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Ghastlyone
Premium
join:2009-01-07
Las Vegas, NV
kudos:5
reply to Nick D

Re: Classes/Specs You're Terrible At

Arcane Mage.



mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

said by Ghastlyone:

Arcane Mage.

Honestly, i don't think you can be TERRIBLE at arcane mage. it is boring as hell to play. blizzard's attempt at making them a tab bit more in depth (mana burn phase, mana conservation phase) didn't quite do the trick either.
--
Good evening!


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

he's a formerly ranked lock who plays without addons... boredom is a deal breaker for Ghastlyone.



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Nick D

I cannot play hunter as survival to save my life. I'm pretty darn good as MM, and if you give me a few minutes to rebind my keys I could probably be passable at BM. Other than that, I also have to agree that balance/boomkin is awkward... I have not touched my druid in a long time, and it's because I just cannot get the feel for that spec at all. Might be time to re-spec into resto for that toon. I'm currently really enjoying leveling my elemental shaman; I really hope to get him up to L85 these next few weeks, because from what I've heard from MoP beta testers, elemental shamans can absolutely BRING IT.



Skittles
Premium
join:2011-03-31
reply to puppy

said by puppy:

Others probably think this is borning but with staying out of fire it's more than entertaining enough for me ^_^

Best comment Ive read in awhile...


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
reply to Caelharrad

the only reason to NOT be SV is if you need a silence which many other classes provide but still.
--
Good evening!



Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

1 recommendation

Or if you as a person do less DPS as Surv than Marks.

Which is the case that Cael noted.



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO

said by Nick D:

Or if you as a person do less DPS as Surv than Marks.

Which is the case that Cael noted.

Correct. I am aware that simulations/theory as well as raid logs have established that survival is currently the optimal DPS spec for hunters. (Keep in mind that this has not always been the case; as recently as 4.1 marksman was the leading raid spec. I am not aware what optimal hunter DPS spec is in MoP beta.)
...
I started off playing a hunter as BM, then switched to MM after about 6 weeks. I tried switching my offspec to SV when 4.2 hit, but I just could not get the hang of it. My brain was stuck in "MM mode". Also keep in mind that I am in a casual guild (family/friends) that very rarely raids, so I'm not feeling any pressure to switch to SV and spend hours training on dummies to squeeze out that last little bit of DPS.


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

My hunter skills are entirely limited to Surv, currently (I leveled as surv during 4.2 when it was terrible and was pleasantly surprised to find it useful in DS), and I'm curious what you find the hold back to be. It's one of the easiest specs I've played, once I got the hang of staring at my focus bar.

Do you have a hard time not Cobraing at least twice every time?

Does it feel weird to react to Lock n' Loads and fire off 3xExplosives?

Are you just not comfortable with the amount of Arcanes you can do while allowing you to Explosive on CD?

I'm basically using you as a case study here. It's one thing when you're bad at disparate classes (melee v ranged v dot v nuke v cooldown). But since the hunter specs are all pretty close in standard gameplay (build and dump focus being the primary mechanism), it's interesting that you're good at one and bad at another.



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO

Cobra shotting isn't the issue, it's mainly reacting to LnL properly. Not many unexpected procs in MM, other than the occasional instant Aimed Shot. And, as you said, "staring at the focus bar"... with MM, I pretty much know what my focus is instinctively; I can do (chimera - 2x SS - ArcS - 2x SS - chimera) as my "maintenance rotation", and if I get a haste proc (or using rapid fire, obviously) I pay more attention to my focus bar to fit aimed shots in. Occasionally I'll end up with a bit more focus then normal, so a couple of extra arcane shots when needed. When I've tried SV, I end up watching my focus bar so much I end up losing situational awareness. "Hunter, don't stand in the bad. Purple shadow goo = ouch." I don't doubt that with more practice I could get to be at least passable with SV, there just isn't any need for it right now with my guild situation.


fenix_jn

join:2006-12-28
Miami, FL
reply to Suniojii

You haven't played destro lock... you have to keep track of about 6 different debuffs and CDs plus your mana and health and the soul burn...



Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
reply to Caelharrad

said by Caelharrad:

Cobra shotting isn't the issue, it's mainly reacting to LnL properly. Not many unexpected procs in MM, other than the occasional instant Aimed Shot. And, as you said, "staring at the focus bar"... with MM, I pretty much know what my focus is instinctively; I can do (chimera - 2x SS - ArcS - 2x SS - chimera) as my "maintenance rotation", and if I get a haste proc (or using rapid fire, obviously) I pay more attention to my focus bar to fit aimed shots in. Occasionally I'll end up with a bit more focus then normal, so a couple of extra arcane shots when needed. When I've tried SV, I end up watching my focus bar so much I end up losing situational awareness. "Hunter, don't stand in the bad. Purple shadow goo = ouch." I don't doubt that with more practice I could get to be at least passable with SV, there just isn't any need for it right now with my guild situation.

I rarely play my hunter, but last night during LFR i was 3rd in dps on ultraxion as Survival. It is hands down the easiest spec next to combat rogue. I was 3rd dps btw wielding a fishing pole on accident. What is hard about the LNL procs? It glows yellow, you hit it once, hit arcane shot once, then hit it again. Thats it...


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

To be fair, I highly doubt Cael is saying, "zomg I can't break 20k as survival". He probably just can't squeeze out the dmg/dps to make in the same ball park as he does MM. There is good dps... and then there is masterful dps. When I play my wife's Surv Hunter, I can crank out up to 38k dps... she can do that while feeding our baby, clicking and mouse moving. Unfettered, she pulls 44k. Btw, I'm the one who researched and explained to her the shot priority, stat priority, gems/enchants... she just does it better than I do.
--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.



saillaw
Premium
join:2007-05-08
Dismay
kudos:2
reply to Nick D

Everything I touch turns to awesome.

That being said I kind of suck at pally, hunter, lock, priest, warrior, rogue, shammy, mage and death knight.

But, tbh I haven't found a spec yet that I considered terribly difficult. When trying a new/class/spec I simply go to »www.icy-veins.com/ and read the suggested rotation/priority. 9 times out of 10 that is enough help you beat most other players on healing/damage done. It's amazing how many players have no clue what to do, or are doing the same rotation they used in TBC.

And since the above discussions about survival hunter, here is what Icy veins says to do (btw I think I play a pretty good survival hunter and largely credit this advice):

said by Icy-Veins.com :

1. Basic Single Target Rotationtop

The single target rotation for a Survival Hunter is based on the following priority system:

Apply Hunter's Mark on the target.
Apply and maintain Serpent Sting to the target
it will be refreshed by Cobra Shot so it only needs to be done once, normally.
Cast Explosive Shot on cooldown.
Cast Kill Shot (when target is below 20% health).
Cast Black Arrow on cooldown (if the target will live for the full duration of Black Arrow).
Cast Arcane Shot if you have sufficient focus to still execute steps 3 and 5 afterwards.
Cast Cobra Shot.
Also, managing Lock and Load procs is an essential part of playing a Survival Hunter. We detail this in a specific section further down the page.

2. Basic Multiple Target Rotationtop

2.1. Less Than 4 Enemies
In this situation, Multi-Shot is not worth using. Use your single-target rotation, and replace Black Arrow with Explosive Trap, assuming that at least two targets will remain in the area affected by your trap. Doing so will give you more overall DPS and will improve your chances of getting Lock and Load procs.

Also, you will achieve more DPS if you use Lock and Load procs by:

casting a first Explosive Shot on one target (A);
casting a second Explosive Shot on a different target (B);
casting a third Explosive Shot on A or a third target (C).
2.1.1. 4 or More Enemies
Abandon your single-target rotation and use this priority list:

Cast Multi-Shot as often as your focus allows.
Cast Explosive Shot when you benefit from a Lock and Load proc (triggered by Explosive Trap).
Cast Kill Shot (when target is below 20% health).
Cast Cobra Shot whenever you have insufficient focus for Multi-Shot.
3. Cooldown Usagetop

Rapid Fire and Call of the Wild are you two cooldowns. They have the same cooldown, so they should always go together (preferably in a macro, see our macro article for Survival Hunters).

What you want is to make sure you use them as many times as possible during the encounter (so do not delay to the point where you lose a use). Other than that, try to use them:

when the boss takes extra damage;
when you need extra burst;
at the start of the fight when you have a potion active.
It is not recommended to stack these cooldowns with Bloodlust, Heroism, or Time Warp, unless the boss is about to die.

4. Aspectstop

You should always have an Aspect active. As a Survival Hunter, you should always be using Aspect of the Hawk.

