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Snowy
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join:2003-04-05
Kailua, HI
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reply to More Fiber

Re: Why Card Fraud Grows

said by More Fiber:

Legally nothing changes responsibility with chip cards.

Yes, Congress determines liabilty/limits.
said by More Fiber:

However, like debit cards today, the user will be responsible if the pin is compromised.

Assuming you're talking about a credit card & not a stored value card, there's no doubt issuers would like to see that codified but has Regulation E been modified to incorporate that change?

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to More Fiber

said by More Fiber:

Legally nothing changes responsibility with chip cards. The user is still only responsible for the first $50 on a fraudulent credit transaction. However, like debit cards today, the user will be responsible if the pin is compromised.

The problem for the user with a fraudulent chip transaction is going to be proving that the cryptographic algorithms on the chip have been compromised.

What are you talking about? I don't have PINS. I have credit cards. If I need to write a check I will do so....why would I use a debit card when I have a checkbook? Or I would pay with something called CASH. I use credit cards for their safety and their other advantages (like mileage, cash back), and because sometimes I need to carry a balance as I live on a modest income in a very expensive state. For those with tons of money why not just pay in cash? Why hassle with a debit card and hold up the line behind you (not to mention the inherent dangers in debit cards over cash or check or credit card)? Debit card users take a lot more time in a checkout line than do credit card users or even check writers. The rude people are generally those using debit cards.

Why would the customer have to prove that the cryptographic algorithms on the chip have been compromised? If I use my RFID card and wave it at the machine and then someone later charges $500 to my card from Spain why would I need to prove anything? I did not enter a PIN that could be compromised. There is no pin on this card. It is a credit card. If the bank told me I would have to use it like a debit card and enter a PIN that would be insane because one reason to use it is that it is contactless and supposedly faster and safer than a mag stripe credit card. I don't care about the faster as you still have to wait for the receipt which can take a long time, but I get tired of having to swipe a card several times to get it to "take" so waving it over the machine would be an advantage especially when under $50 so no need to sign (but you still need the receipt). I would return any credit card that requires a pin be attached to it and cancel the account.

What I see as the danger is not what you see (which I think you mean debit card only and you are not talking about credit cards). I think the danger in RFID cards is the problems with proper shielding. Who wants to carry a separate billfold for those cards? Men maybe, but women want a selection of nice billfolds to choose from and I have not seen any that have shielding that are attractive and fashionable and the right size for my purses. I'd rather carry a checkbook (builtin to the wallet) than a separate, bulky RFID shield that would be smaller than my wallet and require fumbling in my purse for taking up the time I might have saved by waving the card instead of swiping it.

How would a credit card holder, with RFID chip, who uses the card on a phone transaction, on a corded landline, or online where the 3 digit code on the back of the card is asked for by the website, or where the card holder uses a one time (or short time....Discover's is 6 months and I hope they shorten that) number have to prove later that the algorithims have been compromised if there is a fraudulent charge? The card holder might have to prove they used a corded landline (a good reason for keeping your landline) but other than that I don't see how the card holder would have to prove that the algorithms on the chip have been compromised as that has nothing to do with internet and phone purchases. Banks could require hardware be attached to one's computer/phone so that the card is inserted into the hardware when a purchase is made. American Express did that many years ago and I was a tester for it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Blackbird
Built for Speed
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join:2005-01-14
Fort Wayne, IN
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Frontier Communi..
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Entering a card number and PIN? Where do you do that? My credit cards don't have PINs. You enter the credit card number and card expiration date and, if the site is a trustworthy, smart site, you are also required to enter the the 3 digit number on the back. ...

That 3 digit number is what I was referring to. A bad choice of terms on my part in calling it a PIN...
--
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!" -- P.Henry, 1775


More Fiber
Premium,MVM
join:2005-09-26
West Chester, PA
kudos:29

1 recommendation

reply to Mele20

We're talking about two different things. RFID and EMV are two different things. EMV cards are commonly know in Europe as chip and PIN cards although not all EMV cards use PINs. EMV cards also known as smart cards and require a contact reader.

said by Mele20:

Why would the customer have to prove that the cryptographic algorithms on the chip have been compromised?

Because EMV will put us back where we were before congress passed the credit card liability law. If your chip and pin card is used at a merchant in Spain, you can dispute that charge and the chargeback will occur, but the merchant will have proof that your PIN was used since his system will show that the cryptogram from the EMV card contained a correctly encrypted PIN. Therefore, you must have entered your PIN at the POS terminal.
--
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who don't.


Snowy
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Kailua, HI
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Reviews:
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said by More Fiber:

Because EMV will put us back where we were before congress passed the credit card liability law.

Where are you getting that from?


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to Name Game

Informative 3 page thread here on EMV

Views on EMV (chip & pin) usage in the US?

»ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-···/1505804
--
Gladiator Security Forum
»www.gladiator-antivirus.com/


davews

join:2012-08-07
united kingd
reply to Name Game

I am amazed reading this thread how behind the times the USA is with credit cards. Here in the UK, and most of Europe, credit cards have ALWAYS come with PINs, so that you could use them in ATM machines to withdraw cash (at exhorbitant interest rates). For quite a few years now this has also been used with the EMV chip and pin system, which is now pretty well universal in stores for both credit and debit cards. Cheques (checks in your dictionary) are not accepted by most stores and there were plans to withdraw them, fortunately put on the back burner at the moment, but cheque usage is now pretty low and some bank accounts don't even come with them. We also have the Mastercard SecureCode and Verified with Visa online verification schemes for online purchases which are very common in the UK, as is supplying the CVV 3-digit code in online purchases.

It frustates me when buying from USA online sellers that they don't use these systems, which certainly help to reduce card fraud.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to More Fiber

Huh? Credit cards do NOT require pins. If there EVER is a change in that then a lot of folks, like myself, will instantly stop using credit cards. Since that is an extremely gigantic change for Americans and would prove very painful I can't believe that sort of nonsense would ever go over here. I still believe that you are talking about debit cards. EMV is NOT on table in this country. RFID is.

I do not believe for one minute that Americans would allow this utter nonsense and basically evilness. I can see Americans accepting EMV for debit cards but NEVER for credit cards. Debit cards in this nation do NOT have the protections under federal law that credit cards have. That is why only foolish people get debit cards.

--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to davews

Europe never had ATM cards for use to withdraw cash from checking or savings? That is sure backwards of Europe. How does someone in Europe get cash from their checking or savings account? They have to actually go into the bank during banking hours? Why would anyone want a credit card to use to get cash from? That is nuts. A credit card is credit card. If you need cash, you use an ATM card in a terminal and get cash from your checking or savings account OR you use a debit card. Europeans actually fell for such absurdity as using a credit card...not a debit card to get cash? You were not able to refuse having a pin attached to a credit card? That is mind boggling insanity.

Americans already have the ability to withdraw cash at the merchant's terminal (not all merchants but many large ones) using a CREDIT card and NO pin and the very same interest rate that is on the credit card. I don't like this feature on my card. It drives me nuts as I am always forgetting to click no for cash back and the transaction is delayed until I finally notice and click no. If I need cash I will simply walk over to my bank's ATM a few steps away and get cash from my checking account. This particular credit card has a reasonable interest rate and that same reasonable rate for cash back on the card but why would I ever want cash back on a credit card? That makes no sense. Cash back on a DEBIT card would be different as that is similar to walking over to the bank ATM terminal and using my bank's ATM card but lacks the safe guards of using the ATM card instead of the debit card.

Online USA sellers that are smart require the 3 digit code on the back of the card. Don't patronize those that are too lazy to set that up. Tell that online seller that won't give them your business until they require the 3 digit code. They will require it quickly enough if they lose business because they don't currently require it. Now Verified for Visa and SecureCode for MasterCard we also already have. What we do NOT have is Europe's harebrained scheme of forcing pin numbers on credit cards...if you want a pin on it we have that for many years but we don't force the crap system that Europe has that is so unfair to consumers on USA citizens. Just as we don't deny senior citizens cataract surgery until they cannot drive, cannot see to read, use a computer, watch TV, and fall and break a hip, like England does to save money.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Snowy

said by Snowy:

Assuming you're talking about a credit card & not a stored value card, there's no doubt issuers would like to see that codified but has Regulation E been modified to incorporate that change?

I can't believe a change as important as this would happen without a lot of debate in this country. If somehow it has happened, and I am unaware of it, then how come I can use my PIN LESS credit cards? And how come the issuing banks have not sent me notices of changes in liability? I actually read those...I may not remember all I read...but I read it when it comes and I would certainly have noticed any massive change like this!

What's a "stored value card"? I've never heard of it.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Name Game

said by Name Game:

Informative 3 page thread here on EMV

Views on EMV (chip & pin) usage in the US?

»ficoforums.myfico.com/t5/Credit-···/1505804

Thanks. That was an interesting thread. I don't get the chip plus signature since you don't sign unless over $50 so how would it be useful? Almost none of my purchases are over $50..except maybe something like a new computer online where this new system wouldn't apply, or a deposit on a hotel room, or airfare...again online. Plus, signatures on current terminals bear no resemblance to your real signature. The point of RFID is contactless charge ...no signature, and no swipe, and NO PIN needed. So, super fast. (Whether prudent and safe remains to be seen). Chip plus signature would be slow and chip plus PIN would be even slower while people fumble around trying to remember the pin on that card (they have 10 cards) and punch it in wrong when they finally recall it and have to do it again. Writing a check would be much faster as you already have it written out before getting in line except for the amount.

