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markofmayhem
Why not now?
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join:2004-04-08
Pittsburgh, PA
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reply to Maxo

Re: Stallman on Valve+GNU/Linux

said by Maxo:

said by »www.gnu.org/philosophy/nonfree-games.html :

Thus, in direct practical terms, this development can do both harm and good. It might encourage GNU/Linux users to install these games, and it might encourage users of the games to replace Windows with GNU/Linux. My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm. But there is also an indirect effect: what does the use of these games teach people in our community?

Any GNU/Linux distro that comes with software to offer these games will teach users that the point is not freedom. Nonfree software in GNU/Linux distros already works against the goal of freedom. Adding these games to a distro would augment that effect.

No worries, these games require non-free graphics drivers by the people RSM wants removed from his LiGNUx world anyway.

Thank God for Linux, because GNU/Linux has too many rules...
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DannyZ
Gentoo Fanboy
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join:2003-01-29
Erie, PA
said by markofmayhem:

Thank God for Linux, because GNU/Linux has too many rules...

I know right. I'm tired of hearing about OS politics when I just want my damn Steam games.
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rexbinary
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reply to markofmayhem
said by markofmayhem:

Thank God for Linux, because GNU/Linux has too many rules...

Linux and GNU/Linux are one in the same. Richard Stallman is just saying he would like to see everyone only run free software, but it's not a rule.
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markofmayhem
Why not now?
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Pittsburgh, PA
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said by rexbinary:

said by markofmayhem:

Thank God for Linux, because GNU/Linux has too many rules...

Linux and GNU/Linux are one in the same. Richard Stallman is just saying he would like to see everyone only run free software, but it's not a rule.

GNU/Linux is a term Richard Stallman invented. Have you not read "Do you call it Linux by mistake?"

said by Richard Stallman :

Although the developers of Linux, the kernel, are contributing to the free software community, many of them do not care about freedom. People who think the whole system is Linux tend to get confused and assign to those developers a role in the history of our community which they did not actually play. Then they give inordinate weight to those developers' views.
Calling the system GNU/Linux recognizes the role that our idealism played in building our community, and helps the public recognize the practical importance of these ideals.

I don't mind closed source software on my computer. I prefer open source. I volunteer time and effort to open source projects. I use Linux, because according to GNU, I "don't care about freedom".

Look at the length of that link! SOLELY dedicated to a name REJECTED by the public. LiGNUx is the best part...

You know what else will be rejected by the public?

said by Richard Stallman :

If you want to promote freedom, please take care not to talk about the availability of these games [Valve's] on GNU/Linux as support for our cause. Instead you could tell people about the Liberated Pixel Cup free game contest, the Free Game Dev Forum, and the LibrePlanet Gaming Collective's free gaming night.

You got it. But I will be shouting from the mountains that these games look to be available soon on Linux.
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rexbinary
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said by markofmayhem:

said by rexbinary:

said by markofmayhem:

Thank God for Linux, because GNU/Linux has too many rules...

Linux and GNU/Linux are one in the same. Richard Stallman is just saying he would like to see everyone only run free software, but it's not a rule.

GNU/Linux is a term Richard Stallman invented. Have you not read "Do you call it Linux by mistake?"

Yes, and many of his books and writings. What you call Linux, and what he calls GNU/Linux is still the exact same thing. The 'rules' don't change with the name.
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markofmayhem
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said by rexbinary:

Yes, and many of his books and writings. What you call Linux, and what he calls GNU/Linux is still the exact same thing. The 'rules' don't change with the name.

Just the religion, my ultimate point, and the 'rules' that exist to be kosher with that religion.

Valve's porting of Steam and Source games is celebrated in forums where Ubuntu is called Linux. It is being questioned and "take care not to talk about the availability" in the GNU/Linux world. Yes, there are rules, and Valve has violated them which is why Profit tells us we should not speak of Valve; do not let others know they may be coming.

The underlying "point" of GNU is agreeable, the religion built around it including "truth crusades" is damaging.

The influx of talent to provide upstream code to projects such as X, OpenGL, MySQL, and others to provide a stable environment and API to smoothly run a hardware intensive action such as Left for Dead should be invited, not turned away with Quaker styled requests for silence. Let Valve come, take from their efforts and provide for all. Keep instilling Open Source initiatives in PARALLEL; end it being a barrier.
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FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to rexbinary
said by rexbinary:

What you call Linux, and what he calls GNU/Linux is still the exact same thing. The 'rules' don't change with the name.

Exactly.

The 'rules' (if one wants to use that term) are dictated by the license(s) used, regardless of name.