Should your raid require Nature Resistance while lacking another source for it (a Shaman totem), you should use Aspect of the Wild.

When you have to move for extensive amounts of time, consider using Aspect of the Fox, which will allow you to use some of your abilities with a cast time while moving.

Aspect of the Cheetah and Aspect of the Pack are generally not advised during combat because of their negative dazing effect, but can be useful for speeding up your raid's running after a wipe.

A hunter's aspect will persist until removed by the hunter or until the hunter's death. Aspects can be changed in combat, but they cannot be changed while a cast is in progress. It is worth mentioning also that hunter aspects are on a different global cooldown, only affected by each other.

5. Optional Read: Mastering Your Survival Huntertop

While the rotations we gave in the previous sections will yield very good results, there are many things you should be aware of, in order to play your Survival Hunter to its full potential. You will need to understand all the subtleties, pertaining to your abilities, rotations, and cooldown usage, that we present below.

5.1. Focus
Hunters and their pets use a unique resource, called focus. Focus works in much the same way as other class resources, like rage and energy, in the sense that some abilities grant focus, while others cost focus in order to be used.

A Survival Hunter's focus has a maximum capacity of 100, and regenerates at an innate rate of 6 focus per second. This rate is increased by Haste Rating. In addition to this, certain abilities such as Steady Shot and Cobra Shot also grant focus.

Most of the abilities in the hunter rotation cost focus to use, and some talents decrease the focus costs, or offer other ways to gain additional focus.

Hunter pet focus works similarly, and is of no concern to you as you cannot do anything to modify it, nor will you be casting pet abilities manually.

As a general rule, you should aim to always have enough focus to cast your shots, but also to never have 100 focus (as any extra focus you generate would then go to waste).

5.2. Auto-shots and Special Shots
Hunters do the majority of their damage through the use of shots. The rest of the damage is made up of pet damage and DoT damage.

Auto Shot is the default Hunter attack, which works similarly to melee classes' auto attacks or "white swings". It is affected by your Ranged Attack Speed, and it continues to work while moving.

The other hunter shots are of all varieties: instant cast or with a cast time, costing focus or granting focus and some are utility shots which cost no focus and deal no damage.

5.3. Abilities in Detail
This section presents all the abilities you will use as part of your single target and multi-target rotation.

Cobra Shot: this is your filler shot. It has a cast time, no focus cost or cooldown and it generates 9 focus. Each time it is cast on a target affected by Serpent Sting, it will refresh its duration by 6 seconds, up to a maximum of 20 seconds. Because of Careful Aim, it has a 60% increased critical strike chance on targets above 90% health.
Serpent Sting: this is a DoT which deals Nature damage to the target over 15 seconds. It is an instant cast, costs 25 focus and has no cooldown. It is refreshed by Cobra Shot.
Explosive Shot: this is one of your key abilities as a Survival Hunter. It is an instant cast, costs 50 focus and has a 6 second cooldown. It deals Fire damage over two seconds.
Black Arrow: this is a DoT which deals Shadow damage to the target over 15 seconds. It is an instant cast, it costs 35 focus and has a 24 second cooldown. It is a key ability in your rotation.
Arcane Shot: this is your focus dump ability. It is an instant cast, costs 25 focus and has no cooldown.
Kill Shot: this ability only becomes available when your target is under 20% health. It is an instant cast, costs no focus and has a 10 second cooldown. By using Glyph of Kill Shot it becomes usable twice in a row.
Multi-Shot: this is your AoE attack. It strikes the target, and all targets within 8 yards of it. It is instant cast, has no cooldown and costs 40 focus.
Explosive Trap: places a trap on the ground, which explodes when touched by an enemy, and deals fire damage to all enemies in an area around the trap. It shares a cooldown with Black Arrow. Useful especially during AoE situations, but depending on the number of enemies and the time they will spend in the affected area, it may not be worth the global cooldown.
Hunter's Mark: this ability places a debuff on your target, increasing the ranged attack power of all attackers on the target. It is an instant cast, it has no focus cost and no cooldown, and casting it does not trigger combat.
5.4. Single Target Priority Subtleties
We remind you of the priority list that we presented earlier in this article for Survival Hunters, as the rest of this section is based on it:

Apply Hunter's Mark on the target.
Apply and maintain Serpent Sting to the target
it will be refreshed by Cobra Shot so it only needs to be done once, normally.
Cast Explosive Shot on cooldown.
Cast Kill Shot.
Cast Black Arrow on cooldown (if the target will live for the full duration of Black Arrow).
Cast Arcane Shot if you have sufficient focus to still execute steps 3 and 5 afterwards.
Cast Cobra Shot.
You should apply Hunter's Mark on the target before the pull (ideally) or right as combat begins or the target becomes available. Once that is done, you should apply Serpent Sting. Your Serpent Sting will, under most circumstances, remain on the target for the rest of the fight, as it will be refreshed by all of your Cobra Shots. In addition to the damage that it deals, Serpent Sting also allows you to benefit from the 10% increased damage granted by Noxious Stings.

You should then make sure that neither Explosive Shot nor Black Arrow are ever delayed from being used on cooldown. This means not only that you should not prioritise a different cast over them, but also that you should ensure to keep enough focus in reserve to be able to cast them.

In between Explosive Shots, you should have no difficulty in firing off three Cobra Shots. Every so often, you should replace one of the three Cobra Shots with a Black Arrow, as it becomes available. When the boss is under 20% health, you should replace Cobra Shots in order to cast Kill Shot.

5.4.1. Dumping Focus
Your only means of dumping excess focus (thus preventing capping your focus at 100, which means wasting focus) is Arcane Shot. The cost of an Arcane Shot is 25 focus (22 with Efficiency), and these should be cast only so that you do not cap your focus. There is no need (and it is indeed detrimental) to deplete your focus pool by casting several Arcane Shots at a time, if that causes you to delay Explosive Shot or Black Arrow even for an instant.

5.4.2. Sniper Training
Because Sniper Training offers a 6% increase to Cobra Shot damage, you will want to remain stationary for at least 6 seconds at a time, every 15 seconds, for the entire duration of the encounter, or as much of it as possible. In high movement fights this may prove slightly more challenging, but with a small amount of practice it should be attainable.

5.4.3. Lock and Load Procs
Whenever you deal periodic damage with Black Arrow or Explosive Trap, you have a 12% chance to trigger a Lock and Load proc, which causes your next two Explosive Shots to cost no focus and trigger no cooldown, in other words allowing you to cast three Explosive Shots in a row.

The best way to handle Lock and Load procs is to cast your Explosive Shots one after the other, with a very small break in between them (you should wait 0.1 seconds after the global cooldown of the previous Explosive Shot has finished). The reason for waiting this small amount of time is so that none of the ticks from Explosive Shot are wasted by being overwritten by the next shot. Your handling of Lock and Load procs should, therefore, be:

Explosive Shot;
Wait GCD + 0.1 seconds;
Explosive Shot;
Wait GCD + 0.1 seconds;
Explosive Shot.
If you are low on focus, however, you can weave in Cobra Shots between your explosive shots, like this:

Explosive Shot
Cobra Shot
Explosive Shot
Cobra Shot
Explosive Shot
When the boss is under 20%, you should also weave in Kill Shot between your Explosive Shots.

5.5. Tips for AoE DPS on 4 Enemies or More
If the enemies are going to remain in the same general area, and are going to be alive for a sufficient amount of time (10 or more seconds), you can place an Explosive Trap as well, through use of Trap Launcher.

Burst AoE DPS can be achieved by using Rapid Fire. Doing this will allow you to use considerably more Multi-Shots and will drastically reduce the amount of Cobra Shots you get to cast.


--
/)_/)
( . . )
C(")(")


Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

That is a non-trivial amount of information; just sayin'

Though as my own anecdote, my significant other dusted off her alt hunter to do some Dragon Soul. She leveled as Marks, did dungeons as Marks, and had never played Survival.

She was doing some terrible damage. We had her respec to Surv (because I knew the basics of that spec to advise), and she immediately added 10k DPS. Some people are just better at some specs

Which is also the point of this thread.



Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Nick D

You guys have inspired me to give SV another try... I'll report in with results later. It's not that my DPS sucks as SV (it's just a smidge below what I do as MM); I just feel completely awkward playing it, and I'm paying so much attention to what I'm doing in my rotation that I lose situational awareness. When I'm in MM, everything just flows - I see something happening, and I instinctively hit the right button without thinking. I hardly ever glance at my focus bar. When I've tried SV in 5-mans, I feel... awkward and clunky, like I said before. Probably just need more practice, is all. My survival DPS the last time I tried it was about 85-90% of my marksman DPS - and like I said, I felt like I was fighting it the whole way.



