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ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

game server and clients -- about TCP nagle algorithm.

I plans to put a restricted on clients from joining the game server like as UT2004 and UT3 server, that nagle enabled clients are not allowed to join the game server for good reasons, to keep players free from lag issues that players should experience the lag-free zone place to isolates from the laggy area. If clents are disabled the nagle then they should be allowed to join the game server so players should have a fun gaming without laggy issues.

interesting this the plans on the structure of server-client setup?


Pyrion
Liquid Metal Nanomorph

join:2001-12-01
Poway, CA
kudos:1
And you're going to enforce this how?


udp

@anonymouse.org
reply to ikyuaoki
How can this lower lag when its TCP and games use UDP? The reason games use UDP over TCP is because its faster/lower over head thus lower lag.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

2 edits
That I wanted to ties TCP to UDP permenantly together unified.
In future, game studios may use the both TCP and UDP tied to be utilized together a same time. To remind, Clients needs to disable the nagle on the top of TCP to lower the latency effect side.

That's I wanted to enforce this rules for client side. I hereby say that nagle algorithm is totally obsoleted for digital broadband connectivity.

EDIT: I have disabled the nagle algorithm already as I implemented it.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
increase the report rate on your server
find a better host
increase the server processing overhead
increase the available bandwidth
increase the amount of accepted connections

that will have a much bigger effect on "lag" then disabling nagle.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
I have a load balance on the two internet connections and I'd sets the server program to high mode process in the task manager.


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
the server program to high does squat, it just gives it priority cpu time, you need to increase the update rate of the game itself

»forums.epicgames.com/threads/598365-Tickrate


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by BonezX:

the server program to high does squat, it just gives it priority cpu time, you need to increase the update rate of the game itself

»forums.epicgames.com/threads/598365-Tickrate

I have already to set the tickrate be 60 for both LAN/WAN and also that my computer running a quad core cpu in overclocked mode from 3.0Ghz to 3.4Ghz.

Also I set the ping ICMP echo request be disabled in windows 7 advanced firewall to not response to any clients who requests the echo with ping, tracert and pathping either.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to udp
Good question. the hard choice either between TCP or UDP will come to end, when the nagle algorithm is no longer part of TCP protocol and either the system administrator fully disables the nagle algorithm via the directly registry editor to add some keys or TCP protocol designer will remove the nagle algorithm out of the TCP/IP.sys file.

after that nagle algorithm era is over so the game developer can have a easier choose either or both the TCP/UDP protocols without facing the hard choices.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
reply to BonezX
BonezX, I have added some more ports in the UT2004 and UT3 in the engine initialization settings

I added up to 8 ports =)


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
then you have pretty much tweaked with everything on the server side possible, everything after that is outside your control.

restricting client nagle will seriously restrict the clients that can join which could be a bad thing considering the age of the game.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by BonezX:

restricting client nagle will seriously restrict the clients that can join which could be a bad thing considering the age of the game.

restricting the client nagle seem be good idea for mandatory reasons because nagle algorithm is never good thing for gaming online.

let's say... welcome post-dialup era that means the end of an nagle algorithm.


Jobbie
Keep It Simple
Premium
join:2010-08-24
Mexico
kudos:5
Welcome to an empty server


Pyrion
Liquid Metal Nanomorph

join:2001-12-01
Poway, CA
kudos:1
said by Jobbie:

Welcome to an empty server

This is even assuming he has the capacity to restrict clients from connecting if they haven't disabled it on their end. The hard part is determining specifically how to discern whether or not one has disabled it on their end.

Honestly, if this was a particularly big deal for gaming, then the onus should be on the developers to set TCP_NOUNSET for tcp traffic in their game clients. Which would be inherently hilarious (and a sign the devs are smoking grass), as TCP traffic generally ends up used solely for text chat integration, with latency-sensitive information sent via UDP.
--
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by Pyrion:

said by Jobbie:

Welcome to an empty server

This is even assuming he has the capacity to restrict clients from connecting if they haven't disabled it on their end. The hard part is determining specifically how to discern whether or not one has disabled it on their end.

Honestly, if this was a particularly big deal for gaming, then the onus should be on the developers to set TCP_NOUNSET for tcp traffic in their game clients. Which would be inherently hilarious (and a sign the devs are smoking grass), as TCP traffic generally ends up used solely for text chat integration, with latency-sensitive information sent via UDP.

That is incorrect, it should be "TCP_NODELAY" option...
but mostly game developers do not put the "TCP_NODELAY" option in the winsock coding if that game online is choosed to use TCP only over the UDP...

