 sm5w2
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON | How to get Bell to fix problems with POTS line? A relative in Windsor has had intermittent problems with their phone service since moving into their current house about 3 years ago. This problem has manifested itself as "scratchy" noise they hear on the phone and a loss of Bell dsl service. There has been about 4 or 5 service calls so far where the technician spends most of his time at the pole.
The most recent situation is that on the really hot days, their phones lose dial-tone around noon and it comes back by itself later in the evening. During this time when the phone is picked up, you hear static or scratchy sounds. Interesting thing is that internet connectivity is fine.
The copper telco line runs down a pole at the street and under their front yard for about 100 ft and then into the house.
It's been very dry and hot in Windsor over the past month or two, so I wouldn't expect this to be a water-related problem with any above-ground wires or equipment, but they do have an irrigation system so the soil might not be totally dry where the drop is running from the pole to the house.
What sort of equipment or device can they STRONGLY SUGGEST that the next Bell Tech use to discover what must obviously be a problem in the underground portion of the drop such that Bell runs a new line to fix this problem ONCE AND FOR ALL.
?????
Is this an issue that can I can stick-handle through the direct forum and FORCE BELL TO DISCOVER AND CORRECT any possible problem with the drop that they seem to want to avoid doing? |
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 DKSDamn Kidney StonesPremium,ExMod 2002
join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON
kudos:2 | said by sm5w2:Is this an issue that can I can stick-handle through the direct forum and FORCE BELL TO DISCOVER AND CORRECT any possible problem with the drop that they seem to want to avoid doing?
Sounds like a ground problem. Call 611 and insist the problem be fixed. They will likely find a spare pair and switch them.
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Need-based health care not greed-based health care. |
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Sounds like a bad buried service wire especially since you lose dial tone sometimes. If the tech finds no trouble them say that the city was mucking around by the easement and since then your line went bad. If he buys it then he would place a temp and start the process to get the drop replaced. |
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| reply to sm5w2
Sounds like a partial open/loose connection related to thermal expansion/contraction.
There is no specific device or equipment that can be used to detect non existant problems.
If we can't see the problem at the time, we can't fix it.
We CAN blindly change things and hope that solves the problem, but with performance numbers restricting us to less than 1hr 30mins per job, we don't have time to just play around. |
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sm5w2
join:2004-10-13
St Thomas, ON | reply to Anonymuss
Re: How to get Bell to fix problems with POTS line? > There is no specific device or equipment that can be used to detect non existant problems.
I thought there was a gizmo (reflectance meter?) that can tell you that the wire has a problem so-many-feet from the test point. ???
And why can't the drop be disconnected at both ends and then metered to ground to see if there's a low-resistance path to ground (indicating an insulation break) ???
And while the drop is disconnected at both ends, short the wires together at one end and then measure the loop resistance at the other end and see if it meets spec. ???
Why wouldn't it be normal or standard to do ANY of those things after, say, the 3'rd or 4'th call ?!?!?!
Or perhaps the line technicians have little to no understanding of basic electrical theory? |
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 Glen1These Are The Good Ol' Days.Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
kudos:7
 ·Bell Fibe
| reply to sm5w2
"Static" as it is called is one of the most difficult troubles on a telephone line. The trouble has to be there for a technician to find it. The meters that are used now can test the line and find the location of a "high resistance" open if it is used properly, however there could be more than one source of the issue. Keep calling and hopefully the trouble will be there when the technician arrives so that he can properly "sectionalize" the problem. I have seen static in handsets, protectors and even dsl ports just to name a few. Patience is required here...don't assume it is in the buried service wire just because it is there.
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My Canada includes Quebec.
Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies. |
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said by sm5w2:> There is no specific device or equipment that can be used to detect non existant problems.
I thought there was a gizmo (reflectance meter?) that can tell you that the wire has a problem so-many-feet from the test point. ???
You're probably thinking of a TDR (time-domain reflectometer), but I'm not sure if it will do exactly what you're thinking it will.
Besides not all techs have a meter capable of that test, only IPTV guys would.
Even those who do have the meter hardware capable of doing that, the TDR software app on the meter has been disabled by Bell in the firmware because they feel it's too advanced for us to be using and wouldn't understand it because it's not part of the training, or they never purchased it as part of the software package to the meter for the same reason, so that menu option is greyed out and you can't access it.
said by sm5w2:And why can't the drop be disconnected at both ends and then metered to ground to see if there's a low-resistance path to ground (indicating an insulation break) ???
