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the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

4 edits
reply to hmm

Re: Quebecor wins court ruling over Bell

Not that I like Bell or anything, but this is just illogical, its not Bell's fault Nagra got hacked, and they did change cards 2 times after trying ECM's (Electronic Counter Measures) on NagraVision 1 and 2.

said by Globe and Mail :

Bell TV failed 10 years ago to put in place measures to prevent aspects of the illegal decoding of its satellite signals despite its knowledge of the activities and its ability to put a stop to them.

Bell TV didnt exist 10 years ago, it was Bell ExpressVu and Dish Network Canada before that.

I'm not sure if this is Globe and Mails fault or the courts but decoding has nothing to do with this, its decrypting that's the issue.
In other words the issue is not DVB-S (the encoding), the issue is with NagraVision (the encryption).
"Illegal decoding" is just plain laughable. It just goes to show these people dont understand what they are reporting about.

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

They never made piracy easy either.

Making piracy easy would not involve investing in NagraVision and ECMs.

I guess they just didnt have the lawyers to fight this one.


hmm

@videotron.ca
It took only a download to fix whatever Bell tried to do. Everyone was using free BeV.

I still have the old boxes & old cards some place in the shed next to the dish.

Once they finally frigged people, people got rid of their basic package and went elsewhere. BeV wasn't worth keeping w/o all the free channels. Even Bell knew this.

the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

2 edits
said by hmm :

It took only a download to fix whatever Bell tried to do. Everyone was using free BeV.

I still have the old boxes & old cards some place in the shed next to the dish.

Once they finally frigged people, people got rid of their basic package and went elsewhere. BeV wasn't worth keeping w/o all the free channels. Even Bell knew this.

But every provider that was using Nagra1 and 2 at the time, ECM was standard procedure Nagra gave as "support" for their product, then every provider had to switch to 3 when "support" ended.

I would argue Nagra was at fault or whoever they are suing for hacking their cards in the first place.

If you actually look into the history, Bell just purchased this Dish Network Canada, and this Nagra thing wasnt even their choice in the first place.

Bell encrypted their streams, Dish Network chose the vendor Nagra, and every provider follows whatever the vendor says, unless they want to spend millions on new cards/and possibly receivers.

Currently the Nagra3 card isnt hacked, but like every subscription ca card, it can be shared, and things like this arent going to stop.

Maybe it will be hacked, maybe whatever encryption Rogers or Shaw Direct uses will be hacked, but its hardly the providers fault when these things happen.


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
reply to the cerberus
said by the cerberus:

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.
--
Watch my future television channel's public test broadcast!
»thecanadianpublic.com/live

the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

1 edit
said by milnoc:

said by the cerberus:

They did use NagraVision, so they can't possibly say they didnt attempt to secure their signal.

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.

Not really, key information about Nagravision was forced out/leaked that lead to cracks. It wasnt any specific providers fault.

Heres the story

There was a court case in Europe and in court, it was required as evidence, to provide some key information about how nagravision 2 worked in scrambling and securing the broadcasts.

The programmers of Nagravision 2 were told they had to comply and reveal how their system worked basically.

That is how Nagravision 2 became public knowledge and lead to the birth of all the companies that made "free TV" receivers.

Bell was caught in the middle of this so Nagra offered ECM's as support while they worked on the new ca, Nagravision3.

As for DirectTV they were hacked for a long time, what made it "end" was spending millions on a vendor switch which involved a card change and new receivers.


El Quintron
I dunno, lemme check my trollodex
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to milnoc
said by milnoc:

Except that this was Nagravision, one of the weakest satellite encryption schemes in existence. That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked. It was just so much easier to use Dish equipment, almost as if Nagravision wasn't even considered proper encryption at all.

A bit more information regarding this can be found here:

»www.wired.com/politics/security/ ··· Page=all

quote:
Christopher Tarnovsky feels vindicated. The software engineer and former satellite-TV pirate has been on the hot seat for five years, accused of helping his former employer, a Rupert Murdoch company, sabotage a rival to gain the top spot in the global pay-TV wars.

But two weeks ago a jury in the civil lawsuit against that employer, NDS Group, largely cleared the company -- and by extension Tarnovsky -- of piracy, finding NDS guilty of only a single incident of stealing satellite signals, for which Dish was awarded $1,500 in damages.

It's an extensive read, but basically, it states that Dish/Echo's main rivals assisted in hacking to weaken Dish.
--
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Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
reply to milnoc
said by milnoc:

That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked.

