Topic '[Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!' in forum 'Scam and Phishbusters' - dslreports.com

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 16 May 2013 09:24:37 EDT

anon posted : I ordered at Miniinthebox a few months ago (I ordered a Darth Vader iPhone case) and it arrived a bit late, but other than that I have no complaints. I didn't have to pay extra, and the case was in perfect condition (FYI I'm from Belgium and I paid about €2,50 for the case, free shipping, no insurance against loss). My second and third package are on their way now and I'll post again when they arrive to say if my experience has changed, but for now I haven't had any negative experiences.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 16 May 2013 01:18:34 EDT

Claire posted : your advise and experience told us : Think twice when buy things from lightinthebox.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:14:31 EDT

Snowy posted :

said by LITBreply :

Dear Daphne,

Thank you for sharing your shopping experience with us! We want to give you our most sincere apologies for not meeting your expectations while shopping at LightInTheBox.com. Please contact us with your order number at feedback[at]lightinthebox[dot]com, so we can solve this problem for you as soon as possible.

Customer satisfaction is our #1 priority, we hope you could give us another chance to meet your shopping expectations!

Thank you,

LightInTheBox.com

Of all the posts in this thread/forum that say LightInTheBox.com has terrible customer service this post is the most convincing.
LightInTheBox.com posting a reply that says "contact us" is bullshit, not customer service.
Do they actually believe that people posting here haven't already tried contacting them?

Why does "Daphne" need to contact you if you are so concerned?
*If* you really cared you'd have used the contact info she supplied to contact her.

pop quiz time:
What does a pissed-off customer want?
1. A LightInTheBox.com "most sincere apologies"
2. A LightInTheBox.com email/phone call

Here'a a clue LightInTheBox.com
It isn't No.1

said by DaphneKM :

DO NOT BUY AT MINI IN THE BOX!!
Order # 1301201103407233
I made the payment and it was confirmed by Mini in the Box on January 20.
On Feb. 17 they warned it would have an item out of stock and they would refund it, but they didn´t. I sent several emails requesting the company's position regarding the cancelation and sending the order and got no return.
Yesterday, to my surprise, I saw that the order was canceled without even sending me an email. How do I get my money back PLUS the 6.38% IOF (tax) credit card back? Nobody answered nothing ... absurd!
And the other order (No. 1301201003407048) they did not send tracking code and also had a product out of stock that they didn´t give me back the money. I just hope this order arrives.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:21 EDT

anon posted : Dear Customer,

Thank you for sharing your shopping experience with us! We want to give you our most sincere apologies for not meeting your expectations while shopping at LightInTheBox.com. Please contact us with your order number at feedback[at]lightinthebox[dot]com, so we can solve this problem for you as soon as possible.

Customer satisfaction is our #1 priority, we hope you could give us another chance to meet your shopping expectations!

Thank you,

LightInTheBox.com

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 06:28:18 EDT

anon posted : Dear Daphne,

Thank you for sharing your shopping experience with us! We want to give you our most sincere apologies for not meeting your expectations while shopping at LightInTheBox.com. Please contact us with your order number at feedback[at]lightinthebox[dot]com, so we can solve this problem for you as soon as possible.

Customer satisfaction is our #1 priority, we hope you could give us another chance to meet your shopping expectations!

Thank you,

LightInTheBox.com

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 06:34:20 EDT

anon posted : DO NOT BUY AT MINI IN THE BOX!!
Order # 1301201103407233
I made the payment and it was confirmed by Mini in the Box on January 20.
On Feb. 17 they warned it would have an item out of stock and they would refund it, but they didn´t. I sent several emails requesting the company's position regarding the cancelation and sending the order and got no return.
Yesterday, to my surprise, I saw that the order was canceled without even sending me an email. How do I get my money back PLUS the 6.38% IOF (tax) credit card back? Nobody answered nothing ... absurd!
And the other order (No. 1301201003407048) they did not send tracking code and also had a product out of stock that they didn´t give me back the money. I just hope this order arrives.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:16:42 EDT

anon posted : Here is a transcript of my Live Chat with "Nancy" (Yeah right) from LightIntheBox (also Miniinthebox). The chat transcript speaks for itself. LOL!

