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dslx_nick
ISP Employee
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA

dslx_nick to jimrich

ISP Employee

to jimrich

Re: [DSL] DSL extreme no working well anymore

As mentioned in another recent thread (»[DSL] From Verizon to DSL Extreme - Questions), we don't charge the ETF because we want to; we have to because AT&T charges us for it if a customer breaks contract, and we just pass it on. Still, I find discussion of such rather distasteful; rather than waste time and energy worrying about worst-case scenarios, I'd much rather focus on more constructive pursuits, such as getting you back online at full speed.

Of course, if you're having trouble trusting what two 'authorities' say, it can make it hard to figure out what's what. So! Let me give you some info, so you can have a bit more personal certainty and understanding about what's going on, and can make up your own mind about it.

If you're running into speed problems, there are different possible causes... but generally, there should be only one affecting you at any given time. Typically, you'll either encounter a physical issue, or a data issue.

Physical issues are caused by things like bad wiring. When we run line readings, we measure the physical characteristics of the line up to the point of your modem. We don't see anything past that, so if your computer's leaking smoke, it doesn't show up on the tests. It also tends to be a bit of a 'catch-all', in that it doesn't automatically tell us if it's the outside lines, the inside lines, or the modem itself causing the problem. A trained and experienced tech can often put together subtle clues and symptoms and give a reasonable prediction as to what the problem is, especially if you go through certain troubleshooting steps with him; but generally the easiest way to figure out EXACTLY where a physical problem is relies upon a field technician on-site testing each component (similarly, a good doctor can often diagnose problems over the phone if you accurately describe the symptoms, but it's still a lot better if he can see you in person!).

Data issues are caused by things like bad settings or software on a server or computer. They can also be caused by things like congestion (the internet equivalent of a traffic jam). Each server can really only handle so much traffic at once, and if you've got too many simultaneous connections all clamoring for content at the same time, the server can get overloaded and bog down - which results in slow speeds for everyone caught up in the jam. Similarly, your router and DSL connection are capped at a certain total bandwidth - so if you have other computers trying to share your connection simultaneously, each user's only going to get a slice of the pie, with resulting slower speeds when you try to test.

Troubleshooting for each type of problem is different. Physical issues involve things like unplugging all the phones at your location and trying different phone cords and different jacks between the modem and the wall. Data issues involve things like turning off all your other computers or bypassing your router (connecting the modem straight to just one computer). It's generally hard to confuse the two, if your tech is doing a good job of troubleshooting.

Now, the DSL tech did testing with you, and hypothesized it's a problem with the lines. That would suggest a physical issue. You then called 'an AT&T tech who ran a test' and proclaimed there was no problem with the lines? That raises a few questions:
1) Was this an AT&T VOICE tech, or DSL tech? The testing involved varies. Voice techs typically cannot see the data bitrate (which is the main thing you're concerned about); their equipment isn't set to check such.
2) Was this test run on-site with testing equipment, or remotely from a desktop computer?
3) Did the AT&T tech say that it was your BUILDING (apartment) wiring, or OUTSIDE wiring (leading back to the Central Office), or ALL of the wiring (both inside and outside), which was fine?

I know it's a lot of data to take all at once, but I do hope it helps clarify the situation. You're definitely running into a problem SOMEWHERE, and our testing at least was suggesting it's a physical issue. If the AT&T tech that claimed your line was 'perfect' was a DSL tech, he should have been able to give you precise line readings (exact downstream and upstream bitrate, noise margin, etc.). If he wasn't able to do that... I'd suggest contacting us and troubleshooting further, perhaps having us send out a field tech dispatch (DSL tech, not voice tech) on-site to check the lines and find & fix the problem.
jimrich
join:2012-08-09
Encino, CA

1 edit

jimrich

Member

said by dslx_nick:

As mentioned in another recent thread (»[DSL] From Verizon to DSL Extreme - Questions), we don't charge the ETF because we want to; we have to because AT&T charges us for it if a customer breaks contract, and we just pass it on. Still, I find discussion of such rather distasteful; rather than waste time and energy worrying about worst-case scenarios, I'd much rather focus on more constructive pursuits, such as getting you back online at full speed.

Of course, if you're having trouble trusting what two 'authorities' say, it can make it hard to figure out what's what. So! Let me give you some info, so you can have a bit more personal certainty and understanding about what's going on, and can make up your own mind about it.

If you're running into speed problems, there are different possible causes... but generally, there should be only one affecting you at any given time. Typically, you'll either encounter a physical issue, or a data issue.