So what about RFID cards ....can they be used in Europe? Folks in that thread were complaining that their cards don't work in Europe. So, RFID ones (with magnetic strip for USA terminals that cannot do RFID) do not work there? It doesn't matter to me because I will not be traveling to Europe but I am curious.

That thread was confusing about saying EMV cards will be here en mass in 2013. I thought it was RFID cards that would be here en mass in 2013 because currently there are not a lot of merchants where you can do a contactless charge but I had read this would change dramatically in 2013 but according to that thread EMV cards will be big and RFID ones will go away before even really getting started here?
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Snowy
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Kailua, HI
kudos:6
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1 recommendation

reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

said by Snowy:

Assuming you're talking about a credit card & not a stored value card, there's no doubt issuers would like to see that codified but has Regulation E been modified to incorporate that change?

I can't believe a change as important as this would happen without a lot of debate in this country.

It hasn't happened.
The point is that at some time (certainly not in a an election year) it will be up for debate. Meanwhile it's important to not buy into the belief that's it's already a done deal or inevitable because it's not. That's what the forces who want changes in liability to occur want you to believe.
said by Mele20:

What's a "stored value card"? I've never heard of it.

Any type of prepaid card.


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
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Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

said by Snowy:

said by Mele20:

What's a "stored value card"? I've never heard of it.

Any type of prepaid card.

One would've thought that was self-explanatory but apparently not.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


Snowy
Premium
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Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
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1 recommendation

reply to davews

said by davews:

I am amazed reading this thread how behind the times the USA is with credit cards.

You do realize that the US has the best consumer protection in the world re liability for fraudulent use of credit cards?
Personally, would I trade that protection for newer technology?
Not on your life.


Name Game
Premium
join:2002-07-07
Grand Rapids, MI
kudos:7
reply to Name Game

More Americans opting out of banking system

In the aftermath of one of the worst recessions in history, more Americans have limited or no interaction with banks, instead relying on check cashers and payday lenders to manage their finances, according to a new federal report.

Not only are these Americans more vulnerable to high fees and interest rates, but they are also cut off from credit to buy a car or a home or pay for college, the report from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said.

Released Wednesday, the study found that 821,000 households opted out of the banking system from 2009 to 2011 and that the so-called unbanked population grew to 8.2 percent of U.S. households.

That means that roughly 17 million adults are without a checking or savings account. Another 51 million adults have a bank account, but use pawnshops, payday lenders or rent-to-own services, the FDIC said. This underbanked population has grown from 18.2 percent to 20.1 percent of households nationwide.

The study also found that one in four households, or 28.3 percent, either had one or no bank account. A third of these households said they do not have enough money to open and fund an account. Minorities, the unemployed, young people and lower-income households are least likely to have accounts.

»www.washingtonpost.com/business/···ory.html
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StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

said by Name Game:

...
Not only are these Americans more vulnerable to high fees and interest rates, but they are also cut off from credit to buy a car or a home or pay for college, the report from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said.
...

LOL

Pretty funny since most banks won't lend a cent unless you already have one.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


Snowy
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Kailua, HI
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reply to Name Game

said by Name Game:

More Americans opting out of banking system
...

These folks depend on prepaid cards cards which lend themselves to easy abuse by the issuers.
Shaving a few cents off of the available balance can add up to tens millions of dollars annually.
With statements generally not available it's up to the consumer to manually track charges with discrepancies of a few cents not considered a big deal.


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

said by Snowy:

With statements generally not available it's up to the consumer to manually track charges with discrepancies of a few cents not considered a big deal.

Well that's generally true of prepaid anything. Phone card, pre-paid phone etc. That said I've received gift cards over the years and was able to use them up completely by splitting payment between the gift card and some other form of payment.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


carpetshark3
Premium
join:2004-02-12
Idledale, CO
reply to StuartMW

said by StuartMW:

said by Name Game:

...
Not only are these Americans more vulnerable to high fees and interest rates, but they are also cut off from credit to buy a car or a home or pay for college, the report from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. said.
...

LOL

Pretty funny since most banks won't lend a cent unless you already have one.

LOL

We didn't get a credit rating years ago. Paid off student loans before interest started accruing. Scrimped, saved, paid off in lump sum. No credit rating for you!


StuartMW
Who Is John Galt?
Premium
join:2000-08-06
Galt's Gulch
kudos:2

said by carpetshark3:

No credit rating for you!

Well my credit reports have nothing bad in them and my credit score was 800+ last time I checked. Even so I'd be laughed at if I went to my local bank and applied for a loan. One bank manager I know even said as much.

Banks aren't lending to anyone right now.
--
Don't feed trolls--it only makes them grow!