info: Please wait for a site operator to respond. In some occasions, our operators are chating with 8 to 10 customers at the same time. You may have to wait half a minute for a reply. Thanks for your patience.
info: You are now chatting with 'Nancy'
Nancy: Welcome to Lightinthebox.com! How may I assist you today? (Please be noted that this chat is for presales issue only)
Nancy: hi Jonathan
Jonathan: Are you guys associated with Mininthebox?
Nancy: yes, we are
Jonathan: OK. Well. I just called the (845) number in Florida and the guy who answered the phone was very unprofessional. He didn't say "Minibox in his answering of phone and when I asked whether I was calling Minibox, he said, "SURE!"
Nancy: nope
Nancy: he is fake
Nancy: we have no hotline
Nancy: we are based in China also
Jonathan: well. I purchased a product online through Mininthebox and it is past the 20 day mark and have not received it. I was sent a tracking number but have no way of tracking since I don't know which shipping provider was used. I can't login to my account. Very frustrating. The domain name I purchased the lighter was »www.miniinthebox.com/
Nancy: Sorry for the trouble caused. I will try my best to help you although my authority is limited within pre-sales.
Nancy: Let me guide you to contact customer service team on our site step by step RIGHT NOW, they are in charge of after sales issues. So they can help you solve your problem ASAP. Is this ok for you?
Jonathan: Yes, please.
Nancy: Please follow the steps:
Nancy: 1. Please click "My Orders" to sign in your account
Nancy: 2. Click your order number or "view details"
Nancy: 3 Then you will get into your order detail page. In this page you will find a link of"ask about customs duties" in blue color just under the shipping address
Nancy: 4. Please click on the link to fill in the blank with all your requests and inquires in details.
Nancy: Please don't forget to click Next to Submit and Confirm the ticket.thanks
Jonathan: Ok. I can't login to my account.
Nancy: you can apply a new one to log in
Jonathan: I have tried that but can't login because I am using the same email address.
Nancy: i mean you can apply a new password to log in
Jonathan: I tried that too but the new password doesn't work!!!
Jonathan: This feels like a scam.
Nancy: can you tell me your email and new password plz?
Nancy: i will help you try
Jonathan: [Removed email]
Jonathan: GTAo0
Nancy: thank you
Nancy: Hang on a second please. I will check for you right now.
Nancy: i am so sorry it is now valid
Nancy: i have applied a new one for you
Nancy: it has been sent to your mail
Nancy: kindly check it plz
Jonathan: Nothing in my inbox. Can't you just tell me pasword now?
Nancy: i am so sorry it is sent by system not us
Nancy: i cannot check it
Nancy: :(
Jonathan: Got email. New passowrd doesn't work. You guys are good. This scam is very smooth. Thank god I din't spend a lot of mooney.
Nancy: it will work
Nancy: liyuan@lightinthebox.com
Nancy: can you forward the mail you got plz?
Nancy: i will help you check the reason
Jonathan: ok
Nancy: thank you
Jonathan: just sent
Nancy: thank you
Nancy: one sec plz
Nancy: 123456
Nancy: this is your new password
Nancy: »www.miniinthebox.com/index.php?m···oginLink
Nancy: you can click this link and log in now
Jonathan: This is bullshit. It doesn't work.
Nancy: i have logged in to your account
Nancy: it is wrok
Nancy: are you trying in mini site?
Jonathan: NO IT DOES NOT WORK!!!
Jonathan: I just clicked on the link you sent me.
Jonathan: If you are on the site, then tell me what item I purchased.
Nancy: okay
Nancy: »www.miniinthebox.com/honest-bcz0···060.html
Nancy: Quantity:1
Nancy: Cost: USD $ 8.19
Nancy: ORDER NUMBER: 1301292103546529
Jonathan: Not sure what to say. I can't login to the account on my end. If this isn't a scam then at best you guys have not so good customer service
Nancy: it may caused by your browser
Jonathan: Why can't I live chat with someone who isn't in pre-sales?
Nancy: you may change to another one and try
Jonathan: I have tried multiple browers.
Nancy: really sorry for that
Nancy: maybe you can try it later
Nancy: i am so sorry i am really not sure the reason
Nancy: since i have checked, it is normal on our side
Jonathan: ok. whatever you say. i will have to chalk this one up to a learning experience. by the way, there are tons of google search results that say you guys are a scam. You're good at what you do. You are good at scammiing people. Not something I would be very proud of but at least you are very good at something. probably the best I have seen. congratulations.
Jonathan: gagdets galore?
Nancy: we are really sorry for any trouble
Nancy: but we will not cheat any customers
Jonathan: LOL!!! Have a great life!!!

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:21:39 EDT

tdumaine posted : I myself love how people expect to get a rocking deal (item is normally $49.99 at legit stores, but 1.99 at this place) and it doesnt happen or they lose money or the order takes forever.

