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lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA
reply to MSeng

Re: Global Shortage of Electrons as Microsoft releases Goodies

said by MSeng:

It's merely your opinion that it's an unnecessary change. To the manufacturer, it's a natural progression of the OS life.

I'm pretty certain there was no technical requirement to eliminate the Start button without any opportunity to restore it. They left open the possibility to drop back to the familiar desktop, but coded out the Start button and omitted any way to make it the default. These don't seem like necessities to me, they seem like deliberate choices to force users to deal with a UI that was radically changed to make it more functional on phones (3% market share for MS) and tablets (1%).

So just like with Vista, we're going to be advising clients to continue to purchase PCs with Win7 for as long as possible.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

Actually there is a good reason to get rid of the start button and it has to do with IMHO multi-touch driven Hardware and their GUI's (gestures play into this as well). If your going to have touch driven apps, then really you can only have one app running on the touch device at a time as what does a multi-touch mean for example if it involves multiple apps on the screen and more then one gets touched? This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool



BillRoland
Premium
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL
kudos:3
Reviews:
·Cox HSI

said by Link Logger:

Actually there is a good reason to get rid of the start button and it has to do with IMHO multi-touch driven Hardware and their GUI's (gestures play into this as well). If your going to have touch driven apps, then really you can only have one app running on the touch device at a time as what does a multi-touch mean for example if it involves multiple apps on the screen and more then one gets touched? This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake

Its my opinion that Microsoft was terrified that if they gave people the option, most people would never interact with the Metro interface and the Metro apps. That's what this is all about, after all; get users into the Microsoft ecosystem. They're trying it this way because they've failed every other way; they couldn't make any inroads against the iPod, they have yet to make any significant inroads against the iPhone, and it remains to be seen if they'll make any inroads to the iPad (I actually think they might here). Ballmer seems to want his legacy to be that he moved Microsoft bread and butter, Windows and Office, beyond the PC. So far, he has little to show for it.

And for the record, I'm a Microsoft fanboy. I'm actually one of the 7 people who will actually admit they like Vista.
--
Ron Paul 2012 »www.ronpaul2012.com
Beyond AM. Beyond FM. (((XM)))

lorennerol
Premium
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA

1 recommendation

reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake

And this has to be a debacle for desktop and laptop users along the way because why? I *rarely* see the desktop on my computers- every screen I have is covered with apps all the time. That's the brilliance of the pinned apps and docs in Win7; I never need to minimize everything to look at the desktop. And that's the idiocy of Metro on a desktop or laptop. On a tablet smartphone I'm there, make it the default, heck even require it. But on real computers Metro is a giant step backwards in usability and efficiency. If it wasn't, we'd all have our desktops covered with 'gadgets' and I can't think of the last time I saw anyone using them.

And I agree with the other poster; MS knows this is so and that if a classic desktop was available the vast majority of people would enable it, set it default, and never look back.

Apple are laughing all the way to increased marketshare over this one.


Ctrl Alt Del
Premium
join:2002-02-18
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

as when Apple releases something the internet barely gives a 'meh',

When Apple releases a new iPhone people stand in line, but Mountain Lion was certainly a 'meh'. Mountain Lion is just an evolutionary increase over Lion. Lion did all the hard work and introduced the automatic saving and resuming features. Lion also sucked. It introduced such hilariously bad bugs as FileVault passwords being stored in plaintext and new features simply not working. I refused to use it.

said by Link Logger:

but when Microsoft releases something the internet takes notice.

With Windows 8 it's justifiable. Windows 8 is a fundamental shift. It's being ported to an entire new platform (ARM) and introducing a new environment (formerly known as Metro). And it's being forced down everyones throat, for better or worse, come October.

said by Link Logger:

I also find it interesting how Mac Fan Boys claim Vista was a disaster when Vista has as many users or more then Mac OSX, so does that also make Mac OSX a disaster?

When the PC market is ~90% even a failure can have massive market share. Every PC sold after Vista was introduced shipped with Vista (and possibly an XP downgrade).

said by Link Logger:

Like I said a lot of noise for not much game.