I wish that game developers should choose the unified protocol (TCP/UDP together) if they hereby to disable the nagle algorithm completely.


Pyrion
Liquid Metal Nanomorph

join:2001-12-01
Poway, CA
kudos:1
Quite, I blame my making that mistake on sleep dep and writing bash scripts.

Anyway, I think my underlying point still stands: how the hell are you going to enforce a no-nagling policy on a game server in the first place?
--
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3

1 edit
reply to ikyuaoki
never mind


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
reply to Pyrion
said by Pyrion:

Quite, I blame my making that mistake on sleep dep and writing bash scripts.

Anyway, I think my underlying point still stands: how the hell are you going to enforce a no-nagling policy on a game server in the first place?

I'll be insist enforce the no-nagle zone policy that is simple, especially if the game server operator wants to enforce the mandate policy then so it be, that is not your place to take it.

Since I were on the MMO servers since I turned the nagle off premanently and experienced no lag at all after that.

nagle can disrupts the outgoing packets to wait up to 200ms delay before sends the bundle of packet packs all at once that causes the laggy on the fast link opposite to the slow link.

nagle is designed for slow link only and nowdays, the internet is now fast links, not "slow" link anymore what i point it out.


Pyrion
Liquid Metal Nanomorph

join:2001-12-01
Poway, CA
kudos:1
said by ikyuaoki:

I'll be insist enforce the no-nagle zone policy that is simple, especially if the game server operator wants to enforce the mandate policy then so it be, that is not your place to take it.

So in other words, you have no means of actually enforcing this.
--
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell


BonezX
Basement Dweller
Premium
join:2004-04-13
Canada
kudos:1
reply to ikyuaoki
said by ikyuaoki:

nagle can disrupts the outgoing packets to wait up to 200ms delay before sends the bundle of packet packs all at once that causes the laggy on the fast link opposite to the slow link.

nagle doesn't "disrupt" it waits for an ACK from the server before sending the next batch, no ACK then it queues until it gets one upto the max timer(read somewhere it was 500ms).

"Nagle's algorithm works by combining a number of small outgoing messages, and sending them all at once. Specifically, as long as there is a sent packet for which the sender has received no acknowledgment, the sender should keep buffering its output until it has a full packet's worth of output, so that output can be sent all at once."

hence why i said that you increase the rate on the server.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
Yes I have done increased the server's rates but that comes to my mind on the TCP issues, nagle should be disabled for good on the fast WAN link networks rather than "slow link" topology.

especially i'm a gamer in matters. after the disabled nagle, the file transfer over the internet is not much a issues.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to ikyuaoki
BTW its worth noting that small packets eat a disproportionate amount of router CPU time.

Basically you can clog a router with small packets but large packets are more likely to reach the interface speed limit.

So if you plan to do this be sure your router has plenty of CPU power.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by DarkLogix:

BTW its worth noting that small packets eat a disproportionate amount of router CPU time.

Basically you can clog a router with small packets but large packets are more likely to reach the interface speed limit.

So if you plan to do this be sure your router has plenty of CPU power.

I don't need the router device, my single computer are connected to the two cable modems that is all. that will work with a small tiny TCP packet streams.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
Well then start worrying about security.


ikyuaoki

join:2011-04-12
Wichita, KS
Reviews:
·Cox HSI
said by DarkLogix:

Well then start worrying about security.

worry about security? obviously I have said that previous post this I stated that, I disabled the ICMP echo request on IPv4 and IPv6 already. an ICMP can be customized via the windows 7 advanced firewall security there. there is no worried about security issues right now.


mettachain
Goblineer

join:2011-09-27
Azeroth
kudos:1
reply to ikyuaoki
do a lot of computer science techies and coders speak in broken english like this?

do you lose the ability for basic sentence structure from typing in HTML5 and ANSCI all day?
--
Good evening!


Pyrion
Liquid Metal Nanomorph

join:2001-12-01
Poway, CA
kudos:1
reply to ikyuaoki
said by ikyuaoki:

I disabled the ICMP echo request on IPv4 and IPv6 already.

Might be worth it to connect another machine to yours via a crossover cable and check your machine with nmap. "Disabling ping" to satisfy security concerns is like hammering a sign on your front door saying "there is no potentially unlocked door here."
--
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to ikyuaoki
said by ikyuaoki:

said by DarkLogix:

Well then start worrying about security.

worry about security? obviously I have said that previous post this I stated that, I disabled the ICMP echo request on IPv4 and IPv6 already. an ICMP can be customized via the windows 7 advanced firewall security there. there is no worried about security issues right now.

LOL

Security by obscurity is total crap.

So just LOL