People dont read and then wonder and complain. Buyer beware

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:28:22 EDT

DC DSL posted : Site like Amazon.fr and other big players are intended for consumers within the borders of a particular country or the EU. There is no need for them to provide VAT/duties/other impex information as all of the people making purchases there know most of it off the tops of their heads. If ordering a gift for someone in another country from a global player like Amazon, they'll usually fulfill from their location closest to the recipient (quite probably in that country) and completely circumvent duties. You can obtain a pretty-close estimate of duties for shipping patterns that get a lot of traffic from Amazon if you contact customer service (though you may have to hunt down someone who's higher up in the food chain).

I have had a number of clients who did impex with Europe and Asia. Every single one of the Euro companies, and the reputable/better known Asian ones could provide duties, etc., to the penny, in advance. A vendor can obtain the information. If they claim they cannot, they are either being lazy or are scammers.
--
"Dance like the photo isn't being tagged; love like you've never been unfriended; and tweet like nobody is following."

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 18:53:43 EDT

Scifience posted :

said by DC DSL:

While I agree with you that it would be wonderful if things worked this way, they simply don't. I order from international merchants on a regular basis, and I've never seen anything more than a fine-print disclosure about purchases potentially being subject to government-assessed import duties and taxes. This goes for everyone from Amazon.fr and Yoox to eBay sellers.

As an example, take a look at Amazon's information about international shipping. Far from providing any estimate of costs, it is little more than a standard disclaimer (emphasis added):

said by Amazon :

The recipient is the importer of record and must comply with all laws and regulations of the destination country. Orders shipped outside of the United States may be subject to import taxes, customs duties and fees levied by the destination country. The recipient of an international shipment may be subject to such import taxes, customs duties and fees, which are levied once a shipment reaches the recipient's country. Additional charges for customs clearance must be borne by the recipient; we have no control over these charges and can't predict what they may be. Customs policies vary widely from country to country; you should contact your local customs office for more information. When customs clearance procedures are required, it can cause delays beyond our original delivery estimates.

»www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/···01119100

I've also done six-figure orders from China for work, and our company always done the estimate of import costs. The vast majority of international trade is priced under FOB terms, which absolutely do not include VAT/duties/etc.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 12:56:48 EDT

DC DSL posted : Notify your cc and get your money back that way.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 12:40:07 EDT

anon posted : I ordered 2 "large" coats for my dogs. When I received them they were so small that they would not have fit my cats. Since the Mini company only gives you 7 days to return the items, I started immediately trying to get them returned. But their website says that they have no record of my purchase (I have record of THEM taking my money) And there is no phone # so I would have even the slightest chance of talking to a human. DO NOT BUY FROM THIS COMPANY :mad:

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 20:35:49 EDT

DC DSL posted :

said by Scifience:

Honestly, the only people that seem to have a problem with Light in the Box and think it is a "scam" are those who don't pay attention to their location or are simply ignorant of the realities of global trade and thus have no business ordering from foreign merchants...

No. No merchant that is shipping goods internationally as part of their business model has any excuse to not know at least the approximate cost of duties and other impex fees. It is the *merchant's* sole responsibility to not only disclose that an order is likely subject to them, once the shipping address is known the cost can be calculated and presented. These folks, along with countless others, do not provide the information because it would kill sales if the cost works out to be the same or more as ordering from Amazon or some other local vendor.
--
"Dance like the photo isn't being tagged; love like you've never been unfriended; and tweet like nobody is following."

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:35:34 EDT

anon posted : I have ordered 4 times (12 V, LED bulbs). My experience is not bad. They are providing reasonable quality at a very low price. Yes, it takes a long time to receive stuff from China with their free shipping policy. But they have always been responsive to my queries.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:06:21 EDT

Scifience posted :

said by unhappy :

:mad: placed a order worth $53, and had to pay UPS at delirevence an extra $36, for tax and handling fee. Some 70% extra. Would call this a scam.

Complain to the government, who assessed the duty on your shipment, not to Light in the Box. No matter what international merchant you order from, this will be an issue.

Honestly, the only people that seem to have a problem with Light in the Box and think it is a "scam" are those who don't pay attention to their location or are simply ignorant of the realities of global trade and thus have no business ordering from foreign merchants...