Physical issues are caused by things like bad wiring. When we run line readings, we measure the physical characteristics of the line up to the point of your modem. We don't see anything past that, so if your computer's leaking smoke, it doesn't show up on the tests. It also tends to be a bit of a 'catch-all', in that it doesn't automatically tell us if it's the outside lines, the inside lines, or the modem itself causing the problem. A trained and experienced tech can often put together subtle clues and symptoms and give a reasonable prediction as to what the problem is, especially if you go through certain troubleshooting steps with him; but generally the easiest way to figure out EXACTLY where a physical problem is relies upon a field technician on-site testing each component (similarly, a good doctor can often diagnose problems over the phone if you accurately describe the symptoms, but it's still a lot better if he can see you in person!).

Data issues are caused by things like bad settings or software on a server or computer. They can also be caused by things like congestion (the internet equivalent of a traffic jam). Each server can really only handle so much traffic at once, and if you've got too many simultaneous connections all clamoring for content at the same time, the server can get overloaded and bog down - which results in slow speeds for everyone caught up in the jam. Similarly, your router and DSL connection are capped at a certain total bandwidth - so if you have other computers trying to share your connection simultaneously, each user's only going to get a slice of the pie, with resulting slower speeds when you try to test.

Troubleshooting for each type of problem is different. Physical issues involve things like unplugging all the phones at your location and trying different phone cords and different jacks between the modem and the wall. Data issues involve things like turning off all your other computers or bypassing your router (connecting the modem straight to just one computer). It's generally hard to confuse the two, if your tech is doing a good job of troubleshooting.

Now, the DSL tech did testing with you, and hypothesized it's a problem with the lines. That would suggest a physical issue. You then called 'an AT&T tech who ran a test' and proclaimed there was no problem with the lines? That raises a few questions:
1) Was this an AT&T VOICE tech, or DSL tech?
>>> I don't know what kind of "tech" she was. I asked if the test can spot DSL issue and she said the test just checks the lines, so I might get back to AT&T about a "voice or DSL" tech and test things again.

re: The testing involved varies. Voice techs typically cannot see the data bitrate (which is the main thing you're concerned about); their equipment isn't set to check such.
2) Was this test run on-site with testing equipment, or remotely from a desktop computer?
>>> Remotely probably with a computer. I had to hang up and wait for her to call back.
3) Did the AT&T tech say that it was your BUILDING (apartment) wiring, or OUTSIDE wiring (leading back to the Central Office), or ALL of the wiring (both inside and outside), which was fine?
>>> She didn't specify exactly what was tested and I assumed she knew what she was doing. I had explained that this was about a DSL problem. Seems the more I learn, the better I can tell others what I need or expect re: this issue.

I know it's a lot of data to take all at once, but I do hope it helps clarify the situation.
>>> Yes this does help.

re: You're definitely running into a problem SOMEWHERE, and our testing at least was suggesting it's a physical issue. If the AT&T tech that claimed your line was 'perfect' was a DSL tech, he should have been able to give you precise line readings (exact downstream and upstream bitrate, noise margin, etc.). If he wasn't able to do that... I'd suggest contacting us and troubleshooting further, perhaps having us send out a field tech dispatch (DSL tech, not voice tech) on-site to check the lines and find & fix the problem.

>>> Sending a tech here to check things out seems reasonable IF it's affordable! I declined to have AT&T field techs come here because of their (possible) fees just to tell me "all's well".
After the exhaustive and thorough checks with your DSLX tech (Mike) by cell phone during which I connected the modem directly to the entry or source connection for my phone line in the bedroom of this apartment, it seemed there was no place to look other than the AT&T phone lines. Mike then suggested I order a "field tech dispatch" from AT&T but I declined when told of the "possible" fees! What is stopping me are all these "fees" for this and that while I am suspicious of the corporations involved and, worse, all the complaints and criticism on line from other "ripped-off" customers. In some ways, I am willing to put up with the bad/low speeds rather than endure the corporate run around and service fees for tech visits, etc. I'm not getting what I am paying for but I am able to look at my bank account on line and email so watching Youtube videos will just have to wait until I get a better ISP - assuming there is such a thing.
I appreciate that you wrote back and would love to follow whatever tech. processes there are short of giving away more and more $$$ chasing my own tail in the hopes of better internet service.
Thank you,
JimRich

P.S. LOL, it seems that all the ISPs get very bad reviews and complaints on line so from unhappy customers so ......... wish me luck!
jimrich

jimrich to dslx_nick

Member

to dslx_nick
Thank you for responding to my post.

Re:
1) Was this an AT&T VOICE tech, or DSL tech?
>>> Not sure what she was but I told her it's about a DSL connection problem and asked if her test could check that. She said it just checks the condition of the wiring. My phone works good so I figured that is the best standard for the wiring.

