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lorennerol
Premium Member
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA

lorennerol to MSeng

Premium Member

to MSeng

Re: Global Shortage of Electrons as Microsoft releases Goodies

said by MSeng:

It's merely your opinion that it's an unnecessary change. To the manufacturer, it's a natural progression of the OS life.

I'm pretty certain there was no technical requirement to eliminate the Start button without any opportunity to restore it. They left open the possibility to drop back to the familiar desktop, but coded out the Start button and omitted any way to make it the default. These don't seem like necessities to me, they seem like deliberate choices to force users to deal with a UI that was radically changed to make it more functional on phones (3% market share for MS) and tablets (1%).

So just like with Vista, we're going to be advising clients to continue to purchase PCs with Win7 for as long as possible.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

Actually there is a good reason to get rid of the start button and it has to do with IMHO multi-touch driven Hardware and their GUI's (gestures play into this as well). If your going to have touch driven apps, then really you can only have one app running on the touch device at a time as what does a multi-touch mean for example if it involves multiple apps on the screen and more then one gets touched? This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake

BillRoland
Premium Member
join:2001-01-21
Ocala, FL

BillRoland

Premium Member

said by Link Logger:

Actually there is a good reason to get rid of the start button and it has to do with IMHO multi-touch driven Hardware and their GUI's (gestures play into this as well). If your going to have touch driven apps, then really you can only have one app running on the touch device at a time as what does a multi-touch mean for example if it involves multiple apps on the screen and more then one gets touched? This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake

Its my opinion that Microsoft was terrified that if they gave people the option, most people would never interact with the Metro interface and the Metro apps. That's what this is all about, after all; get users into the Microsoft ecosystem. They're trying it this way because they've failed every other way; they couldn't make any inroads against the iPod, they have yet to make any significant inroads against the iPhone, and it remains to be seen if they'll make any inroads to the iPad (I actually think they might here). Ballmer seems to want his legacy to be that he moved Microsoft bread and butter, Windows and Office, beyond the PC. So far, he has little to show for it.

And for the record, I'm a Microsoft fanboy. I'm actually one of the 7 people who will actually admit they like Vista.
lorennerol
Premium Member
join:2003-10-29
Seattle, WA

1 recommendation

lorennerol to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

This is a difficult interface problem and so best to setup the GUI to only allow one app at a time until we figure out more about multiple apps sharing a multi touch screen for example.

Blake

And this has to be a debacle for desktop and laptop users along the way because why? I *rarely* see the desktop on my computers- every screen I have is covered with apps all the time. That's the brilliance of the pinned apps and docs in Win7; I never need to minimize everything to look at the desktop. And that's the idiocy of Metro on a desktop or laptop. On a tablet smartphone I'm there, make it the default, heck even require it. But on real computers Metro is a giant step backwards in usability and efficiency. If it wasn't, we'd all have our desktops covered with 'gadgets' and I can't think of the last time I saw anyone using them.

And I agree with the other poster; MS knows this is so and that if a classic desktop was available the vast majority of people would enable it, set it default, and never look back.

Apple are laughing all the way to increased marketshare over this one.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

said by lorennerol:

And this has to be a debacle for desktop and laptop users along the way because why? I *rarely* see the desktop on my computers- every screen I have is covered with apps all the time. That's the brilliance of the pinned apps and docs in Win7; I never need to minimize everything to look at the desktop. And that's the idiocy of Metro on a desktop or laptop. On a tablet smartphone I'm there, make it the default, heck even require it. But on real computers Metro is a giant step backwards in usability and efficiency. If it wasn't, we'd all have our desktops covered with 'gadgets' and I can't think of the last time I saw anyone using them.

And I agree with the other poster; MS knows this is so and that if a classic desktop was available the vast majority of people would enable it, set it default, and never look back.

Apple are laughing all the way to increased marketshare over this one.

Why would a desktop user who runs concurrent apps all over their desktop switch from Windows 7 to Windows 8? They also wouldn't switch to an iPad for the same reason as its not how they use a their computer. So how exactly is Apple going to increase market share, by people switching from Windows 7 to a Mac, don't think that makes much sense.

As for Gadgets, I do run some of those, for example Tweetz and weather gadgets. Now I'll have a hard time switching to Metro as I always have tons of apps open at the same time across multiple monitors so Metro (or even an iPad for that matter) doesn't fit my current mode of operation, but Windows 7 does, so I'll likely leave this computer running Windows 7. I will be buying surface and surface pro machines to try out and will setup another system with Windows 8 as I do have development projects for those platforms.

As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8? As soon as I can get some 30" touch screens I'll be hooking those bad boys up and seeing what they can do with Windows 8.

Blake
SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium Member
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX

SipSizzurp

Premium Member

said by Link Logger:

...As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8?