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 08:52:23 EDT

anon posted : :mad: placed a order worth $53, and had to pay UPS at delirevence an extra $36, for tax and handling fee. Some 70% extra. Would call this a scam.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:03:24 EDT

Phoenix22 posted :

said by Quackers :

I can beat one of your contributors, but NOT about faults in the order or the product. I ordered some LED Bulbs at reasonable prices. They arrived safely and functioned OK. But the import duty and IVA/Vat added more than 50% to the price I paid for the bulbs.
I agree with a previous correspondent. The INDICATED cost turns out to be nothing like the actual. No more from China, cheaper nearer home!! :huh:

not exactly ...itz more what/whom......not where..........my 1.99cent wireless headphones work great..........i found them new from a hong kong merchant on ebay...........here in the conus they sell for 49.95 all day.......i'd provide a link........but this is not a catalog forum for ebay.........i've since bought six pair...............great stuff/great price........if i offended........xin loi (sorry)
--
101ST ABN Div. (AirAssault) "Rendezvous With Destiny!" "Night Stalkers/Phoenix Flight" For Buddy...who lived it! Whiskey for my men and beer for my horses! H.A.L.O!, 5th Grp., MACV SOG, 160TH AVN SOG, Death From Above, VFW, AmLegion

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:04:44 EDT

anon posted : I can beat one of your contributors, but NOT about faults in the order or the product. I ordered some LED Bulbs at reasonable prices. They arrived safely and functioned OK. But the import duty and IVA/Vat added more than 50% to the price I paid for the bulbs.
I agree with a previous correspondent. The INDICATED cost turns out to be nothing like the actual. No more from China, cheaper nearer home!! :huh:

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Mon, 04 Feb 2013 18:45:49 EDT

anon posted : Although the customer is warned explicitly about the number of days from order date to product delivery, there is no excuse for that length of time. My order arrived 31 days from being received. Merchandise from like locations can be had in two weeks or less.

The stylus which I ordered did not work with my iPad or iPhone devices. There is no provision for phone calls to the merchant. All in all, it's a toxic experience, ordering from MiniinTheBox. And now I'm informed not to reply to this e-mail that wants my opinion? HA, what a fiasco.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Sun, 03 Feb 2013 13:23:10 EDT

Scifience posted : The company is legit, at least so far as any business dealing in cheap knock-off products and plastic crap can be. They are based in China, shipping can be slow as a result, and of course import duties could be assessed by your own country. The customer service is worthless in general, but that's par for the course in China.

But I have placed several orders for small things, and everything has showed up eventually. It's not an outright scam, though the quality of the products sold is often questionable (duh, that's why they're so cheap).

Not to excuse it, but you'll get equally abysmal customer service dealing with even definitely-legitimate, big-name mainland Chinese businesses: I can't count even begin to count the number of times China Eastern or Air China has screwed up one of my domestic tickets, often taking ~6 months or more to refund.

Edit: As a tip, if you can write in Chinese or have a friend who can, I've had much faster replies to inquiries in Chinese than English.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box IS NOT a scam!

Fri, 01 Feb 2013 00:18:29 EDT

Umitencho posted :

said by happycustomr :

I have to say I was really worried about the order I placed with MiniInTheBox.com after seeing these types of posts but I couldn't be more happy with my order. I ordered 4 phone cases on 1/20/13 and received them in the mail yesterday. I paid about $11 total for all 4 including shipping. They said they would arrive within 10-20 business days so it was much faster than expected. The cases are all in new condition and I'm very happy with my order. I'll definitely continue ordering from them. The only unexpected thing was an international tax/duty that was charged to my card after the fact for about $2 so it wasn't a big deal. I'm satisfied and it's DEFINITELY NOT A SCAM.

Can you provide pictures of said items? Your user name makes me think you are a shill.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box IS NOT a scam!

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:40:14 EDT

anon posted : I have to say I was really worried about the order I placed with MiniInTheBox.com after seeing these types of posts but I couldn't be more happy with my order. I ordered 4 phone cases on 1/20/13 and received them in the mail yesterday. I paid about $11 total for all 4 including shipping. They said they would arrive within 10-20 business days so it was much faster than expected. The cases are all in new condition and I'm very happy with my order. I'll definitely continue ordering from them. The only unexpected thing was an international tax/duty that was charged to my card after the fact for about $2 so it wasn't a big deal. I'm satisfied and it's DEFINITELY NOT A SCAM.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:52:31 EDT

anon posted : :huh:Avoid this site like the plague. Poor quality is the least of their problems. Wrong size, watches that do not work and of course, the fact that they do not tell you - you have to pay import duty. They pretend to be of your country's origin. No such thing. It is just one con Chinese in a flat somewhere, sourcing!

My wife ordered for delivery in France - 40% charges! :mad:

Mini In The Box is one of the worst rip offs among a whole host of rip offs on the net these days.

STAY AWAY.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:03:05 EDT

garys_2k posted : Please do let us know. There have been previous threads about this company where some members here have said that they were satisfied with this company.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:23:31 EDT

anon posted : gee im guessing i should have read the reviews before purchasing. now i can only hope my item arrives

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 05:52:23 EDT

anon posted : Yes this company is a SCAM! I ordered an item in NOVEMBER. I was in constant contact about the item not being delivered. It took them until JANUARY to agree to refund me. It is now JANUARY 16 and I am still fighting to get my refund!!!! DO NOT BUY FROM THEM!!!!

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 05:51:57 EDT

anon posted : You need to keep your orders under $20 than you don't have to pay Import!

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 06:02:49 EDT

anon posted : I would like to add another WARNING for anyone thinking of shoppig with them. Items may be shipped from Hong Kong. Hence, you may pay import taxes!!
I bought stuff for 34€ and ended up paying another 25€ importing rights.
I contected them and they told me that because they can't predict these costs, they do not warn you and will not repay you.
Miniinthebox is a scam indeed. Do not shop there.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Wed, 09 Jan 2013 21:37:26 EDT

anon posted : I have been done the same way at Mini In The Box.com! Placed an order back in December and still have not received it yet and they don't have a phone number to contact them! People like this need to be beat down by everybody they have ripped off! Yea fuck miniinthebox.com= :mad:

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Mon, 31 Dec 2012 09:35:53 EDT

yuni posted : I've waited almost two months for my order now, and I can't contact them at all because LightInTheBox wouldn't recognize the password I used at MiniInTheBox. When I registered at LightInTheBox with the same email account, and even same password, it says that I don't have any orders. Because my fucking order is at MiniInTheBox. But when I want to contact them, they send me to LightInTheBox WHERE I HAVE NO ORDERS. This is fucking ridiculous, I wasted a lot of money on that site and they won't even let me contact them.

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 16:15:35 EDT

anon posted : I had the completely opposite experience. I'm currently waiting for my second miniinthebox order. I love the site and company! I live entirely across the world and all my items were delivered within the time they said and in perfect shape. And shipping was free! The order I am waiting for right now is almost here, since I got a tracking number with expeited shipping. Everyone is having different experiences but I DO NOT regret buying from here :)

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:49:56 EDT

stubber posted : I am still waiting for the goods !! i cant contact them,the site wont recgonise my password ,all i get is no order in my queue .... give this site a wide berth .... :huh:

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:37:51 EDT

stubber posted : I am still waiting for the goods !! i cant contact them,the site wont recgonise my password ,all i get is no order in my queue .... give this site a wide berth .... :huh:

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Fri, 03 Aug 2012 00:36:58 EDT

PeeWee posted : I've dealt with them often. Missing shipments have been replaced no hassle. One refund instance went well. Patience is required. Only reason to hesitate recommending to a friend is that I know what I am looking at, someone else may see what they want to see instead of carefully reading.
--
Those that charge less for their work understand what their work is worth! ;-)

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:28:24 EDT

anon posted : Dear Customer,

Thank you for shopping with us and telling us about your experience. Please send us your order number, so that Customer Service can find you in our system. We will follow up with you via email about your request for refund. Since you already have a Customer Service ticket open, please follow the link »www.lightinthebox.com/index.php?···t_center to check the progress of your request.

Though we do not have Live Chat system, we do try our best to answer every requests from our customers.

Thank you,

LightInTheBox

Re: [Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:26:38 EDT

anon posted : I have used them more than once with no 'fraud' problem. I think they are just a poor quality service organization. The goods are of variable quality for sure (poor quality or fakes mostly - be especially cautious with software) and orders are imported into the US by regular mail, registered on the customs forms as gifts so you as importer take the import duty risks. I don't think they are fraud - just bad. YMMV of course.

Mitch

[Scam] Mini in the box and Light in the box scam!

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 09:05:49 EDT

anon posted : Warning, don't order!!!! I bought something and it came defected. The company said, to keep it and they will refund me. Ism still waiting and its been over a month. The claimed that they did but when I inquired, they had the wrong credit card number. They said they refunded it there and that's it. You cant speak to a live person but you have to submit a claim ticket and wait 24 hrs for a response. If the company does not have a phone or they are in China, don't order. It's not worth the savings or the hassle. I am out 20 bucks but it could have been more!!!! Lesson learned! I just found out my credit card number was stole, hm was it them?