This can be done without disconnecting the drop, and would measure the drop and the sections beyond. If the tech doesn't see anything when all the sections are connected together, he's not going to see anything on just the drop.
said by sm5w2:And while the drop is disconnected at both ends, short the wires together at one end and then measure the loop resistance at the other end and see if it meets spec. ???
This actually isn't a standard test, and there certainly isn't a spec for it, but I do this on ocassion when I suspect it is needed to check for a partial open.
Find out the gauge of copper inside the drop, measure the drop length, look up online the ohms per foot reading for that gauge, times it by how many feet the drop is, then double it for the round trip.
Take that number down, and the next time a tech is out, see if he's willing to try looking for a short on the far end that matches near the number you've got.
said by sm5w2:Why wouldn't it be normal or standard to do ANY of those things after, say, the 3'rd or 4'th call ?!?!?!
Have your calls been towards the end of the day? Try booking a morning call so the tech isn't thinking about rushing to get home.
said by sm5w2:Or perhaps the line technicians have little to no understanding of basic electrical theory?
In all honesty, most don't. Alot of guys can't even spell. |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
1 edit | reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:Is this an issue that can I can stick-handle through the direct forum and FORCE BELL TO DISCOVER AND CORRECT any possible problem with the drop that they seem to want to avoid doing?
1. Intermittent problems are always the hardest to fix.
2. Bell’s repair within 3 or 4 days means Bell won’t show up before the problem evaporates (no truer word to use here).
With reference to the buried drop; Bell can run a temporary line on the ground or run an aerial cable to prove whether the drop is an issue.
If the problem goes away it’s the drop if it doesn't, the buried drop can be reconnected and the new (temporary) line removed.
We had a similar issue here a few years ago. The line would hiss or crackle and when at its worst would be dead. Problem was worst after rain or heavy dew. Phone was usually great at the hottest part of the day. The problem took close to 9 months to fix. When a tech showed up the problem wasn't there.
Finally an arrangement was made for Bell to show up within a couple of hours of a call. 2 full sized vans showed up and they took down the drop and replaced it. Problem solved.
Here is the anatomy of my problem; time line is not exact.
Many years ago Bell replaced the aerial cable on poles in the alley behind our house. To do that, any clamps (span clamps) that attach to the strand are removed whether for Bell, Cogeco etc. so the new cable can be lashed into place. About 7 years after that there would be periodic crackles on the phone when really windy. Over the next year, the problem got worse but service not interrupted. Internet was good. Called Bell; no resolution.
Over the last 9 months before the phone service was repaired; it was a crap shoot as to whether the phone would work; Internet was good, never slow.
When 2 Bell techs came that very rainy day to replace the drop (a 6 pair areal drop) and corrected the problem I asked what caused the problem. Their response was obviously a defective drop.
To slice through this, the 3 of us stretched the old drop down the sidewalk and located the cause. When the span clamp was re-installed for our home, the 6 pair was pinched between the clamp and the strand. Rain or heavy dew was causing electrolysis between the zinc plating (galvanizing) and the copper conductors.
Unless you can get Bell to the home when the problem exists, it may take months to be resolved.
Good luck.
Rick
Edit: one of these days I will always spell aerial properly. |
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| reply to sm5w2
said by sm5w2:I thought there was a gizmo (reflectance meter?) that can tell you that the wire has a problem so-many-feet from the test point. ??? The problem with TDR and most other troubleshooting tools/techniques is that none of them will reliably locate intermittent problems while they are absent if the line goes back within specs between occurences.
That's what makes intermittent problems so troublesome. |
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Glen1These Are The Good Ol' Days.Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-24
GTA Canada
kudos:7 Reviews:
·Bell Fibe
| reply to sm5w2
Many times what I will do is "replace something" on a frequent trouble like this. I would replace the outside wire or "drop" on spec or the cable pair...something that I know could cause the trouble. Hopefully doing so will fix the trouble but it is always guess work on where the trouble might be. When it is in the buried service wire, changing the pair or splitting the pair might be the only way to go...otherwise now is the best time to dig up the ground, before the frost sets in. The trouble has to be "proven" first...located exactly before action can be taken. Some techs will give a customer their cell number so they can call them directly and try to come over as soon as the trouble reappears...tough call.
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My Canada includes Quebec.
Disclaimer: If I express an opinion, it is my own opinion, not that of Bell or its related companies. |
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Look, this is not rocket science we're dealing with here. The OP described the plant as being aerial fed to buried service wire, so if the techs that came before didn't find any trouble they should of changed either the feeder, distribution, or buried service wire pair (or place a temp). If they didn't do anything then obviously the trouble will never get fixed or identified. A NID should be installed and the client can check for dial tone/static and prove if the trouble is inside the house or outside when the trouble occurs. If they have ndt or static when they plug a set into the nid then borrow a known good set from someone just to be absolutely sure there is indeed trouble outside and not trouble with the set. |
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| Buried wire in an aerial environment for cosmetic reasons is considered CPE, and is the customers responsibility, so let's get a NID on that pole! |
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| said by Anonymuss :Buried wire in an aerial environment for cosmetic reasons is considered CPE, and is the customers responsibility, so let's get a NID on that pole!
What's next? Customers hooking up extension cords and inside wire to the pole? No. The NID must be grounded and the only pratical way to ground a pole mounted nid would be to install a grounding rod but no tech is going to do that. They will just replace the bsw and finish the job. |
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RickStepPremium
join:2002-11-25
Hamilton, ON
kudos:1
4 edits | reply to sm5w2
said by Glen1:Many times what I will do is "replace something" on a frequent trouble like this. I would replace the outside wire or "drop" on spec or the cable pair...something that I know could cause the trouble. Hopefully doing so . . .
I agree with Glen1.
If you wait to catch / trap an intermittent problem it can take months.
Once you get into the second service call (unresolved) and the information from the customer is “manifested itself as "scratchy" noise they hear on the phone and a loss of Bell dsl service”; the best way to resolve the issue is to eliminate a potential issue by doing something.
If there are (hypothetically) 20 possible causes; checking, changing or replacing 1, 2 or 3; devices and wiring; the problem has to be within the area that has not been checked or changed out.
Doing nothing on 4 – 5 service calls resolves nothing and increases Bell’s end costs because Bell has to resolve the problem eventually.
said by llort :said by Anonymuss :Buried wire in an aerial environment for cosmetic reasons is considered CPE, and is the customers responsibility, so let's get a NID on that pole!
What's next? Customers hooking up extension cords and inside wire to the pole? No. The NID must be grounded and the only pratical way to ground a pole mounted nid would be to install a grounding rod but no tech is going to do that. They will just replace the bsw and finish the job. The Bell system has some of the best grounds and the strand to which the cable is lashed is well grounded. The ground wire connected to the strand could be run down the pole to a pole mounted NID.
Bell could also use 2 pair aerial drop with messenger down the side if the pole to a NID and use the messenger as a ground.
Rick
Edits:
Uploaded a .png image (several times) and for whatever reason it shows a blank area. Image removed. |
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1 edit | I am having these same issues for about 5 years now.
Funny thing last year it worked great up until 2 months ago. Trouble is (just like yours), when they come to my home, the lines have time to dry out.
Two days ago the problems started when I watered my lawn.
Today, problems again after it rained.
So far the technicians have never been able to solve the problem. One tech went as far as to say that the lines in the area are old, just live with it.
I will post my solution here if they figure it out.
By the way, my phone is also noisy but my internet connection is very poor when the problem occurs.
Today they are sending yet another tech guy. We will see if they have the troubleshooting skills to figure this one out. |
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| Everything seems loused up in Ottawa. |
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| reply to Anonymuss
Oh right only 1 30min. hahaha... never heard of anyone at bell fired for taking the time to fix the job.
line is half open, can be found if the tech cares to follow up with the customer.
WTF. |
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ha ha ha rushing home. what are you doing on a pole in the dark anyway? ha hah haha ha |
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Reviews:
 ·voip.ms
| reply to ctownsend
said by ctownsend:I am having these same issues for about 5 years now.
Sorry I can't help :-( At least I can offer that I had the exact same issues you are describing. No problems for over ten years then all of a sudden POTS was unreliable and internet speeds were terrible. One of the symptoms was my line would ring every once in a while for no reason. The problem was intermittent and mostly depended on rain.
The first technician climbed the pole and did something. The problem was fixed.
A second problem occurred within a week. The line noise was so bad that the Bell agent taking the information for the ticket could barely hear me. This made it easy to capture exactly what was happening. The problem was intermittent so I considered myself lucky!?
The second technician found that the line had been sliced, discoloured, and causing a short. Looked like a lightning strike or possibly a friction burn ... I dunno. A new line fixed the issue.
In the end Bell did a fantastic job finding and fixing the problems. After each support call Bell showed up the next day. I felt like royalty  |
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