2) Was this test run on-site with testing equipment, or remotely from a desktop computer?
>>> Not on site here so probably from a computer. I had to hang up the phone and wait for her to call me back.
3) Did the AT&T tech say that it was your BUILDING (apartment) wiring, or OUTSIDE wiring (leading back to the Central Office), or ALL of the wiring (both inside and outside), which was fine?
>>>She wasn't real specific and I didn't have enough knowledge to ask significant questions at that point. Maybe I'll call them back to see what else they can do.

re: I know it's a lot of data to take all at once, but I do hope it helps clarify the situation.
>> Yes this helps a lot so thank you.

You're definitely running into a problem SOMEWHERE, and our testing at least was suggesting it's a physical issue. If the AT&T tech that claimed your line was 'perfect' was a DSL tech, he should have been able to give you precise line readings (exact downstream and upstream bitrate, noise margin, etc.). If he wasn't able to do that...
>>> No, none of that stuff came up in the discussion with her.

I'd suggest contacting us and troubleshooting further, perhaps having us send out a field tech dispatch (DSL tech, not voice tech) on-site to check the lines and find & fix the problem.
>>> Your tech, Mike, recommended a field tech dispatch (from AT&T) but I declined when I heard about the "possible" fees. I feel like everyone is after my $$$ and this is just another scam to get it even if the tech tells me "all's well"!
Maybe I'll just wait it out and put up with what I've got even if it's not what I am paying for and find a better ISP when my contract is up with DSLX. But it seems like all the ISPs get lots of complaints from pissed off customers so wish me luck.........
Thanks for your post
emsvitil
join:2008-06-12
Inglewood, CA

emsvitil

Member

Does your voice line have static on it?

If so, read this:

»AT&T Midwest/Ameritech FAQ »DSL works only with phone off-hook, known as High Open
jimrich
join:2012-08-09
Encino, CA

jimrich

Member

P.S. No static on the voice line. It's always been good.
jimrich

jimrich to emsvitil

Member

to emsvitil
emsvitil
re: Does your voice line have static on it?
If so, read this:
»AT&T Midwest/Ameritech FAQ »DSL works only with phone off-hook, known as High Open

>>> I responded to you earlier but that post did not appear here so.......
There is no static on my phone line and I tried to use my DSL service with the phone on and off the craddle - there was no difference other than the annoyance of the phone off the hook!
Thanks for your concern

dslx_nick
ISP Employee
join:2011-12-24
Chatsworth, CA

dslx_nick

ISP Employee

quote:
After the exhaustive and thorough checks with your DSLX tech (Mike) by cell phone during which I connected the modem directly to the entry or source connection for my phone line in the bedroom of this apartment, it seemed there was no place to look other than the AT&T phone lines. Mike then suggested I order a "field tech dispatch" from AT&T...
Ah. Well, there you go: physical issue, not data issue. I'm glad Mike was very thorough in testing everything inside; that's exactly what I want to hear about our techs. As I pointed out earlier, for absolute certainty nothing beats a tech on-site with equipment to test each component individually, but a good tech can usually figure out roughly where the problem is with proper remote troubleshooting. A bad tech wouldn't have tried troubleshooting with you, he would've just given up right away saying, "I don't know"; our tech, however, did a good job and checked everything with you, so that he was able to deduce that it must be the outside wiring via process of elimination.
quote:
... but I declined when told of the "possible" fees! What is stopping me are all these "fees" for this and that while I am suspicious of the corporations involved and, worse, all the complaints and criticism on line from other "ripped-off" customers. In some ways, I am willing to put up with the bad/low speeds rather than endure the corporate run around and service fees for tech visits, etc. I'm not getting what I am paying for but I am able to look at my bank account on line and email so watching Youtube videos will just have to wait until I get a better ISP - assuming there is such a thing.
No need to worry. The whole REASON we want our techs to test the IW (Inside Wiring) so thoroughly is to protect you from unnecessary charges. When we send out an AT&T dispatch, there is no charge for outside line repairs. That's why we don't recommend such until we've done thorough testing until we're confident to the best of our ability that that's where the problem lies.

Please note that we make no money on dispatches; if the AT&T dispatch finds the problem is the inside wiring, not the outside, then he will still fix the issue, but there's a repair charge for it since that's part of the building wiring and not part of AT&T's phone line network. The charges for such inside wire repair work originate from AT&T, not us (they charge us, we pass the charge onto you... no profit on our end). If our testing indicates a problem with the inside wiring, then we let you know immediately, so you can decide what you want to do (leave it alone, or have us call out AT&T to fix it, or if you want to call some other local repairman to fix it, etc.).

If there's a problem with your outside phone lines, then switching to another ISP wouldn't make those go away, any more than picking a different doctor would magically make an illness vanish. Changing ISP's can fix data issues, but doesn't fix physical issues unless your physical equipment actually changes (such as if you move to a different building with different phone lines).