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scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to howardfine

Re: Could Linux take off thanks to Windows 8?

said by howardfine:

said by JohnInSJ:

since MS has Bing and doesn't need Google for search

Microsoft loses about $500 million every quarter on Bing so maybe they do. Or should.

I'm no particular fan of Microsoft (obviously), and I use Google every single day, but I wish there was still a good and solid competitor for them like there used to be several years ago. I've run into some real problems while using Google (major quality control issues on their part) where I was trying to use it for serious searching and paying close attention to the results that it returned over time (via repeated searches) - not the quick-and-dirty, one-off, drive-by searches that most of the world does, including me.

And I recently had a brief but intense on-line discussion with (what turned out to be, although he tried to cover his tracks later) a Google insider, and the amount of vitriol he threw at me when I tried to point some of its flaws was nothing short of astonishing! His attitude was literally "We're Google, we know what we're doing, and we know what's best for you - meanwhile you're just an incompetent user!" And he tried to deny that Google these days will place revenue-generating results preferentially on the front page, nearest the top, even though this is well-documented behavior and quite obvious for many searches.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO

said by scross:

And he tried to deny that Google these days will place revenue-generating results preferentially on the front page, nearest the top, even though this is well-documented behavior and quite obvious for many searches.

It is not well documented. It's rumor and speculation based on paid ads which are placed near the top which are relevant to search results but the search results are not based on the advertising dollars.


howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to scross

said by scross:

...a Google insider, and the amount of vitriol he threw at me when I tried to point some of its flaws was nothing short of astonishing! His attitude was literally "We're Google, we know what we're doing, and we know what's best for you - meanwhile you're just an incompetent user!"

I'm not surprised. These are very intelligent people who are directly working on the product and they DO know more than you and I about how it all works cause they have the bigger picture and...they work directly with the product...so we don't know what they know and they know everything about the users universal preferences.

In my restaurant, I occasionally get sniffy people who try and tell me how to run things and what to carry but they don't see what I see on a daily basis and don't understand why things are done the way they are. In many cases, what they are requesting is the exact opposite of what others tell me what they want or expect. I know better than the customer and, yes, the customer is not always right.


BBBanditRuR
Dingbits

join:2009-06-02
Parachute, CO
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

Microsoft loses about $500 million every quarter on Bing so maybe they do. Or should.

Since you mentioned it, I felt it's worth remembering this little "oopsie": »googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/···rch.html

--

Can Linux take off thanks to Windows 8?

My feelings are these:

In the "Desktop" no. Go Apple. The desktop concept is changing, and not in Microsoft's favor.

Hence; onwards to Mobile. My answer is, "Yes, sort of"; depends on too many factors for my brain to grasp (think Windows phone/Surface/iOS/Firefox OS/Android/Tizen... get the idea? It's still the three big ones, Apple, Microsoft and Linux. Linux however, has more of a chance, but who knows. If patents come into play (and their outcomes), it may be a moot point.

All I do know in this sector is that, "he who advertises and ships more units and has more developers and has the biggest user base..." could win. Win what? I don't know. Become the next target?

However, 10/10 people that I run into don't have a Windows phone...

On Servers --> Yes, and more yes. The web and that cloud buzzword(s) will keep it a viable option. Nobody likes licensing hurdles.

--

Gaming helps Linux in usage and coverage, maybe not ideologically, but that's another battle down the road. With the detest that Valve and I guess Blizzard now have for Win8, that should say something to the potential for desktop OS switching by users, but it depends on who sops them up, and how they plan on doing that.

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by scross:

And he tried to deny that Google these days will place revenue-generating results preferentially on the front page, nearest the top, even though this is well-documented behavior and quite obvious for many searches.

It is not well documented. It's rumor and speculation based on paid ads which are placed near the top which are relevant to search results but the search results are not based on the advertising dollars.

It IS well documented - or at least it has been in the past! But, of course, Google denies it and then goes in and tweaks the results to help make the most obvious biases disappear, at least for a while.

And it's one thing to place ads on the results page when they are clearly marked as such. Google does some of this, but they also mix ads in with the search results, NOT clearly marked as such, as if they are part of the search results themselves, and this is very deceitful.

But that's not the beef I have with them. My main complaint is that the quality of the actual search results they return is very spotty, at best. I know this based on some hard-core searching I did for a personal project, using some very specific and uncommon search terms. What I got for my troubles was here-today, gone-tomorrow, back-again-the-next-day results, where I knew the web pages behind the searches hadn't changed in the interim. The Google guy actually used the phrase "It's not a bug - it's a feature!", and when I pointed out that this was most definitely a bug in my world, he turned around and lambasted me for not using Google "the way the developers intended", and then told me that I shouldn't be using Google at all! WTF? If that's not prevarication and a tacit admission of guilt, then I don't know what is!

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by scross:

...a Google insider, and the amount of vitriol he threw at me when I tried to point some of its flaws was nothing short of astonishing! His attitude was literally "We're Google, we know what we're doing, and we know what's best for you - meanwhile you're just an incompetent user!"

I'm not surprised. These are very intelligent people who are directly working on the product and they DO know more than you and I about how it all works cause they have the bigger picture and...they work directly with the product...so we don't know what they know and they know everything about the users universal preferences.