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

Huh? Credit cards do NOT require pins.

Oh really? Mine does, and many do here in Canada. It's a chip card.
--
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.


Dustyn
Premium
join:2003-02-26
Ontario, CAN
kudos:11

said by Juggernaut:

said by Mele20:

Huh? Credit cards do NOT require pins.

Oh really? Mine does, and many do here in Canada. It's a chip card.

Same.
My VISA card REQUIRES a PIN code in order to process a transaction. It has the magnetic strip and the chip.
--
Remember that cool hidden "Graffiti Wall" here on BBR? After the name change I became the "owner", so to speak as it became: Dustyn's Wall »[Serious] RIP


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

Yep, unless the POS reader doesn't have the chip reader, or is not functional yet.
--
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to StuartMW

said by StuartMW:

said by Snowy:

said by Mele20:

What's a "stored value card"? I've never heard of it.

Any type of prepaid card.

One would've thought that was self-explanatory but apparently not.

I've never had one so why would I be familiar with that phrase? I don't get the point of those kinds of cards.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2

1 edit

Think on-line purchases to limit liability amounts, or credit-challenged folks. Or, Pay Pal and the like.

*edited to add.
--
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.


Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Dustyn

said by Dustyn:

said by Juggernaut:

said by Mele20:

Huh? Credit cards do NOT require pins.

Oh really? Mine does, and many do here in Canada. It's a chip card.

Same.
My VISA card REQUIRES a PIN code in order to process a transaction. It has the magnetic strip and the chip.

In Canada? I was talking about USA. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I have an RFID card that also has a magnetic strip. It doesn't have a pin. It is the card of the future in the USA during transition to RFID cards that do not require a pin and that will eventually not have a stripe. There are maybe 25-30 merchants in this area where you can wave it. Everywhere else you need to swipe it but no pin required either way. I haven't used it yet as it was sent when my card expired as a replacement for the Platinum card I had which was nicer looking. It's the ugliest card I have, smaller than standard size, and thinner. It would be easier to lose because of the non standard size and the dreary, dark color.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Dustyn
Premium
join:2003-02-26
Ontario, CAN
kudos:11

said by Mele20:

In Canada? I was talking about USA. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's okay, I was referencing Canada not USA as was Juggernaut See Profile. So there are credit cards that DO require PINS.


Juggernaut
Irreverent or irrelevant?
Premium
join:2006-09-05
Kelowna, BC
kudos:2
reply to Mele20

As has been discussed many times here, RFID cards are very insecure. My CC company sent me a chip card 6 months after sending me their new RFID card.
--
Better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.



Snowy
Premium
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Kailua, HI
kudos:6
Reviews:
·Clearwire Wireless
·Time Warner Cable
reply to Mele20

said by Mele20:

I don't get the point of those kinds of cards.

There are many advantages/disadvantages to using a prepaid card.
The reasons I routinely them are:
1. Online purchases.
I don't use CC's/debit card for online purchases as a mater of security.
2. To disassociate myself from certain purchases either online or bricknmortar.
The only disadvantage is the ~$5 premium to purchase the card,
I'll mitigate that by buying high value cards to reduce the cost as a percentage of the dollar amount.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Juggernaut

Yes, I was the person who started the main threads here regarding RFID cards. I started a long thread here several years ago on them and then again when I got mine which was about a year ago. At the beginning of the last thread I started, I was very skeptical of the card and its safety. But that turned out to be because of my ignorance. I was sure I knew about RFID cards and didn't want one. However, technology changes rapidly and I was going on my knowledge from the first thread several years ago.

Luckily, I didn't let the negative comments in the more recent thread (that had nothing to back them up) make me believe these cards were still bad. Instead I researched and read a great deal. I suggest you do the same although I am referring to RFID cards in the USA not in Canada or Europe where the system is DRASTICALLY different and NOT better for USA because of the differences. OLDER RFID cards are insecure and, of course, USA banks would love for you to believe that is still the case because they want liability changed to be borne by the customer. So, if they can convince you that RFID cards TODAY THE VERY LATEST TECHNOLOGY IN THEM are unsafe then they have a sucker who is thrilled to be told that in order to get a "safe" card that the sucker has to accept liability and that is "minor" because, of course, with the vastly "safer" chip card it doesn't matter if liability is shifted to the user. Yeah, and pigs fly. Educate yourself. But then your country has already snookered everyone there as has most of Europe. So, I suppose there is no hope for you. Americans have not yet been snookered and, hopefully, we will not allow that to happen.

It sounds like I am the only one in this thread who actually went and read the link Name Game See Profile gave to that forum discussion. ( Snowy See Profile doesn't need to read it but others should). That explains some of why Europe's approach is quite different from USA and why USA does not need to nor should take Europe's approach.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson