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scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN

1 edit
reply to dave

Re: Why is it bad to reboot a Windows PC?

said by dave:

said by scross:

But I've also come to expect these systems not to always reboot cleanly, and to sometimes instead exhibit truly bizarre behavior, as Windows is so wont to do.

Yeah, this is another of those things that apparently happens to every Windows user except me.

(I assume it's because I'm fairly discriminating in what I'll install)

Yeah, well, like I said, my work systems tended to be relatively stable, given the software they were running and the way I handled them (standby, etc). While the same systems sitting around me might be relatively unstable - but such pseudo-random behavior is just one of the many joys of being a Microsoft customer (having been one for over 30 years now myself).

Something that I forget to add was this: I was also in the habit of doing fairly routine maintenance and cleanup on my work laptop - clearing out temporary files, flushing caches, doing disk scans and reorganizations on a regular basis, and so on. These are things that my coworkers usually didn't bother to do or know how to do (sometimes even the Windows people didn't know how to do these things, either, or would insist that they were unnecessary). So I probably managed to head off some of the potential problems that others ran into.

My home systems are another story. While I still do the preventive maintenance processes on those, too, they might be running any number of interesting programs or visiting any number of interesting websites or whatever, so I expect a little more misbehavior out of them. But a lot of this misbehavior is still often inexplicable, though, and Microsoft is often of very little help here.


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
kudos:1
reply to vaxvms

If it's bad to reboot a WINDOWS PC, than ANY computer, regardless of OS, would be bad IMO.

The hardware would be the same despite the OS.

So no, I don't consider it bad... that's a ridiculous train of thought.



Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
kudos:1
reply to LLigetfa

said by LLigetfa:

said by dave:

There's an equally vocal bunch of people that say you should always shut computers down rather than suspend or hibernate.

Windows is buggy and reboots are often called for.

Um...wrong...


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
kudos:1
reply to vaxvms

Still power to the mobo in an off state...



Doctor Olds
I Need A Remedy For What's Ailing Me.
Premium,VIP
join:2001-04-19
1970 442 W30
kudos:18
reply to Octavean

said by Octavean:

Have You Tried Turning It Off And On Again?

***edit***

Too bad about that, youtube doesn't seem to have a clip of "the IT crowd" saying "Have You Tried Turning It Off And On Again?". Not one you can link to anyway.

This clip?

»www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC4vz6IbdtY

--
What’s the point of owning a supercar if you can’t scare yourself stupid from time to time?

scross

join:2002-09-13
Cordova, TN
reply to Cheese

said by Cheese:

said by LLigetfa:

said by dave:

There's an equally vocal bunch of people that say you should always shut computers down rather than suspend or hibernate.

Windows is buggy and reboots are often called for.

Um...wrong...

Of course! For the sake of completeness, he should have said "Windows, and its drivers, and the applications which run on it, are buggy and reboots are often called for."


shinjuru
Premium,Mod
join:2000-10-29
West Coast
Reviews:
·SureWest Internet
reply to vaxvms

Honestly, I have never seen a heavily used PC or Server with Windows 2008 or Windows 7 last more than a few months before needing a reboot of some sort. Also, how do you get around applying patches on regular basis without rebooting your Windows rig?
--
Games - GameTech - S.F.Bay -



howardfine

join:2002-08-09
Saint Louis, MO
reply to workablob

said by workablob:

The amount of savings in energy will be outweighed by the shortened lifespan of the computer caused by that many thermal cycles IMHO.

This has been bandied about for decades. Long story short, no one knows for sure, but, most likely, you save more turning it off and saving the cost of electricity and that was the consensus about 20 years ago when I used to design these things from the chip level.

Is it really in this thread where someone suggested computers need a rest? As if machinery gets tired.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to dave

said by dave:

Users should not press the power button or restart the computer while Windows is still running unless there is an issue with the computer.

This is archaic nonsense. Since the late 20th century (say, 1998) Wintel PCs have implemented a soft power button that, when pressed, sends an indication to the OS, which responds by doing a clean shutdown.

It's easy to see. Press button. Note how screen says something to the effect of 'shutting down'.

That link references Windows 98, so it's old (and I can't recall whether the stated info was true for Windows 98 - probably not, since '98 was the first Windows with ACPI support). But it also references XP, so the site is managed by an incompetent know-nothing.

B.S. This Dell XPS 600 running XPPro from Feb 1 2006 does NOT do a clean shut down when the power button is pushed. It shuts down instantly and extremely abruptly as the power is killed instantly when that button is pushed. It is the same situation as what happens when one does not have the unit on a UPS and the electricity goes off. There is a log kept of the number of improper shutdowns during the life of the computer. Incorrect shutdowns can cause problems with WMI.

22370 19:37:57 (0) ** INFO: => 23 incorrect shutdown(s) detected on:

22371 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 22 September 2008 19:25:23 (GMT+10).
22372 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 07 October 2008 20:37:42 (GMT+10).
22373 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 08 October 2008 02:27:15 (GMT+10).
22374 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 05 March 2010 01:05:24 (GMT+10).
22375 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 25 March 2010 01:12:19 (GMT+10).
22376 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 26 April 2010 03:20:59 (GMT+10).
22377 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 04 May 2010 20:24:26 (GMT+10).
22378 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 06 May 2010 02:45:49 (GMT+10).
22379 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 12 May 2010 02:52:45 (GMT+10).
22380 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 11 June 2010 03:39:42 (GMT+10).
22381 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 11 June 2010 22:51:08 (GMT+10).
22382 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 22 June 2010 16:44:29 (GMT+10).
22383 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 26 June 2010 13:12:13 (GMT+10).
22384 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 05 August 2010 21:18:29 (GMT+10).
22385 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 26 December 2010 00:28:15 (GMT+10).
22386 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 11 February 2011 17:39:14 (GMT+10).
22387 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 16 February 2011 00:11:02 (GMT+10).
22388 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 09 March 2011 19:54:11 (GMT+10).
22389 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 26 March 2011 04:00:06 (GMT+10).
22390 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 31 May 2011 19:18:00 (GMT+10).
22391 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 08 January 2012 23:22:04 (GMT+10).
22392 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 09 February 2012 17:07:06 (GMT+10).
22393 19:37:57 (0) ** - Shutdown on 18 February 2012 14:15:38 (GMT+10).
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to workablob

said by workablob:

said by vaxvms:

said by workablob:

Chips, don't like to heat up then cool down too much.

They last longer when they remain at a constant temp.

Power save mode is a better option.

The chips are kept warm when in power save?

Probably not. I honestly don't know.

It's just speculation that sleep might put less stress on the PC than a full power off.

Good question.

Dave

In Power Savings (XP) - (Vista makes you jump through hoops to set it this way), you set it:

Turn off Monitor: choose the setting you like but short time period before screensaver comes on and short before turnoff (I use "after 5 minutes of inactivity" and I have a screensaver come on "after 3 minutes of inactivity". My monitor likes these settings (although when the computer was new my nVidia card did not like these settings and caused BSODs/infinite loop until nVidia fixed the problem)...its a Dell Ultrasharp 19" LCD 5:4 ratio that is almost 9 years old with about 28,000 hours on it and it still works fine. Screensaver is used just because I like screensavers).

Turn off hard disks: Never
Standby: Never
Hibernate: Never (But I use PowerChute software with my APC UPS and I do allow PowerChute to hibernate the machine if there is a power outage). Regular hibernation on XP Pro is quite "iffy" so I had to turn it off long ago.

My computers (all desktops) have lived a lot longer than many here in a tropical rainforest (plus, I am on the ocean) where homes have no air conditioning and the windows are open most of the time. I attribute this at least partly to my policy of never allowing even standby but keeping them on 24/7 (unless I am on vacation). I've had incredulous folks here, including some small business owners that still do not have air conditioning and are right by the ocean, when I told them to try this instead of shutting their computers down every night (whether business or home if no air conditioning). I've been doing this since the late nineties and several people have told me years later that my advice kept their desktop machines healthy for years longer than when they were shutting them down daily.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1
reply to Mele20

I think I've seen an option in the cmos on some machines to control whether the power button is a soft off or an instant off. Might wanna check that.

Something just ain't right with that box.
--
Think Outside the Fox.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5

1 edit

Every computer I have owned has been instant off and they all have been XPS Dell computers.

I checked the manuals on all of the Dells I have owned (yes, I have all the manuals still). All my Dells did/do a hard, instant shutdown if the power button is used. The manuals state to never use the power button to shut down but to always do so via Start/shut down.

Nothing is wrong with this box (in regards to this issue...I do have a bulging capacitor on the mobo and non working optical drives but I am buying a new computer whenever Dell figures out the reason for the non-operational PCIe slots on the one I am planning to buy and fixes the problem). There may be something wrong with Dell if all other OEMs provide "soft off" (which I have never even heard of until this thread) except Dell. I use the button only as a last resort when the computer is hopelessly locked solid and it is the only thing I can do. Those hard shutdowns I posted were last resort due to total lockup of the computer where even Task Manager could not free anything up and generally caused by some crap program ...usually a new one I had recently installed.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS

3 edits

Must be different Dells from the two I have, then.

Anyway, it's a required feature of the hardware in order to get a 'designed for Windows' logo, which all my Dell machines have had, though apparently yours have not.

Here's the relevant words from the 2003 ACPI spec, and i can assure you that any Wintel PC you have implements ACPI.

quote:
In an OSPM system, there are two switches. One is to transition the system to the Mechanical Off state. A
mechanism to stop current flow is required for legal reasons in some jurisdictions (for example, in some
European countries). The other is the “main” power button. This is in some obvious place (for example,
beside the keyboard on a laptop). Unlike legacy on/off buttons, all it does is send a request to the system.
What the system does with this request depends on policy issues derived from user preferences, user
function requests, and application data.
Possibly you're confusing the two actions available: (1) press briefly and release = send notification to OS; (2) press and hold for 4 seconds or more = immediate powerdown.


vaxvms
ferroequine fan
Premium
join:2005-03-01
Wormtown
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Charter
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

In Power Savings (XP) - (Vista makes you jump through hoops to set it this way), you set it:

Turn off hard disks: Never
Standby: Never
Hibernate: Never (But I use PowerChute software with my APC UPS and I do allow PowerChute to hibernate the machine if there is a power outage). Regular hibernation on XP Pro is quite "iffy" so I had to turn it off long ago.

You won't save much power with these setting.
--
i before e, except after c... weird?


Cheese
Premium
join:2003-10-26
Naples, FL
kudos:1
reply to dave

said by dave:

Must be different Dells from the two I have, then.

Anyway, it's a required feature of the hardware in order to get a 'designed for Windows' logo, which all my Dell machines have had, though apparently yours have not.

Here's the relevant words from the 2003 ACPI spec, and i can assure you that any Wintel PC you have implements ACPI.

quote:
In an OSPM system, there are two switches. One is to transition the system to the Mechanical Off state. A
mechanism to stop current flow is required for legal reasons in some jurisdictions (for example, in some
European countries). The other is the “main” power button. This is in some obvious place (for example,
beside the keyboard on a laptop). Unlike legacy on/off buttons, all it does is send a request to the system.
What the system does with this request depends on policy issues derived from user preferences, user
function requests, and application data.

It's....Mele....everything happens different from the rest of the world..


JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Every computer I have owned has been instant off and they all have been XPS Dell computers.

Any computer new enough to use ACPI (and that goes back to 1996, for heaven's sake) SHOULD have a bios option to set what the power button does. The default should be ACPI shutdown. Which, for any version of windows not from the dark ages, is identical to the user pressing Start, Shutdown.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

LLigetfa

join:2006-05-15
Fort Frances, ON
kudos:1
reply to Cheese

said by Cheese:

It's....Mele....everything happens different from the rest of the world..

Maybe he is holding the button in forcing a shutdown.

I have some users that like to do that. They don't reboot for months and when it finally turns turtle and takes too long for an orderly shutdown, they get impatient and hold in the power button.

I had a former boss that was so inept that if he lost focus on a window, he would hold in the power button and start over. Blamed his computer, which of course over time would become a self-fulfilling prophecy due to corrupted files and temp file proliferation.
--
Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and formal education positively fortifies it. -- Stephen Vizinczey


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to Oedipus

said by Oedipus:

Have any of you reached the magic 1000 day uptime level on any of your Windows boxes? My current leader is an Exchange server at ~475 days.

You don't patch/update your server?
--
My domain - Nightfall.net


Nightfall
My Goal Is To Deny Yours
Premium,MVM
join:2001-08-03
Grand Rapids, MI
Reviews:
·ooma
·Comcast
·Callcentric
·Site5.com
reply to vaxvms

said by vaxvms:

I've seen posts here with people making the statement that they avoid reboot (restarting) MS Windows at all costs. Some postings seem to imply that powering off a computer running MS Windows would be like murdering a close friend.
I do not understand these aversions. My question to these people is Why do you feel it is wrong to restart the Windows operating system? Why the adamant attitude about it?

Its not bad to reboot a Windows PC. The only reason why someone wouldn't reboot is because it takes a couple minutes for it to come back up and be usable. I don't reboot mine unless I have updates that need to be applied. Aside from that, I use sleep mode when I am not using it in order to save on electricity.
--
My domain - Nightfall.net

lupus

join:2001-08-01
Bellevue, WA
reply to Mashiki

said by Mashiki:

said by Oedipus:

Have any of you reached the magic 1000 day uptime level on any of your Windows boxes? My current leader is an Exchange server at ~475 days.

