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elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

4 edits
reply to HeadSpinning

Re: Rogers New Ultimate Package

said by HeadSpinning:

Cable is upstream constrained. The frequency split on HFC networks is such that upstream resources are limited. That's why you don't see 20/20, 30/30 and 50/50...

Yea, apparently + currently in N. America Rogers and the rest of them are using the lower end of the spectrum (5-23mhz) to pump out their so called digital uploads. It's actually a digital over analogue network. All this high def cable/Docsis 3 nonsense Rogers is passing off as Digital is really the same old analogue system used for the past 60 years or so. They get away with it using QAM. QAM stands for Quadrature Amplitude Modulation. QAM is used to transport digital information over an analogue transmission network. Quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM) which is both an analog and a digital modulation scheme. It conveys two analog message signals, or two digital bit streams, by changing (modulating) the amplitudes of two carrier waves, using the amplitude-shift keying (ASK) digital modulation scheme or amplitude modulation (AM) analog modulation scheme. The two carrier waves, usually sinusoids, are out of phase with each other by 90° and are thus called quadrature carriers or quadrature components — hence the name of the scheme.

Our upload speeds will always be crippled until Rogers comes out of the stone age and actually delivers real digital cable internet/television. Once again I feel sorry for all the hapless victims out there paying an arm and a leg for a Rogers Digital terminal etc. when it's the same ole cable analogue network they've had for years.
On the Internet side, that's why there's no channel bonding and 2 of my 4 upload channels are shut down by Rogers. Rogers would need to use up to 65mhz to deliver the goods.
Some networks are not yet equipped to enable upstream transmissions up to 65 MHz, they have a “low split” which stops at a lower frequency, e.g. 23 MHz.

Always wondered why Rogers was so anxious that everybody get one of their boxes. All the terminal does is take a digital signal and convert it to run on an analogue network but in a high resolution format so folks will think it's true digital TV. If you want real Digital then switch to satellite because Rogers aint where it's at.

Facts courtesy of:
"Cable Network Handbook
Date: October 1, 2009
Version: 4.3"


yyzlhr

@rogers.com

And what technology do you suppose Rogers and other MSOs use? QAM is used by practically every cable provider in the world in some way, shape, or form.



Cable Dude 5

@rogers.com

Man, his info is very erroneous at best. First of all the standard bandwidth used for upstream traffic in North America is 5-42 MHZ, not 5-23 MHZ. Europe uses 5-65 MHZ approx. In Fact, FIOS uses QAM as well and that's delivered over Fibre. Cable cannot deliver Ethernet in its pure form over cable. Square wave for digital is not possible over CATV, but QAM does a very effective job of delivering 1's and 0's, or digital data, it's just not square wave. Yes, it's an analog representation of digital data, but its still digital. CATV is NOT an analog network, it's an RF Network that uses RF signals modulated at many different frequencies to deliver tv signals and internet. Another fact, most of the large MSO's already have FTTN architectures in place, with short runs of coax to the home. That could be eventually expanded to deliver fibre to the home, or in select buildings that already have optical nodes, the spare bandwidth on existing fibre can be split off to deliver 1Gbps services over ethernet, bypassing any RF connections. CATV systems are far from obosolete.



QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms

1 edit
reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

Once again I feel sorry for all the hapless victims out there paying an arm and a leg for a Rogers Digital terminal etc. when it's the same ole cable analogue network they've had for years.

I admit I don't fully understand the point of this rant. Signals are a function of amplitude, phase, and frequency. Digital signals are encoded using these attributes. OK. And this is bad, particularly to the fools who are not aware, why exactly?

Maybe I impress easily but the advancement in low level encoding technology and the resulting gain in usable bandwidth is really impressive. If there is anything to complain about its the lack of investment in packet buffering and queueing technology so that voice and video applications are consistanty smooth and usable. I believe some of the foot dragging is because fixing these issues will lead to cannibalizing existing voice and video infrastructure. The cash cows have been milked. It's time for the telcos to move more quickly.


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 edit
reply to Cable Dude 5

said by Cable Dude 5 :

Man, his info is very erroneous at best.