I sure hope Apple doesn't bring too much game. If they keep adding skeuomorphism to their UI I'm going to punch someone at Apple HQ.
--
less talk, more music

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

The next question is why do we have Apple fan boys hanging out in the Microsoft forum or is it just lonely in the Apple forum?

Blake

Maybe this?

"My MacBook Air and my iPad are basically my fifth and sixth limbs. I rarely go anywhere without them, I use each for hours every day,
and in general I'm really happy with both of them.

Come October 26th, though, I'm ditching them both. I don't know yet if I'm buying a Microsoft Surface or a Lenovo ThinkPad Tablet or an Asus Transformer Book, or something else entirely. But I'm buying a Windows 8 device as my only computer, and I can't wait.....I'll be switching because Windows 8 is the first desktop operating system that understands what a computer is supposed to do in 2012, and it’s at once more productive and more fun than any OS I’ve used before."

»www.theverge.com/2012/8/16/32461···indows-8
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Mashiki
Balking The Enemy's Plans

join:2002-02-04
Woodstock, ON
kudos:1
Reviews:
·TekSavvy Cable
·Rogers Hi-Speed
·Bright House
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

There are more Vista Users (8.12%) in the world then there are MacOSX users (6.92%), iOS users are only 2.64%, so whats the deal with Apple, lot of noise for not much game it seems. Windows 7 is by far and away the most used OS on the planet at 51.14% and XP is still second at 29.1% and Linux doesn't even register on the graph.

You'll probably find this interesting then. Within Steam, Win7 makes up nearly 75% of the total user base(x64 making up 55% of that). Remember there are ~40m accounts, the sample size is around 30% of the total user base, out of voluntary queries. Between the two, yours and this, that's pretty damn close to being the same.

This will probably become even more accurate as Steam is expanding to include general applications to their database as well.


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to lorennerol

said by lorennerol:

And this has to be a debacle for desktop and laptop users along the way because why? I *rarely* see the desktop on my computers- every screen I have is covered with apps all the time. That's the brilliance of the pinned apps and docs in Win7; I never need to minimize everything to look at the desktop. And that's the idiocy of Metro on a desktop or laptop. On a tablet smartphone I'm there, make it the default, heck even require it. But on real computers Metro is a giant step backwards in usability and efficiency. If it wasn't, we'd all have our desktops covered with 'gadgets' and I can't think of the last time I saw anyone using them.

And I agree with the other poster; MS knows this is so and that if a classic desktop was available the vast majority of people would enable it, set it default, and never look back.

Apple are laughing all the way to increased marketshare over this one.

Why would a desktop user who runs concurrent apps all over their desktop switch from Windows 7 to Windows 8? They also wouldn't switch to an iPad for the same reason as its not how they use a their computer. So how exactly is Apple going to increase market share, by people switching from Windows 7 to a Mac, don't think that makes much sense.

As for Gadgets, I do run some of those, for example Tweetz and weather gadgets. Now I'll have a hard time switching to Metro as I always have tons of apps open at the same time across multiple monitors so Metro (or even an iPad for that matter) doesn't fit my current mode of operation, but Windows 7 does, so I'll likely leave this computer running Windows 7. I will be buying surface and surface pro machines to try out and will setup another system with Windows 8 as I do have development projects for those platforms.

As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8? As soon as I can get some 30" touch screens I'll be hooking those bad boys up and seeing what they can do with Windows 8.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX
kudos:4

said by Link Logger:

...As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8?

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?
--
Breaker One Nine.


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

said by SipSizzurp:

said by Link Logger:

...As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8?

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?

Well, geez, whatever you do, don't try to buy a copy of Windows 7 separate from the computer purchase, I mean, that'd be too easy.
--
♬ Music is life ♬


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3
reply to SipSizzurp

said by SipSizzurp:

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?

I don't think your going to find many Walmart computers running Windows 8 unless they have the suitable hardware interfaces, ie touch screens, in which case Windows 8 might be a welcomed OS. Or in other words I don't think you will find that every PC sold after Oct 26th will be running Windows 8.