El Quintron
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reply to markofmayhem
said by markofmayhem:

Just the religion, my ultimate point, and the 'rules' that exist to be kosher with that religion.

My freedom "of" religion includes from "from" religion even when that religion is GNU/Linux.

There certainly are good points about "GNU" but we shouldn't be exchanging one dogma for another, and realistically what would Stallman prefer? That I get to play Valve games on Linux, which keeps me using Linux, or that I play Valve on Windows, the latter is actually worse for the cause (if we can call it that) all around.
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rexbinary
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said by El Quintron:

There certainly are good points about "GNU" but we shouldn't be exchanging one dogma for another, and realistically what would Stallman prefer? That I get to play Valve games on Linux, which keeps me using Linux, or that I play Valve on Windows, the latter is actually worse for the cause (if we can call it that) all around.

That's basically what he said.

However, if you're going to use these games, you're better off using them on GNU/Linux rather than on Microsoft Windows. At least you avoid the harm to your freedom that Windows would do.
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El Quintron
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said by rexbinary:

That's basically what he said.

However, if you're going to use these games, you're better off using them on GNU/Linux rather than on Microsoft Windows. At least you avoid the harm to your freedom that Windows would do.

I should have probably read further into the link.

It's a bit silly in this case for him to preach a pragmatic position from one side of his mouth, and an idealistic one from the other, all the while maintaining the idealistic one is the better of the two.
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Maxo
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I was actually happy to see him look at the issue from a viewpoint other than staunch opposition of all things not free software.


markofmayhem
Why not now?
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said by Maxo:

I was actually happy to see him look at the issue from a viewpoint other than staunch opposition of all things not free software.

His passive-aggressive undertone still shines through, however.

Thus, in direct practical terms, this development can do both harm and good. It might encourage GNU/Linux users to install these games, and it might encourage users of the games to replace Windows with GNU/Linux. My guess is that the direct good effect will be bigger than the direct harm. But there is also an indirect effect: what does the use of these games teach people in our community?

Any GNU/Linux distro that comes with software to offer these games will teach users that the point is not freedom. Nonfree software in GNU/Linux distros already works against the goal of freedom. Adding these games to a distro would augment that effect.

If you want to promote freedom, please take care not to talk about the availability of these games on GNU/Linux as support for our cause.

Outsiders may bring unwanted influence, speak not of them.

Open source, closed community. I've mentioned this before, it irks me.

Counter point:
These games will come from a closed-off environment, where freedom was stifled. They may be naive to software freedom and a bit hostile due to years of oppression. Be kind and firm accepting them with open arms while displaying what software freedom benefits exist. The human mind is not a container to be filled, rather, it is a fire that requires kindling. An open and accepting community fosters involvement and return.
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El Quintron
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reply to Maxo
said by Maxo:

I was actually happy to see him look at the issue from a viewpoint other than staunch opposition of all things not free software.

He can't ignore all the positive changes supported gaming would bring to Linux... there would be a massive influx of programming resources overnight.
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A non emous

@verizon.net
He'll be ok as long as they call it GNU/Steam

Kearnstd
Space Elf
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join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ
kudos:1
reply to El Quintron
said by El Quintron:

said by Maxo:

I was actually happy to see him look at the issue from a viewpoint other than staunch opposition of all things not free software.

He can't ignore all the positive changes supported gaming would bring to Linux... there would be a massive influx of programming resources overnight.

And certainly an influx of users, I know of plenty of people who would ditch the high cost of windows and go Linux if Linux would play their games without any BSing around with emulation.

I know if I could play AAA titles like WoW, HLseries, Mass Effect series, etc all natively under linux I would not even have a HD partition with Windows... Because my other hobby(CG modeling in Blender) is completely native in Linux.
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me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO
reply to El Quintron
said by El Quintron:

said by Maxo:

I was actually happy to see him look at the issue from a viewpoint other than staunch opposition of all things not free software.

He can't ignore all the positive changes supported gaming would bring to Linux... there would be a massive influx of programming resources overnight.

I'm glad hes not ignoring them, only a fool would. I would switch to linux completely IF all my games were on it. But heck the source modders(which make up the majority of valve employees) will love this, granted its hard not to like developing stuff on an open platform as opposed to a closed platform.

And as a cool point of interest it seems valve will be using qt to make their modding tools and steam portal on linux.


El Quintron
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said by me1212:

And as a cool point of interest it seems valve will be using qt to make their modding tools and steam portal on linux.

Thanks for letting me know that, with the recent sale of Nokia it's nice to see that QT may have some other backers in the wings.
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me1212

join:2008-11-20
Pleasant Hill, MO

1 recommendation

Click for full size
Heres one pic i've seen regarding it if anyone wants to see it.