Well, don't let the truth and cold hard facts sway your opinion in any way. I didn't write the handbook. And as far as "Yes, it's an analog representation of digital data, but its still digital" well....if people choose to believe that a "representation" of something is the same as the real thing that's their choice. I just reported the facts as presented to me.

The Cable Network Handbook can be downloaded here: »docbox.etsi.org/Etsi_Cenelec/PUB···v4-3.pdf

Rayson

join:2004-01-01
Canada
reply to Cable Dude 5

said by Cable Dude 5 :

Man, his info is very erroneous at best....

Square wave for digital is not possible over CATV, but QAM does a very effective job of delivering 1's and 0's, or digital data, it's just not square wave. Yes, it's an analog representation of digital data, but its still digital. CATV is NOT an analog network,

+1

Almost every "digital" signal used in the real world is an analog representation of digital data.

Rise time & fall time can't be zero, and so we can't get a perfect square wave.


elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

said by Rayson:

Rise time & fall time can't be zero, and so we can't get a perfect square wave.

Well, to layman like myself I find this whole issue a revelation. I'll bet 99% of Rogers Digital subscribers had no idea that they were purchasing a "simulated/representative" Digital Package. Would it have affected their decision to choose Rogers over satellite, who knows? But they should have been aware of this info when making their decision.
Is this important? It would be to me. Let the customer decide.
Thanks to all the members here that actually know about this stuff. You make this forum a great place to learn.


Pesterd

@rogers.com

Went from Rogers bringing higher download speeds to 'Digital vs Analog'

>_>



Tx
bronx cheers from cheap seats
Premium
join:2008-11-19
Mississauga, ON
kudos:12
Reviews:
·TekSavvy DSL
·FreePhoneLine
·Rogers Hi-Speed

said by Pesterd :

Went from Rogers bringing higher download speeds to 'Digital vs Analog'

>_>

Pissing contests and debates are the norm on these forums these days


QuantumPimp

join:2012-02-19
Reviews:
·voip.ms
reply to elitefx

said by elitefx:

Well, to layman like myself I find this whole issue a revelation. I'll bet 99% of Rogers Digital subscribers had no idea that they were purchasing a "simulated/representative" Digital Package. Would it have affected their decision to choose Rogers over satellite, who knows? But they should have been aware of this info when making their decision.

All digital signals are "simulated" using analog waves over a physical medium. The analog waves are measured using amplitude, phase, and frequency. This includes cable, satellite, ethernet, wireless, fibre, ... everything.

Rogers and Bell take compressed feeds from a content provider via satellite, decode, re-encode for their purposes usually compressing even more than the source feed, send to the consumer where the signal is decoded and re-formatted for display. The constant decoding, and re-encoding causes all kinds of digital artifacts that makes content look like shit ... particularly compared to a better quality source like BluRay.

ABCarr

join:2012-08-03
reply to yyzlhr

Sorry.....I somehow duplicated my earlier post.



sbrook
Premium,Mod
join:2001-12-14
Ottawa
kudos:12
Reviews:
·WIND Mobile
·TekSavvy Cable
reply to Stephan_S

Your eyes are analogue, your ears are analogue.

What digital means is that an analogue sense is being encoded to transmit to a receiver and decoded to generate a facsimile of the original. The encoding and decoding may not be perfect.

Because pure digital "on off" data is degraded dramatically with distance we modulated it onto an analogue carrier, and then demodulate it off that analogue carrier back into an 'on off" signal over a short length of wire. Simple modulation techniques limited the data rate over a modulated carrier to about 30 Mbps. More complex modulating techniques now allow hundreds and thousands of Mbps over wire, and thousands over fibre.

In general the transmission of the digital data over an analogue carrier is error protected, because it can be. So, in general what comes out the other end is a perfect replica of what fed the analogue network and is not quality degraded.

Quality degradation of data over an analogue network usually results in no data, making TV unwatchable.

This thing you read is the data equivalent of falsefisix.