Blake
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Why would a desktop user who runs concurrent apps all over their desktop switch from Windows 7 to Windows 8? They also wouldn't switch to an iPad for the same reason as its not how they use a their computer. So how exactly is Apple going to increase market share, by people switching from Windows 7 to a Mac, don't think that makes much sense.
Blake

Why would a desktop user with XP Pro who seldom looks at their desktop, (and if they do it is swept totally clean of anything except the wallpaper thanks to Desksweeper which I have been using since I got my first computer in the late 90's), switch to Windows 8? I may get stuck with Windows 8 because I need a new computer, but now is NOT the time to buy it turns out. I want more than 16GB RAM which means I have to wait for machines that can take it and for the RAM to be available also...Dell says "before Christmas" but not currently. The machine I want, currently has a serious, either hardware or BIOS, defect and Dell is still dithering around on fixing it ...going on over three months now (I gotta have working PCIe 1 ports).

Finding a good, fast multimedia desktop these days is very difficult unless you are an Enterprise customer wanting a Precision. Alienware...still stuck on Sandy Bridge processors and I don't really need a machine that expensive (Aurora) ...so, I keep waiting and soon only Windows 8 will be offered. I would be surprised to see OEMs offering downgrades to Windows 7.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
kudos:4
Reviews:
·Frontier FiOS

said by Mele20:

and soon only Windows 8 will be offered.

No, you will still be able to purchase Windows 7 separately. Heck, I could buy a copy of Vista right now if I wanted.
--
♬ Music is life ♬

SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX
kudos:4
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

Or in other words I don't think you will find that every PC sold after Oct 26th will be running Windows 8.

Thanks for the clarification. That possibility had not occurred to me.
--
Breaker One Nine.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to darcilicious

said by darcilicious:

said by Mele20:

and soon only Windows 8 will be offered.

No, you will still be able to purchase Windows 7 separately. Heck, I could buy a copy of Vista right now if I wanted.

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson


Link Logger
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB
kudos:3

said by Mele20:

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.

Its not just Microsoft that want you to buy new OS's as Dell doesn't want to support old OS's either as it would cost them more then it would make. Every OS vendor have end of support dates for their products as do pretty much every manufacturer of anything.

Blake
I rather like my Alienware M18X laptop, I'm not a gamer, just a developer who likes fast hardware.
--
Vendor: Author of Link Logger which is a traffic analysis and firewall logging tool

itguy05

join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA
reply to Link Logger

said by Link Logger:

There are more Vista Users (8.12%) in the world then there are MacOSX users (6.92%), iOS users are only 2.64%, so whats the deal with Apple, lot of noise for not much game it seems. Windows 7 is by far and away the most used OS on the planet at 51.14% and XP is still second at 29.1% and Linux doesn't even register on the graph.

The great thing about "statistics" and lies is that they both are made up. Seriously though there are plenty of stats out there fro firms such as IDC, Gartner, and a few others that track unit sales. They pretty much all say that Windows PC sales are slightly down and Mac sales are slightly up. And that has been a trend for a while.

Microsoft's not going anywhere in the short term, but like General Motors, have a few flops and you won't be on the top. IMHO it can't happen soon enough to Microsoft as they pretty much have been a plague on the industry from the beginning. And, I remember computers before DOS was prevalent, and thought Windows was the best until I gained experience with other platforms. Then it became apparent how bad it truly is.

That's my final $0.02.

Mele20
Premium
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI
kudos:5
reply to Link Logger

I don't know what you mean. Dell is not selling basic hardware warranty on the new XPS 8500. They will probably not be on the Alienware either when it is upgraded (currently it is stuck on last year's processors unless they upgraded it since I last checked about a week ago) and it still offers basic hardware warranty. Dell is now selling, on the XPS, ONLY Premium warranty (on the XPS 8300 they offered basic or Premium but no basic on the new 8500) which can be bought for up to 5 years. No India anymore thank goodness. North American 24/7, 365 days, next business day in home technician if needed.

The Premium extended hardware warranty INCLUDES support for software as well as mandatory purchase of the same number of years support for (if you have a desktop) irrelevant stuff like droppage, spillage, surge protection, etc. (Who drops a 30 pound desktop or pours liquid accidentally on it, or doesn't have it on a UPS, etc)? Obviously, if you buy 5 years Pro extended warranty and the machine comes with Windows 7 then Dell supports Windows 7 for 5 years because Pro support includes software.

