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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
kudos:1
reply to CajunWon

Re: Surge Protection Residential Whole House

said by CajunWon:

Perhaps I can build a water tight enclosure for the Eaton Product? The reason I would consider hard-wiring, without breaker: imo: if the surge comes through as a result of a lightning induced surge from near-by (but not a direct hit to the house) it normally comes in a a series of pulses. If the first pulse is shunted a millisecond prior to the breaker tripping, then subsequent pulses will hit the panel unprotected by this WH/SPD.

The Eaton product is has a NEMA 4 rating which is suitable for outdoor mounting. I have a similar (older) model and I like the fact that it is exposed so every time I go by the panel I can verify by the LEDs that the device is still working. As far as the breaker tripping, I don't think that would ever happen. The reason for the breaker is for ease of installation. There is very little, if any, protection being offered by the breaker. I think the ease of replacing a device connected to a breaker is probably worth the small sacrifice in protection. I have similar problems in my neighborhood, in that a lightning strike will travel a fairly long ways over the power lines taking out multiple TVs, computer networks and sometimes even AC control boards at houses fairly distant from the actual strike.

As far as the EATON units, if they take a surge then the LEDs on the device change from green to red and the unit must be replaced.


CajunWon

join:2005-12-30
Cary, NC

1 edit
reply to garys_2k
Agree: seems a bit risky and without benefit to connect HOT, Breakers required:check!

Coaxial protection seemed unnecessary since the shield of a coaxial cable is grounded. The TII products state protecting the center conductor: »www.digicomm.com/tii210.pdf
But this »www.amazon.com/TII-Broadband-Sat···3&sr=1-2 is for use with RG6 and therefore appears the better choice. Perhaps this is just the newer version of the same product. Just ordered!

ssnsltd

join:2002-07-09
Fayetteville, NC

2 edits
reply to CajunWon
I’ve been installing these in family/friends’ houses for years. My brother’s place in Florida going on 14 years of storms and lightning- not one item lost. Ive installed several diff brands, they all work. Important to remember these do not take the place of local/spot/outlet surge protection for sensitive electronics.
Need one for panel, and potentially cable and land-line phones. kinda depends on where one is, and whats attached. Cable and phone suppressors can potentially impact cable and/or internet service. Do your homework; do “before” and “after” service checks.
Whole house “kit” example: »www.amazon.com/Whole-House-Hardw···ppressor The Suppressor alone can be found for ~$55-$60 on Ebay.
This model suppressor (~$50) installs at/in the meter (will need to call utility company): »www.wholehousesurgeprotectorrevi···240-faa/
Multiple types available at Orange and Blue "Box" stores, Orange box has more options:
»www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Bre···C_MODE|0

david


Raphion

join:2000-10-14
Samsara
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to CajunWon
said by CajunWon:

The outside panel is closer to the service entrance, and the copper ground rod is right there as well. I also have a lightning rod wired (Wire-nut & soldered to prevent corrosion) to that same ground rod.

Perhaps I can build a water tight enclosure for the Eaton Product?
The reason I would consider hard-wiring, without breaker: imo: if the surge comes through as a result of a lightning induced surge from near-by (but not a direct hit to the house) it normally comes in a a series of pulses. If the first pulse is shunted a millisecond prior to the breaker tripping, then subsequent pulses will hit the panel unprotected by this WH/SPD.

The Square D product warranty all say something about being installed by a licensed electrician -which is not going to happen. After reading the Eaton pdf referenced through one of the above links: the 30kA protection will be more than adequate.

Have heard that these devices are sacrificial -after they protect once then they require replacement. Something about a capacitor internally will burn up to absorb (shunt) the spike. True?

btw: what started this was losing a TV just following an intense lightning storm. It was plugged into a Panamax Max6 surge protector and turned off. Even though we had no noticeable electrical anomalies & the UPS devices (connected to the PCs) never activated I feel the situation was circumstantial enough to suspect some sort of temporary over voltage.

If you don't have surge protection (MOVs) between the cable TV and your electrical system, I'd bet that the lightning raised your electrical system up as a whole, so nothing connected to it alone was damaged, but that the surge ran through the TV to the CATV line, cooking the TV.