Before I retired my old windows 2000 server, I was at ~600 days. Since it sat around, and simply acted as a local file server I never patched the bloody thing once it was nice and stable.

What about critical security updates that require a reboot?


BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
reply to vaxvms

Its not "bad" to reboot a Windows PC. I don't know why anybody would claim anything to the contrary.


Oedipus

join:2005-05-09
kudos:1
reply to lupus

said by lupus:

said by Mashiki:

said by Oedipus:

Have any of you reached the magic 1000 day uptime level on any of your Windows boxes? My current leader is an Exchange server at ~475 days.

Before I retired my old windows 2000 server, I was at ~600 days. Since it sat around, and simply acted as a local file server I never patched the bloody thing once it was nice and stable.

What about critical security updates that require a reboot?

I can't speak for mashiki, but in my case the Exchange server is barely opened up to the internet and only rarely gets logged into so those patches have been of little concern to me.


sivran
Seamonkey's back
Premium
join:2003-09-15
Irving, TX
kudos:1

Not to mention it's probably been that long since 2000 got a patch.

I no longer have an active 2000 machine so I'm not sure, of course.
--
Think Outside the Fox.



not

@comcast.net
reply to Oedipus

said by Oedipus:

Have any of you reached the magic 1000 day uptime level on any of your Windows boxes? My current leader is an Exchange server at ~475 days.

Which apparently, you never patch. :rolleyes:

Anyway, to the OP, I think the correct statement might have been "power cycling" a PC as in not properly shutting it down via the Windows commands. Maybe that's what you heard and misinterpreted as simply rebooting it via normal means. And that's usually frowned upon because Windows can sometimes corrupt if you do this, although, with Windows 7, that's almost no longer an issue.... even Vista was pretty proof on this, but I still don't trust it 110%. I've seen maybe 1 or 2 PCs running 7 get startup corruptions this way, but they were much easier to fix than a repair install, so in the end, it's not that big a deal.


Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Los Angeles, CA
kudos:3
reply to vaxvms

Rebooting a PC is bad? Damn, I usually just do it whenever there's a mystery quirk and I've tried the usual troubleshooting suspects.



Dustyn
Premium
join:2003-02-26
Ontario, CAN
kudos:11
reply to Doctor Olds

said by Doctor Olds:

said by Octavean:

Have You Tried Turning It Off And On Again?

***edit***

Too bad about that, youtube doesn't seem to have a clip of "the IT crowd" saying "Have You Tried Turning It Off And On Again?". Not one you can link to anyway.

This clip?

(youtube clip)

Nice.
I like how I can't watch this clip in Canada....
--
Remember that cool hidden "Graffiti Wall" here on BBR? After the name change I became the "owner", so to speak as it became: Dustyn's Wall »[Serious] RIP


Dustyn
Premium
join:2003-02-26
Ontario, CAN
kudos:11
reply to vaxvms

Warm restarts? Nahh.
Hard cold restarts? Yes/No/Depends...


Libra
Premium
join:2003-08-06
USA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to dave

said by dave See Profile
Possibly you're confusing the two actions available: (1) press briefly and release = send notification to OS; (2) press and hold for 4 seconds or more = immediate powerdown.
[/BQUOTE :

Dave, are you saying that if you press the power button briefly it will do a proper shutdown? (I have a Windows 7 64-bit notebook which occasionally comes out of hybernation with a black display. I've had to press the power button down until it shuts down. I just updated the display driver hoping that will correct the problem.) If I'm understanding about briefly pressing the power button correctly - this is good to know.

Thank you.

Sincerely, Libra



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

said by Libra:

Dave, are you saying that if you press the power button briefly it will do a proper shutdown? (I have a Windows 7 64-bit notebook which occasionally comes out of hybernation with a black display. I've had to press the power button down until it shuts down. I just updated the display driver hoping that will correct the problem.) If I'm understanding about briefly pressing the power button correctly - this is good to know.

Press and hold power button is the same as pressing the reset button that PCs used to have in the bad old days. It is NOT a clean shutdown. You will just see the display go poof to black and the power stops. Like pulling the plug. In fact, you might as well pull the plug on a desktop, it's just as bad.

Pressing the power button for 1 second or less, and releasing it, will cause a clean shutdown. You'll see the PC go through all the normal shutdown processes.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us


Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to John Galt

said by John Galt:

Some applications have memory leaks that affect performance.

A reboot resolves that, temporarily, until it leaks again.

Some people don't do system maintenance, so their drives are heavily fragmented and full of crap. It takes a long time to boot.

you do not need to disk defrag SSD hard drives.