I think Dell may soon offer just basic hardware extended warranty on the XPS 8500, as well as the Pro extended warranty, but basic warranty will be for India support which is a nightmare. I would like to see them offer extended warranty with North American support and NO software or spillage, droppage, etc coverage also required (and no software support...I just want the hardware extended warranty but no India). But I don't see that happening. The configurator forces you to buy the accidental damage coverage for the same number of years you are buying the hardware warranty which includes software support. It may be possible to get out of the accidental damage support by calling Dell which I will do before purchasing. It should not be forced on desktop buyers.
--
When governments fear people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. Thomas Jefferson



Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Link Logger

I'm buying that Technet sub as soon as I get back home on Sunday.



Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

said by Octavean:

I'm buying that Technet sub as soon as I get back home on Sunday.

Buy now. It takes two to three days for your account to be set up on their side. I had to call in as their website has been having issues processing credit cards. Initially a hold was put on my card and then I received a cancellation e-mail. I ended up calling on Monday, but didn't get access until yesterday.
--
Want the shirt? - »www.despair.com/thedestructor.html
Not afiliated or making any profit from sales
Expand your moderator at work


plencnerb
Premium
join:2000-09-25
Carpentersville, IL
kudos:3
reply to Mele20

Re: Global Shortage of Electrons as Microsoft releases Goodies

said by Mele20:

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.

Just a side note here, but maybe a useful suggestion.

You seem to know exactly what kind of hardware you want, so why not build the system yourself? If I was you, I would check out either newegg or tigerdirect, and build the system myself. Why wait for Dell (or any other OEM) to come out with the system you want. If you know what you want, go price the parts yourself, and get exactly what you want.

--Brian
--
============================
--Brian Plencner

E-Mail: CoasterBrian72Cancer@gmail.com
Note: Kill Cancer to Reply via e-mail

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10
reply to Link Logger

The question is, is Server 8 out on MSDN yet...



JohnInSJ
Premium
join:2003-09-22
Aptos, CA

said by sk1939:

The question is, is Server 8 out on MSDN yet...

Doesn't seem to be, no.
--
My place : »www.schettino.us

sk1939
Premium
join:2010-10-23
Mclean, VA
kudos:10

Ah, good to know.

Expand your moderator at work


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Kilroy

Re: Global Shortage of Electrons as Microsoft releases Goodies

said by Kilroy:

said by Octavean:

I'm buying that Technet sub as soon as I get back home on Sunday.

Buy now. It takes two to three days for your account to be set up on their side. I had to call in as their website has been having issues processing credit cards. Initially a hold was put on my card and then I received a cancellation e-mail. I ended up calling on Monday, but didn't get access until yesterday.

I would buy now but I just don't trust the WiFi access we have here at our vacation spot. It'll have to keep until I get back home.

Months ago, I actually bought a Technet sub from Amazon (direct fromAmazon as the seller) but they botched it by sending me a Technet sub renewal which I couldn't use. Their discription was wrong because I double and triple checked what I was ordering from them. I got a full refund but it was annoying.

Once i get it, I know it will take some time (days) to activate though.


MSeng
Premium,Ex-Mod 2001-08
join:2000-07-13
Ork
kudos:6
reply to Kilroy

said by Kilroy:

said by Octavean:

I'm buying that Technet sub as soon as I get back home on Sunday.

Buy now. It takes two to three days for your account to be set up on their side. I had to call in as their website has been having issues processing credit cards. Initially a hold was put on my card and then I received a cancellation e-mail. I ended up calling on Monday, but didn't get access until yesterday.

Whatever issues they may have had must be resolved. I subscribed this evening and it took effect immediately. I'm in the process of downloading Windows 8 as I type this.
--
A)bort, R)etry, I)nfluence with large hammer.


Octavean
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-31
New York, NY
kudos:1
reply to Kilroy

OK, I ordered the Technet subscription. I hope I get it in the next couple of days because I’ll be out of town again early next week.