Everything entering the house, EVERYTHING, should have heavy MOVs between all conductors and a single ground point.


CajunWon

join:2005-12-30
Cary, NC
reply to CajunWon
Ordered the Leviton 51110 (3rd item in OP).
»www.amazon.com/Leviton-51110-1-P···02VJKAZS
$53 net from the Orange store. 3-phase (replace after 3rd incident). 26kA; 1449 revision 2.5 & 3 NEMA4x to optionally install externally/outdoors to check lights occasionally. I don't yet get the purpose of the 4th wire.
Made in China


leibold
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join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
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said by CajunWon:

I don't yet get the purpose of the 4th wire.

2 * Hot, 1 Neutral, 1 Ground

4 wires sound correct.

Where did you see 3 phase ? This surge protector is single phase 120/240V.
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Jan Janowski
Premium
join:2000-06-18
Skokie, IL
Reviews:
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There are 4 wires involved in 120/240..
The two hot wires, each with 120VAC to the neutral (wire 3), and a local ground (wire 4)...

said by leibold:

said by CajunWon:

I don't yet get the purpose of the 4th wire.

2 * Hot, 1 Neutral, 1 Ground

4 wires sound correct.

Where did you see 3 phase ? This surge protector is single phase 120/240V.


--
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CajunWon

join:2005-12-30
Cary, NC
reply to leibold

Re: SPD

Where did you see 3 phase ? This surge protector is single phase 120/240V.
Phase was wrong term: Separate surge suppression indicator lights stay on for Phase 1 and Phase 2 until protection is lost

Within the user review of the referenced AZ product listing: connect both the white and green wires to whats called the "common bus"

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
reply to CajunWon

Re: Surge Protection Residential Whole House

said by CajunWon:

Ordered the Leviton 51110 (3rd item in OP).
»www.amazon.com/Leviton-51110-1-P···02VJKAZS
$53 net from the Orange store.

I like it! Good luck. I have fully five (5) Panamax whole house protectors (with two LEDs) that cost $100 each and don't have enclosures, so I needed in one case to buy a box for it. No need w/the Leviton.


leibold
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join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
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reply to CajunWon

Re: SPD

said by CajunWon:

Within the user review of the referenced AZ product listing: connect both the white and green wires to whats called the "common bus"

This is correct when the surge protector is installed in a main panel since in a main panel Ground (Green wire) and Neutral (White wire) are bonded together. Even with the bond there may be separate Neutral and Ground bars.

If the surge protector is installed anywhere else (perhaps protecting a subpanel in a detached structure) you would need to keep White/Neutral and Green/Ground separate.
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garys_2k
Premium
join:2004-05-07
Farmington, MI
Reviews:
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·callwithus
Where would the "best" place to install one of these be if you also had a generator with an ATS: At the house's main panel (downstream from the ATS) or on the incoming service lines in the ATS? Maybe get two?

I'd want to protect the ATS' electronics from a surge, but also get house protection even from a gennie burp. Hmmm, I'm thinking that the best bet would be two surge protectors.


leibold
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join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
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said by garys_2k:

Hmmm, I'm thinking that the best bet would be two surge protectors.

If you only want to install one surge protector I would choose the location with the better path to ground. However it sounds as if in your case two surge protectors are a good idea.
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eagleknight

join:2002-11-08
Troy, OH
reply to nunya

Re: Surge Protection Residential Whole House

said by nunya:

I don't carry or advocate Square D products (I have a low opinion, generally, of their residential stuff), so I can't tell you what the price should be.

Just curious what brand do you like for Home installs?


nunya
LXI 483
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join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Cutler and Siemens.
--
...because I care.


UHF
All static, all day, Forever
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reply to nunya
said by nunya:

I don't carry or advocate Square D products (I have a low opinion, generally, of their residential stuff)

What's wrong with QO? It's all I ever use due to easy of availability as well as it seeming to be good quality. I do not like Homeline stuff.


nunya
LXI 483
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O Fallon, MO
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#1) Overpriced (for what you get)
#2) Flimsy. The breakers literally fall out out the panel or else sit at an "angle". Ironically, it's a PITA to get them onto the bus.

BTW, I'm extra angry at SQD because I just came in for lunch from a commercial job with QO stab in breakers. You practically have to beat the 3 pole breakers onto the bus. That's ridiculous.
--
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UHF
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I don't use the 3 pole QOs, but the one and two poles are the same price as Cutler and GE at the big box stores. Never had any issues getting any of them onto the bus. But then, I've probably only installed 100 of them in my lifetime, probably a tiny fraction of what you've seen.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya
said by nunya:

#1) Overpriced (for what you get)
#2) Flimsy. The breakers literally fall out out the panel or else sit at an "angle". Ironically, it's a PITA to get them onto the bus.

BTW, I'm extra angry at SQD because I just came in for lunch from a commercial job with QO stab in breakers. You practically have to beat the 3 pole breakers onto the bus. That's ridiculous.

There's something to say for bolt-on breakers of all manufacturers. Install once and forget them. Can't fall out, sit at an angle or have problems with high resistance stab connections resulting in catastrophic failures.


nunya
LXI 483
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I think they all should be bolt-in. I used to like the SQD bolt in stuff, but they went to plastic retainers on the outer rail. All manufacturers went to plastic, but most slide under (BR style). SQD basically have to be "smashed" on.
--
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iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
said by nunya:

I think they all should be bolt-in. I used to like the SQD bolt in stuff, but they went to plastic retainers on the outer rail. All manufacturers went to plastic, but most slide under (BR style). SQD basically have to be "smashed" on.

maybe they are trying to avoid high resistance stab connections!. if you make the connection really tight, it reduces the possibility of high resistance connections. SQD had really nice breakers, they'd trip very quickly on a short, which was uncommon at one time.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
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said by iknow:

said by nunya:

I think they all should be bolt-in. I used to like the SQD bolt in stuff, but they went to plastic retainers on the outer rail. All manufacturers went to plastic, but most slide under (BR style). SQD basically have to be "smashed" on.

maybe they are trying to avoid high resistance stab connections!. if you make the connection really tight, it reduces the possibility of high resistance connections. SQD had really nice breakers, they'd trip very quickly on a short, which was uncommon at one time.

We've tested Sq D breakers that would not trip until they disintegrated. All circuit breakers should be manually exercised ON/OFF on a regular basis. Especially those in harsh environments.

That's why fuses are a much better and reliable protective device.

westom

join:2009-03-15
kudos:1
reply to leibold

Re: SPD

said by leibold:


If the surge protector is installed anywhere else (perhaps protecting a subpanel in a detached structure) you would need to keep White/Neutral and Green/Ground separate.

Please appreciate what a protector does. No protector does protection. A perfect example is the TV cable.

Best protection for cable is a wire, low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, not inside metallic conduit, etc) to earth ground. Low impedance is not low resistance. All protection is performed by the earthnig electrode.

Protection is preformed by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Not the protector. Earth ground. Cable needs no protector. But cable must connect to what does all protection.

'Whole house' protector is effective when it makes that same low impedance connection to single point ground. For example, if a breaker box ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an electrode, then protection is compromised. That wire must go through the foundation and down to a rod. No sharp bends. Wire shorter. Ground wire routed away from other non-grounding wires. What increases protection? A lower impedance and earthing that exceeds code requirements. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Always.

A protector must be located so that every utility wire inside every incoming cable makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to what does all protection: single point earth ground.

Protectors are simple science. Since lightning may be 20,000 amps, then the protector must be at least 50,000 amps. A protector suffers many direct strikes AND remains functional. That number defines "life expectancy".

"Protection during each surge" is defined by the earthing and its connection. Earthing is the art of protection.

Finally, if a protector's light indicates a failure, then the protector was grossly undersized. That indicator light only reports one type of failure. Meaning a protector greater than 50,000 amps is required for that venue. Properly sized protectors must earth many direct strikes ... and remain functional.

iknow
Premium
join:2012-03-25
said by westom:

said by leibold:


If the surge protector is installed anywhere else (perhaps protecting a subpanel in a detached structure) you would need to keep White/Neutral and Green/Ground separate.