*coughHcardHUcardcough*


Spike
Premium
join:2008-05-16
Toronto, ON
said by Gone:

said by milnoc:

That's why DirectTV was rarely hacked.

*coughHcardHUcardcough*

IIRC someone leaked the details of the DirecTV encryption system internally as well... I believe they got jailed for it


milnoc

join:2001-03-05
H3B
kudos:2
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

*coughHcardHUcardcough*

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.
--
Watch my future television channel's public test broadcast!
»thecanadianpublic.com/live


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by milnoc:

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.

Bullshit. DirecTV was just as easy to hack, and was done *years* before Dish and BEV were. You still see plenty of DirecTV dishes on people's roofs in memory of those days.


True dat

@videotron.ca
Yup.

the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

1 edit
reply to Gone
said by Gone:

said by milnoc:

I didn't say it was impossible. But over the years, the most hacked system was Nagravision, simply because it was the easier system to hack. Pirates usually prefer to go down the quickest and easiest path to fame and fortune.

Bullshit. DirecTV was just as easy to hack, and was done *years* before Dish and BEV were. You still see plenty of DirecTV dishes on people's roofs in memory of those days.

LOL those dishes are not just in memory, most of the hardware works for FTA, Bell and Dish Network and so it is being reused.

I agree, neither satellite provider was easier to hack than the other, and both happened due to leaks.

None of this can be blamed on the provider for choosing the wrong encryption vendor, its entirely the vendor/hacker/leaker who is at fault.

said by hmm :

Videotron fixed theirs lickity-split. Bell giggled as they not only had the market for the most basic services with hacked and free channels, but they also knew people went to their boxes because the prices was affordable. 50$ versus 200$.

The whole market was based on piracy, Videotron lost.

Again, and I dont know why I am repeating this because you clearly arent listening, Bell did not just giggle, neither did Dish Network or DirectTV, every provider chose a path of ECM's before swapping out cards. STANDARD PROCEDURE!!!
They PAYED Nagra for the encryption and so "support" was given in the form of ECM's until the Nagra3 card was ready to be deployed.

DirectTV had to spend a ton of money switching card vendors and receivers entirely. Thats the only reason they got out earlier.

said by hmm :

But once bell was forced to upgrade the cards, people saw zero value in BeV. It just wasn't worth it, and switched to videotron.

Are you that daft to think a card change somehow stopped piracy?

Like I said above every subscription tv ca can be shared online, and no provider can stop it so far....

Ca sharing is arguably better than hacked cards or emu.
Emu needed to be patched with every ECM and hacked cards just got zapped every once in a while.
With ca sharing, the server is in charge of all the work, and the client just sits back and watches tv, so no bin flashing or card blocking/reprogramming needed. Its arguably better than ever before.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
said by the cerberus:

LOL those dishes are not just in memory, most of the hardware works for FTA, Bell and Dish Network and so it is being reused.

When DirecTV stopped working, what do you think I used my DirecTV dish for? Those adapters to mount a second LNB to those dishes were very popular for a while. I have two Bell dishes with two LNBs sitting on my basement floor. When I moved to my last place I never bothered to put them back up, and shortly after public card sharing pretty much disappeared.

said by the cerberus:

Are you that daft to think a card change somehow stopped piracy?
Like I said above every subscription tv ca can be shared online, and no provider can stop it so far....

Yup, it's still out there. It's just not the free for all it once was.

I had an original Nfusion, too. Those were the days...

Vomio

join:2008-04-01
Reviews:
·odynet
It's still pretty easy if you want to play pirate.
IKS is fairly cheap, servers are off-shore, the folks from the US usually watch Bell and Canadians watch Dish.

There are of course still the grey market activities too, but that tends to be just cross border friends and relatives supplying a billing address these days.

At the present time it would appear the cost/benefit ratio is too high to bother to stamp out cross border viewers.

I have a Shaw dish and subscription for the spouse.
It would be a cold day in Hell before I went with Rogers, and Bell is Bhell.

I have a motorized dish for my personal geekatainment, grabbing unencrypted broadcasts and feeds.

One of these days I might really upset the neighbours and stick up a tower for OTA.


Gone
Premium
join:2011-01-24
Fort Erie, ON
kudos:4
Yeah a friend of mine still does IKS. I don't do it for the same reasons you already described. My Shaw Direct account is also for the wife. It were up to me I'd put an antenna up on the roof and just watch off-air television. As it stands right now I can get everything out of the US with just a pair of rabbit ears so I'm pretty well covered.