dslreports logo
site
 
    All Forums Hot Topics Gallery
spc

spacer




how-to block ads


Search Topic:
uniqs
3716
share rss forum feed


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Charter
·surpasshosting

2 recommendations

A picture is worth 3 words...

Click for full size
WTF?
I came across this panel this morning. Check out this "brother-in-law" install. I quit counting at 24 conductors going into the 2" pipe.
The morons went out and got red, blue, and black wire; but they would use one roll until they ran out, and then switch to another color. So, none of the phases are correctly marked either.

I've never seen anything quite like this.
--
...because I care.


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5

1 recommendation

I got called out to a rural school and found that the entire electrical system was pulled in green TW...hots, neutrals and grounds.

I was there for a few months...



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to nunya

For the first second, I thought this was a data networking raceway.



tmh

@comcastbusiness.net
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I've never seen anything quite like this.

Gotta love the red, white, and blue.

MikeB_30

join:2010-03-25
Tipton, IA
reply to nunya

Wow.....just...wow.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
reply to nunya

That's just...wrong.



nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Charter
·surpasshosting
reply to nunya

And, BTW, the picture isn't distorted. The conduits are really entering the box like that.
It's funny, this 2" pipe runs the length of the building and every 10-15' there's a big Wiegmann enclosure with 5-10 MC cables entering it.
The MC up in the ceiling is just as nice as can be, except they screwed it to the roof deck. I don't want to be around when a new roof gets laid down. The screws are already sticking through about 3".
This area was "unincorporated" when constructed. The city has since annexed it.

I decided it would be best just to run my new circuits straight back to the panel. I really wouldn't want to explain to the inspector why I added a few more conductors to that pipe.
--
...because I care.



djrobx
Premium
join:2000-05-31
Valencia, CA
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
·VOIPO
reply to tmh

said by tmh :

said by nunya:

I've never seen anything quite like this.

Gotta love the red, white, and blue.

Patriotic! And from the sounds of it, there'll be fireworks when the roof needs replacing.
--
AT&T U-Hearse - RIP Unlimited Internet 1995-2011
Rethink Billable.


SparkChaser
Premium
join:2000-06-06
Downingtown, PA
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Verizon FiOS
reply to John Galt

said by John Galt:

I got called out to a rural school and found that the entire electrical system was pulled in green TW...hots, neutrals and grounds.

I was there for a few months...

they must have gotten a good price on the wire


chamberc
Premium
join:2008-08-05
Irving, TX
reply to nunya

Nothing wrong with that... a nice way to avoid welfare donations to the union members...


TheMG
Premium
join:2007-09-04
Canada
kudos:2
Reviews:
·NorthWest Tel
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

The morons went out and got red, blue, and black wire; but they would use one roll until they ran out, and then switch to another color. So, none of the phases are correctly marked either.

WTF indeed.

Why did they even bother to purchase rolls of different colors?

JoelC707
Premium
join:2002-07-09
Lanett, AL
kudos:5
reply to nunya

Holy crap on a cracker...

I'm not sure what's worse, that or John Galt See Profile's all green. They seem to be pretty equal actually. Wow....



Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

I came across this panel this morning. Check out this "brother-in-law" install. I quit counting at 24 conductors going into the 2" pipe.
The morons went out and got red, blue, and black wire; but they would use one roll until they ran out, and then switch to another color. So, none of the phases are correctly marked either.

I've never seen anything quite like this.

What were these circuits utilized for? Power or control?


Coma
Thanks Steve
Premium
join:2001-12-30
NirvanaLand
reply to TheMG

said by TheMG:

Why did they even bother to purchase rolls of different colors?


When I was working on boats/yachts, I came across a fine specimen that the owner must have cornered the market on brown wire. That fucking nightmare took months to unravel, and of course he bitched and moaned.

--
August is National Eye Exam Month


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by Coma:

said by TheMG:

Why did they even bother to purchase rolls of different colors?