LINCSAT
Premium
join:2003-06-15
Markham, ON
reply to Stephan_S

This new ultimate tier was turned on for me yesterday, the highest I can get is about 140/10


technocar2

join:2009-05-29
Brampton, ON
kudos:2

said by LINCSAT:

This new ultimate tier was turned on for me yesterday, the highest I can get is about 140/10


Nice throughput there!
I still don't know why rogers has not upgraded my area even though all neighbourhoods around me have been upgraded; I checked all of my properties and all have upstream bonding. Honestly I can't wait for higher upstream.


Jhero
Premium
join:2003-10-10
Ottawa, ON
reply to Stephan_S

Nice! Hopefully there's no price increase coming



yyzlhr

@rogers.com

said by Jhero:

Nice! Hopefully there's no price increase coming

New Ultimate is $122.95 a month.


yyzlhr

@rogers.com
reply to LINCSAT

said by LINCSAT:

This new ultimate tier was turned on for me yesterday, the highest I can get is about 140/10


Are you sure they put you on New Ultimate? New Ultimate is supposed to be 150 mb down. So if you're only getting 120.2 with the speedboost kicking in it means you either don't have it or the network isn't equipped to handle this speed.


GI Suck
I Got Mail Yay

join:2004-01-14
Oshawa, ON
reply to Stephan_S

What the hell? I still don't even have upstream bonding yet. I'm still stuck with 75/2. Now I'm getting word we should be getting 150/10?

Should I start yelling?



yyzlhr

@rogers.com

Well you have to pay extra for 150/10 and that price increase does not net you any additional usage. So I'm sure rogers will be pushing this one out real quick to everyone lol.



GI Suck
I Got Mail Yay

join:2004-01-14
Oshawa, ON

Yeah, but I need upstream bonding first... That hasn't happened for me yet.


JAC70

join:2008-10-20
canada
reply to Stephan_S

Who wants to bet that all current retentions discounts won't be eligible for the new tier?


LINCSAT
Premium
join:2003-06-15
Markham, ON

When this was upgraded for me there seemed to be some confusion in regarding the modem. I was told that a new modem was required for this update. After speaking to tech support a new modem was not required, either the cisco DPC3825 or newer modem that is shipping as of yesterday to rogers plus stores. I have 8 channels down bonded now. I can't seem to get to 150 down only 130 to 140 down, I was wondering if anyone new that this newer modem allowed 10,12,14,16 channels bonded? Here is a newer speed test!




yyzlhr

@74.198.9.x

The newer modem also only supports 8 channels on the downstream



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

said by yyzlhr :

The newer modem also only supports 8 channels on the downstream

And exactly what make/model is this newer modem? Thanks


yyzlhr

@rogers.com

Hitron CDE-30364



elitefx

join:2011-02-14
London, ON
kudos:2

1 edit

said by yyzlhr :

Hitron CDE-30364

Man!! that's an ugly looking piece of hardware. Sheesh...... »www.hitrontech.com/en/cable_detail.php?id=10
No external antennae. Probably has a wireless range of 2 feet. Where does Rogers come up with this no name scrap??....
Just called the Dollar Store. They have the new Rogers Hitron Gateway in stock......


yyzlhr

@rogers.com

Meh. The design is different and definitely not something we're used to in the North American market, this is a Chinese company after all. I'm sure some will appreciate it while others won't. I'm going to give Rogers the benefit of the doubt that and assume this one performs much better on the wireless front. Otherwise, I don't see the point of contracting another vendor when Cisco is more than capable of supplying large quantities of gateways for large MSOs like Rogers.



brookz

join:2003-06-26
Waterloo, ON
reply to elitefx

Almost looking like the old LanCity modem



Gingercrab

@bell.ca
reply to Stephan_S

I'm a completely noob when it comes to internet service providers.. but I've looked all over the site and all I can find is the 75mb/ps download and 3mb/ps upload deal for ~$99 a month.

Where would I find this new ultimate one you guys are referring to? I'm hoping to switch from bell, and upgrading from ~16 mb/ps.



yyzlhr

@rogers.com

New Ultimate is not advertised as it's only available in select neighbourhoods. Call and see if you're eligible if you want to switch.