In my restaurant, I occasionally get sniffy people who try and tell me how to run things and what to carry but they don't see what I see on a daily basis and don't understand why things are done the way they are. In many cases, what they are requesting is the exact opposite of what others tell me what they want or expect. I know better than the customer and, yes, the customer is not always right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - "the smartest guys in the room!" Where have I heard that kind of BS before? And I don't care if you graduated at the top of your class and have a PhD from Stanford or wherever - "stupid is as stupid does", and not listening to someone when they try to tell you your product is broken (much less insulting them for going to the trouble) is just flat out stupid!

And actually, those guys may not know how it really works at all. They may know how it's supposed to work, or they may know how management tells them and the rest of the world how it's supposed to work, but they may not really have a clue as to how well it actually works (the quality of the results returned, that is). Unless they are doing the very type of testing that I was (informally) doing for them.

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to BBBanditRuR

said by BBBanditRuR:

said by howardfine:

Microsoft loses about $500 million every quarter on Bing so maybe they do. Or should.

Since you mentioned it, I felt it's worth remembering this little "oopsie": »googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/···rch.html

Thanks for bringing that up! I was probably going to bring it up myself eventually if someone else didn't, but I couldn't remember if they ever really got hardcore proof of this skullduggery or not.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to howardfine

said by howardfine:

said by JohnInSJ:

since MS has Bing and doesn't need Google for search

Microsoft loses about $500 million every quarter on Bing so maybe they do. Or should.

Wow, you love to trot out old data!
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

Sukunai
Premium
join:2008-05-07
kudos:1
Reviews:
·ELECTRONICBOX
·TekSavvy DSL
reply to john262

said by john262:

If Vista couldn't kill off Microsoft then neither will Windows 8. Windows 8 might be bad but if so Microsoft will recover by coming out with a better OS next time. Windows 9 anyone? The sheeple will continue to be spoon fed by Microsoft.

Very nice point and amazingly on target.


El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
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reply to john262

said by john262:

If Vista couldn't kill off Microsoft then neither will Windows 8. Windows 8 might be bad but if so Microsoft will recover by coming out with a better OS next time. Windows 9 anyone? The sheeple will continue to be spoon fed by Microsoft.

It's not really a question of "killing off Microsoft" but an opportunity to show off Linux.

When my elderly Mac was unable to play increasingly common Hi-Def video, I decided to upgrade, at the time I ended with a Laptop that had Vista RTM pre-Loaded. I couldn't deal, and didn't really want to bother with XP either... so I drifted toward Ubuntu (6.10?) on a friend's recommendation, and I loved it.

If I were a betting man, I'd also say that Microsoft will keep pumping Windows 8 for a while, before tossing in the towel, and launching Windows 9, it was that way for Vista, so I don't see why it won't be that way for Windows 8
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to DarkSithPro

Does the Surface spat open the door for Linux?:

Acer's disquiet over Surface betrays the tough position manufacturers find themselves in. If Microsoft is no longer a reliable partner, what are the alternatives for kit makers who want to survive the post-PC era?



El Quintron
Resident Mouth Breather
Premium
join:2008-04-28
Etobicoke, ON
kudos:4
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·TekSavvy DSL

said by FF4m3 :

Does the Surface spat open the door for Linux?:

Acer's disquiet over Surface betrays the tough position manufacturers find themselves in. If Microsoft is no longer a reliable partner, what are the alternatives for kit makers who want to survive the post-PC era?

Thanks for the link... interesting reading.
--
Support Bacteria -- It's the Only Culture Some People Have


Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
reply to FF4m3

said by FF4m3 :

Does the Surface spat open the door for Linux?:

Acer's disquiet over Surface betrays the tough position manufacturers find themselves in. If Microsoft is no longer a reliable partner, what are the alternatives for kit makers who want to survive the post-PC era?

If I was a hardware vendor like Acer I would be betting on Android. Apple won't play ball, and Microsoft is a bad player. With Android you only ever need to talk to Google to get permission to use the Android branding.
Sell maybe three or four tablets, a high-end tablet and a low-end tablet, and some in-between tablets. Guarantee X amount of years of updates and get your name out there as a good producer of Android-based devices.
Ubuntu is not ready and would be a pretty risky bet at this time. It may make sense to bring Canonical to the table and keep talks open, but I wouldn't imagine any serious hedging on them too strongly yet.
--
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FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to El Quintron

said by El Quintron:

Thanks for the link... interesting reading.

Glad that you found it interesting, as I did.


FF4m3

@bhn.net
reply to DarkSithPro

Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols opines:

Microsoft is pushing users and vendors to Macs and Linux



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to JohnInSJ

said by JohnInSJ:

Wow, you love to trot out old data!

Old data? I didn't see the quarterly report that just came out a couple weeks ago but that statement has been true every quarter since Bing came out and was current 3 months ago.


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

1 edit

said by howardfine:

said by JohnInSJ:

Wow, you love to trot out old data!

Old data? I didn't see the quarterly report that just came out a couple weeks ago but that statement has been true every quarter since Bing came out and was current 3 months ago.

Edit: Ok, found it.
»www.microsoft.com/investor/Earni···ues.aspx
--
My place : »www.schettino.us