When I was working on boats/yachts, I came across a fine specimen that the owner must have cornered the market on brown wire. That fucking nightmare took months to unravel, and of course he bitched and moaned.

Boats: Red, Black, Brown, White, Green (SOP)


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to nunya

Just wondering, what are the specific code violations? Having to do with the # of circuits in the raceway?

Is this three-phase?

I know it's customary to use the ungrounded colors in some sort of systematic pattern, but I wasn't aware that the NEC required it in any residential installations.

In my load center, I think I've got every color THHN/THWN manufactured by Essex, including gray.

As Alkizmo alluded to, I suspect that the brother-in-law was used to doing data wiring. Maybe you could sell them some busway.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb



alkizmo

join:2007-06-25
Pierrefonds, QC
kudos:1
reply to TheMG

said by TheMG:

WTF indeed.

Why did they even bother to purchase rolls of different colors?

Stolen supplies from a construction site maybe?

You'd be surprised what can lay around. I remember as a teenager, there was a LOT of industrial construction near my house and out of curiosity I explored those sites at night with my friends.

We'd find rolls of electrical cables, boxes of nails, and even blueprints!

Though I guess these days they lock up everything.


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom
reply to ArgMeMatey

said by ArgMeMatey:

Just wondering, what are the specific code violations? Having to do with the # of circuits in the raceway?

Is this three-phase?

I know it's customary to use the ungrounded colors in some sort of systematic pattern, but I wasn't aware that the NEC required it in any residential installations.

In my load center, I think I've got every color THHN/THWN manufactured by Essex, including gray.

As Alkizmo alluded to, I suspect that the brother-in-law was used to doing data wiring. Maybe you could sell them some busway.

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

said by Jack_in_VA:

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.

Fair enough. I asked at Graybar and bought 500 ft. of every different solid insulation color of 12 AWG stranded they had in stock. I probably already had black, red, blue, white and green, so from them I got brown, orange, violet, yellow, and gray. This was back when it cost $25 a roll.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb


Jack_in_VA
Premium
join:2007-11-26
North, VA
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Millenicom

said by ArgMeMatey:

said by Jack_in_VA:

You see a lot of different color wires on MCC's, PLC's, Control Panels etc. Electrical wiring is not limited to Black, Red, green, White, grey and Brown.

Fair enough. I asked at Graybar and bought 500 ft. of every different solid insulation color of 12 AWG stranded they had in stock. I probably already had black, red, blue, white and green, so from them I got brown, orange, violet, yellow, and gray. This was back when it cost $25 a roll.

That was a very thoughtful and wise decision.


nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Charter
·surpasshosting
reply to ArgMeMatey

To answer your question and a few others:
The biggest issue is de-rating. These are all power circuits.
The circuits would all have to be derated 45%.
Judging from the neutral count, it appears something went horribly awry as well.
All mwbc's must be grouped and properly identified.

Ordinarily there would be several smaller conduits leaving the panel; rather than 1 giant conduit.
The other conduits you see are from the vanilla box (lights, sidewall outlets, HW, emergency lighting, 1 HVAC RTU.
While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed. The feeder coming in is tagged out properly ABC Black Red Blue. (This is a common 120/208 3 phase service)

Finally, poor workmanship in and of itself is a code violation. When all else fails 110.12.
--
...because I care.


sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
reply to ArgMeMatey

said by ArgMeMatey:

This was back when it cost $25 a roll.

$55/roll + 8.5% tax today.


ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

To answer your question and a few others:
The biggest issue is de-rating. These are all power circuits.
The circuits would all have to be derated 45%.
Judging from the neutral count, it appears something went horribly awry as well.
All mwbc's must be grouped and properly identified.

Ordinarily there would be several smaller conduits leaving the panel; rather than 1 giant conduit.
The other conduits you see are from the vanilla box (lights, sidewall outlets, HW, emergency lighting, 1 HVAC RTU.
While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed. The feeder coming in is tagged out properly ABC Black Red Blue. (This is a common 120/208 3 phase service)

Finally, poor workmanship in and of itself is a code violation. When all else fails 110.12.

