell for resorting to illegal means that weaken its competitors and for having failed to meet its obligations to protect rather than undermine the integrity of the Quebec and Canadian broadcasting sector,” said Pierre Karl Péladeau, president and CEO of Quebecor, Quebecor Media and Sun Media Corp.

“Unfortunately, we once again find that Bell is willing to use any means necessary to reach its ends and put more money in its pocket,” Péladeau said. “It appears inconceivable that a company that benefited for decades from being a monopoly could have resorted to practices so detrimental to the rest of the broadcasting industry as to be condemned by law.” ...

Quebecor also condemned the fact, outlined in Tuesday’s judgment, that senior Bell managers knowingly communicated false data to the CRTC related to the piracy rate of its TV distribution system, while knowing full well the true extent of the problem.

“We must deplore such a lack of respect towards the laws and institutions that are supposed to protect our broadcasting system,” Péladeau said. “We wish for the CRTC to look into this matter and to take all appropriate measures under the circumstances.”
Vomio
join:2008-04-01

Vomio

Member

The more I think about this, the more I believe that the ruling is unjust.
It is after all standard practice in some circles to get people hooked.

Microsoft used this approach:
»articles.latimes.com/200 ··· opiracy9

You don't see Apple, IBM or FSF coming after them.........yet.

Of Course
@videotron.ca

Of Course

Anon

Everyone did/does this. Of course.

Bell, telus, videotron all advertized speed and B/W by how many movies and MP3's you could download before a legal method of music and movie downloads was even available to the people of Canada.

Of course it's unjust. Of course videotron itself is guilty of this.

The whole thing is a joke.

But... videotron/Quebecor didn't like losing the piracy war.

Ott_Cable
@teksavvy.com

Ott_Cable to hmm

Anon

to hmm
Does that mean the court also see that the "pipe" that uses unsecured or known broken method for content delivery is responsible some what?

Would this also have some interesting implications for the new copyright laws if the content is published on DVD/BD etc that use weak digital locks? Can the DVD, BD associations be sued?

Shrug
@videotron.ca

Shrug

Anon

Up to bell to challenge this...

But let's face it. Pay a million and walk away, or pay a few million to fight it...

Videotron says they themselves may appeal the verdict (although they won) because they want compensation in the tens of millions of dollars. Or was it hundreds of millions? They aren't happy with a million.
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

4 edits

the cerberus to Of Course

Member

to Of Course
said by Of Course :

Everyone did/does this. Of course.

Bell, telus, videotron all advertized speed and B/W by how many movies and MP3's you could download before a legal method of music and movie downloads was even available to the people of Canada.

Of course it's unjust. Of course videotron itself is guilty of this.

The whole thing is a joke.

But... videotron/Quebecor didn't like losing the piracy war.

Do you think EVERYTHING has a copyright?
They give you the benefit of the doubt that what you are downloading isnt infringed material/is fair use.
Just like FTA, you give the consumer the benefit of the doubt they are using it for legal purposes and not decrypting.

There seems to be some false assumption that these providers are guilty because SOMEONE ELSE hacked them/leaked key info.
said by Ott_Cable :

Would this also have some interesting implications for the new copyright laws if the content is published on DVD/BD etc that use weak digital locks? Can the DVD, BD associations be sued?

Exactly.
Why would companies be at fault because their vendors shitty encryption was hacked?

This whole thing is stupid, Bell PAYED MONEY for an encryption (Nagravision), Bell PAYED MONEY and used ECM's, Bell PAYED MONEY to sue hackers and the people who run ca servers and WON MONEY. Bell PAYED MONEY to sue anyone selling pre-modified equipment.
Bell MADE AN EFFORT to secure the streams. Bell DID NOT have unencrypted streams, but quite frankly how the hell does Videotron or the court have authority to say you need to? Its Bell that loses money and its Bell that sues to get it back

THIS IS THE EQUIVALENT OF BIG GAME PUBLISHERS (LIKE EA) SUING INDY DEVS FOR NOT USING DRM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OR THE MPAA/SOME BIG COMEDY CORPERATION POTENTIALLY SUING LOUIE CK FOR DISTRIBUTING HIS COMEDY SHOWS WITHOUT DRM

Its very very very scary that you can win this type of case in Canada.

The other thing to think about is HOW can Bell sue the hackers/ca server operators and win if bell is at fault for the signal being unsecure?

Logically these 2 things cannot happen, its either Bells fault or the people stealing/providing a way to steal Bell that are at fault. IT CANNOT BE BOTH.

Ott_Cable
@teksavvy.com

Ott_Cable

Anon

>Do you think EVERYTHING has a copyright?

Almost everything you typed or "created" have automatic copyright by default. Everything you and I typed here on DSLr are copyrighted by us the "authors" and "licensed" for DSLr to display/stored on their website.

FYI ToS for DSLr:
>dslreports.com users authorize dslreports.com to use, reproduce, transmit, store and display any user-supplied content (including message board postings and replies) for any purpose in any and all media.
the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

the cerberus

Member

said by Ott_Cable :

>Do you think EVERYTHING has a copyright?

Almost everything you typed or "created" have automatic copyright by default. Everything you and I typed here on DSLr are copyrighted by us the "authors" and "licensed" for DSLr to display/stored on their website.

FYI ToS for DSLr:
>dslreports.com users authorize dslreports.com to use, reproduce, transmit, store and display any user-supplied content (including message board postings and replies) for any purpose in any and all media.

That is a very dumb argument.
Look I can record a song, a home movie, anyone can. then I burn it to cd or dvd or bluray or give it to my friend off my server, that doesnt have a fucking copyright.
I think MOST PEOPLE know that when uploading to SOMEONE ELSES server things arent theres anymore, ever since that WHOLE BIG FIASCO with FACEBOOK when they tried to say they own everyones photos (which they do not because of public backlash).
Vomio
join:2008-04-01

Vomio

Member

Ott_Cable is right at least within countries that honour the Berne Convention.

Copyright is automatic you don't have to apply for it, although having a registered copyright may make enforcement easier.

Recommended reading:
»www.wipo.int/treaties/en ··· p/berne/