Please appreciate what a protector does. No protector does protection. A perfect example is the TV cable.

Best protection for cable is a wire, low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet', no sharp wire bends, not inside metallic conduit, etc) to earth ground. Low impedance is not low resistance. All protection is performed by the earthnig electrode.

Protection is preformed by what absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules. Not the protector. Earth ground. Cable needs no protector. But cable must connect to what does all protection.

'Whole house' protector is effective when it makes that same low impedance connection to single point ground. For example, if a breaker box ground wire goes up over the foundation and down to an electrode, then protection is compromised. That wire must go through the foundation and down to a rod. No sharp bends. Wire shorter. Ground wire routed away from other non-grounding wires. What increases protection? A lower impedance and earthing that exceeds code requirements. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Always.

A protector must be located so that every utility wire inside every incoming cable makes that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to what does all protection: single point earth ground.

Protectors are simple science. Since lightning may be 20,000 amps, then the protector must be at least 50,000 amps. A protector suffers many direct strikes AND remains functional. That number defines "life expectancy".

"Protection during each surge" is defined by the earthing and its connection. Earthing is the art of protection.

Finally, if a protector's light indicates a failure, then the protector was grossly undersized. That indicator light only reports one type of failure. Meaning a protector greater than 50,000 amps is required for that venue. Properly sized protectors must earth many direct strikes ... and remain functional.

you'd be really surprised then at the differential voltage impressed between the center conductor and the shield by lightning!. up in the GHZ range, a high current pulse(lightning) easily destroys cable equipment, IF not protected by a PROPERLY installed protector. common mode voltage is mostly nullified by PROPER grounding of the shield, but don't bet your life on it!.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:8
reply to CajunWon

Re: Surge Protection Residential Whole House

Virtually all residential grounding doesn't even come close to providing protection against lightning.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
said by John Galt:

Virtually all residential grounding doesn't even come close to providing protection against lightning.

Lightning both direct and induced from nearby strikes.


SmokChsr
Who let the magic smoke out?
Premium
join:2006-03-17
Saint Augustine, FL
reply to CajunWon
From down here in lightning free Florida.. More than likely the whole house surge protector would have done nothing to prevent the damage to your TV.

Some have said your only protection is your earth ground. I don't really agree with that. It's good to have a earth ground, but what is MOST important is to only have ONE ground. When I say that I don't mean that you can only have one ground rod, what I mean is that everything that is or can be a ground is bonded together before it enters the building.

For what I do this is normally done with 3" .032 copper strap. For home applications you will go a long way towards protection with a #6 solid copper wire around the house that ties everything together.

If you live in an area that has underground electric service, then lightning rods for the roof are highly advised as well.


SparkChaser
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Downingtown, PA
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1 edit
reply to CajunWon
Just got this is the morning email. Thought the forum might appreciate it.

Surge protection—Stop fried electronics

»www.eetimes.com/design/industria···signLine

laserfan

join:2005-01-14
Texas
Nice article, "Surge 101" but I was interested to get to the punch line, which is always "what's this guy selling" and so I looked it up:

»www.bb-elec.com/product_family.a···Trail=94

$100 bucks and applies to only RS22 and 485 lines afaict. Don't sell a three-stage protector for Ethernet it seems. Still, nice info to have.

Bob4
Account deleted

join:2012-07-22
New Jersey
It's also curious, because his voltage levels for RS-232 are wrong.


alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to SmokChsr
said by SmokChsr:

but what is MOST important is to only have ONE ground. When I say that I don't mean that you can only have one ground rod, what I mean is that everything that is or can be a ground is bonded together before it enters the building.

That's pretty much the code.

said by SmokChsr:

For home applications you will go a long way towards protection with a #6 solid copper wire around the house that ties everything together.

Ties everything together? You mean the multiple ground electrodes?
Or are you saying to ground anything that's conductive attached to the house, such as roof antenna, attic venting hoods, drain stacks and so on, to a #6 that goes to your ground rod?