Thanks. WI did not require derating until some time after 2002, I think. I've got a couple of conduits with multiple MWBCs but they are grouped ... which is also why I have both white and gray for the grounded.

At one place where I lived in the 90s, they ran all the NM-B through a single 1-1/2 or 2" conduit stubbed out of the top of the load center.
--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb


John Galt
Forward, March
Premium
join:2004-09-30
Happy Camp
kudos:5
reply to nunya

Nipples under 24" do not require derating (that 24" includes the connector and the bushings, too). You can cram the pipe full as you can.

And notice that I said UNDER 24"...you ain't see a Sparky cry until the AHJ tells him that pipe is exactly 24"...and the install doesn't pass.

Code be da Code...



nunya
Premium,MVM
join:2000-12-23
O Fallon, MO
kudos:12
Reviews:
·voip.ms
·Charter
·surpasshosting

1 recommendation

reply to ArgMeMatey

De-rating isn't anything new. It doesn't matter what state you are in, the laws of physics still apply. I think it's safe to say that it's been a code requirement for a long time. I would guess over 100 years.

FWIW, going back to 1962 (the earliest I could find) it looks like WI just takes the NEC and adds their own little pre-cursor to the front with some minor amendments.
Basically, it's called the the WI electrical code, but it's really just the same NEC that almost everywhere USA uses.
--
...because I care.



ArgMeMatey

join:2001-08-09
Milwaukee, WI
kudos:2
Reviews:
·Time Warner Cable

said by nunya:

De-rating isn't anything new. It doesn't matter what state you are in, the laws of physics still apply. I think it's safe to say that it's been a code requirement for a long time. I would guess over 100 years.

FWIW, going back to 1962 (the earliest I could find) it looks like WI just takes the NEC and adds their own little pre-cursor to the front with some minor amendments.
Basically, it's called the the WI electrical code, but it's really just the same NEC that almost everywhere USA uses.

I should know by now that if I don't properly qualify and source my statements in this forum they will be refuted and rejected.

You are right of course that derating has been around since the beginning of time. I was referring to a specific provision Wisconsin had (Comm 16.30) in 1999 which is what was relevant to my situation.

quote:
ARTICLE 310
CONDUCTORS FOR GENERAL WIRING
Comm 16.30 Ampacities for conductors rated
0-2000 volts [NEC 310-15].
(1) ADJUSTMENT FACTORS [NEC 310-15(b)(2)]. This is a department exception in addition to the exceptions specified in NEC 310-15(b)(2)(a):
Exception No. 5: The derating factors shown above do not apply
to branch circuits supplying an individual dwelling unit.

--
USNG:
16TDN2870
Find your USNG coordinates:
USNGWeb


KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to nunya

I don't see a problem. The wires are very pretty and shiny. Obviously all is good!



KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
reply to TheMG

Auction sale when a supply house shut down. Really good deal on wire.



leibold
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-09
Sunnyvale, CA
kudos:9
Reviews:
·SONIC.NET
reply to nunya

said by nunya:

While there is no "set" color code, when established it should be followed.

With the notable exception that it is expressly prohibited to use either a solid green or green with yellow stripe conductor for any purpose other then grounding ( 250.119).

In my opinion that makes John Galt See Profile's discovery of all green wiring even worse then the patriotic wiring you found (however not by much). At least our patriot had the option of using phase tape to mark each wire appropriately (it is not permitted to mark a green wire to use if for other purposes).
--
Got some spare cpu cycles ? Join Team Helix or Team Starfire!


rockotman
...Blown On The Steel Breeze
Emerging Research
join:2000-08-06
DSotM
kudos:2
reply to nunya

Are the three word "brother in law" or "whiskey tango foxtrot"?