Nick D
Premium
join:2010-02-04
Orange, CA

Remember: LFR is the best training dummy in the game.



Suniojii

join:2009-10-31
Lakeside, CA
reply to Caelharrad

I actually believe that if played perfectly, MM was the top dps spec. I just hated all the hard casting of aimed shot.



saillaw
Premium
join:2007-05-08
Dismay
kudos:2
reply to Nick D

said by Nick D:

That is a non-trivial amount of information; just sayin'

Though as my own anecdote, my significant other dusted off her alt hunter to do some Dragon Soul. She leveled as Marks, did dungeons as Marks, and had never played Survival.

She was doing some terrible damage. We had her respec to Surv (because I knew the basics of that spec to advise), and she immediately added 10k DPS. Some people are just better at some specs

Which is also the point of this thread.

Yeah I was originally only going to include the first priority part, but then I thought "well i should add this next part". That kept happening and I ended up adding most of the page.
--
/)_/)
( . . )
C(")(")


Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Nick D

Results on the target dummy last night were semi-promising. After switching my alternate spec from BM to SV, then re-glyphing and doing some re-forging (basically out of haste and into mastery), I was pretty much even with SV and MM dps. I still feel like I have too much haste, and the 2-pc T13 bonus means I'm swimming in focus too much of the time, let alone when the 4 pc bonus fires off. Firing off exp-arc-exp-arc-exp when LnL proc'd seemed to work well, otherwise I was near or above 100% focus afterwards. Further practice to follow.



Draakas
My YOLO has so much SWAG

join:2010-02-19
reply to Nick D

A class/spec I'm not good at? ....... I don't understand...
Hehe Jk.

Here are some.
-Unholy DK (PvP or PvE.) (I'm not sure how good I can be at unholy since I only ever tried Frost PvE and I was doing 24k dps)
-Shadow Priest (IMO only cuz I'm out of practice. Plus I was never much of a Spriest PvE'er, however I did get Wrecking ball on this character when I played him more frequently so I'd say I was adequate.)
-Boomkin (I was indeed the shit 1-84 in dps meters in dunegons and usually top or within top 5 of top damage in BG's. Which is what I push myself to top while of course keeping a good kill:death ratio)
-Fury Warrior I wouldn't say I'm bad at it, just I haven't gotten the hand of this one yet, since I usually push myself to be at least a good player. Arms however, I can tear shit up hard.
-Demo Lock (I was good at it at some point, but I think I lost it.)
-Feral Kitty/Bear (yea I haven't tried these, so I declare I'm bad at it lol)
-Enhancement Shaman ( yea, I tried it, I'm bad at it, but then again olthe only badass enh shamans I've seen are 70+ and mines only 43. So this one I see changing
- Frost Mage I'm gonna put this one in here, cuz I'm not very good at being cheap. I just strongly dislike frost mages' playstyle, PvP of course. Yea I'm good at it if I try but I refuse to play it. I'd rather win as a fire Mage.
-Combat Rouge (I haven't ever really tried this one except when I tried for the 'Assassinate Creed' quest cuz I was desperate, ilvl 367 wasn't helping, though I did pull more dps than Sub or Ass.
- Beastiality Hunter same deal with frosties, I just don't like it and I refuse to play it. I only have a hunter to have 1 of every class, if not I wouldn't have 1 at all.

It seems like a lot I guess, but yea, I'm often pulled into raids for my ability to be good at many roles and classes and specs. Plus 6 85's 12 specs, every role, I'm not famous in my server, but those who know me know im good I guess thanks goes out to the DSL members that had to get their methods through my head ;p ty tho.
--
6 lvl 85's.
Draakas-Mage-Fire/Fire 398
Khronös-Paladin-Ret/Ret 394
Lejang-DK-Blood/Unholy 392
Vëndetta-Priest-Disc/Holy 396
Rëquiem-Druid-Resto/Bal 391
Ucantseemeho-Rogue-Sub/Ass PvP only



saillaw
Premium
join:2007-05-08
Dismay
kudos:2
reply to Caelharrad

If you are swimming in focus dump some with arcane shots.