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?

darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium Member
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Ziply Fiber

darcilicious

Premium Member

said by SipSizzurp:

said by Link Logger:

...As for Microsoft forcing people to Metro, really? I don't think Microsoft is going to come over to my home and take away Windows 7, so what did they lose by not having a Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8?

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?

Well, geez, whatever you do, don't try to buy a copy of Windows 7 separate from the computer purchase, I mean, that'd be too easy.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger to SipSizzurp

MVM

to SipSizzurp
said by SipSizzurp:

What has that got to do with going to Wal-Mart to buy a new computer when your old machine croaks or is no longer powerful enough for some newer apps ? Will everybody make do with their old hardware until Windows 9 comes out ?

I don't think your going to find many Walmart computers running Windows 8 unless they have the suitable hardware interfaces, ie touch screens, in which case Windows 8 might be a welcomed OS. Or in other words I don't think you will find that every PC sold after Oct 26th will be running Windows 8.

Blake
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Why would a desktop user who runs concurrent apps all over their desktop switch from Windows 7 to Windows 8? They also wouldn't switch to an iPad for the same reason as its not how they use a their computer. So how exactly is Apple going to increase market share, by people switching from Windows 7 to a Mac, don't think that makes much sense.
Blake

Why would a desktop user with XP Pro who seldom looks at their desktop, (and if they do it is swept totally clean of anything except the wallpaper thanks to Desksweeper which I have been using since I got my first computer in the late 90's), switch to Windows 8? I may get stuck with Windows 8 because I need a new computer, but now is NOT the time to buy it turns out. I want more than 16GB RAM which means I have to wait for machines that can take it and for the RAM to be available also...Dell says "before Christmas" but not currently. The machine I want, currently has a serious, either hardware or BIOS, defect and Dell is still dithering around on fixing it ...going on over three months now (I gotta have working PCIe 1 ports).

Finding a good, fast multimedia desktop these days is very difficult unless you are an Enterprise customer wanting a Precision. Alienware...still stuck on Sandy Bridge processors and I don't really need a machine that expensive (Aurora) ...so, I keep waiting and soon only Windows 8 will be offered. I would be surprised to see OEMs offering downgrades to Windows 7.

darcilicious
Cyber Librarian
Premium Member
join:2001-01-02
Forest Grove, OR
·Ziply Fiber

darcilicious

Premium Member

said by Mele20:

and soon only Windows 8 will be offered.

No, you will still be able to purchase Windows 7 separately. Heck, I could buy a copy of Vista right now if I wanted.
SipSizzurp
Fo' Shizzle
Premium Member
join:2005-12-28
Houston, TX

SipSizzurp to Link Logger

Premium Member

to Link Logger
said by Link Logger:

Or in other words I don't think you will find that every PC sold after Oct 26th will be running Windows 8.

Thanks for the clarification. That possibility had not occurred to me.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20 to darcilicious

Premium Member

to darcilicious
said by darcilicious:

said by Mele20:

and soon only Windows 8 will be offered.

No, you will still be able to purchase Windows 7 separately. Heck, I could buy a copy of Vista right now if I wanted.

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.

Link Logger
MVM
join:2001-03-29
Calgary, AB

Link Logger

MVM

said by Mele20:

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.

Its not just Microsoft that want you to buy new OS's as Dell doesn't want to support old OS's either as it would cost them more then it would make. Every OS vendor have end of support dates for their products as do pretty much every manufacturer of anything.

Blake
I rather like my Alienware M18X laptop, I'm not a gamer, just a developer who likes fast hardware.
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

I don't know what you mean. Dell is not selling basic hardware warranty on the new XPS 8500. They will probably not be on the Alienware either when it is upgraded (currently it is stuck on last year's processors unless they upgraded it since I last checked about a week ago) and it still offers basic hardware warranty. Dell is now selling, on the XPS, ONLY Premium warranty (on the XPS 8300 they offered basic or Premium but no basic on the new 8500) which can be bought for up to 5 years. No India anymore thank goodness. North American 24/7, 365 days, next business day in home technician if needed.

The Premium extended hardware warranty INCLUDES support for software as well as mandatory purchase of the same number of years support for (if you have a desktop) irrelevant stuff like droppage, spillage, surge protection, etc. (Who drops a 30 pound desktop or pours liquid accidentally on it, or doesn't have it on a UPS, etc)? Obviously, if you buy 5 years Pro extended warranty and the machine comes with Windows 7 then Dell supports Windows 7 for 5 years because Pro support includes software.

I think Dell may soon offer just basic hardware extended warranty on the XPS 8500, as well as the Pro extended warranty, but basic warranty will be for India support which is a nightmare. I would like to see them offer extended warranty with North American support and NO software or spillage, droppage, etc coverage also required (and no software support...I just want the hardware extended warranty but no India). But I don't see that happening. The configurator forces you to buy the accidental damage coverage for the same number of years you are buying the hardware warranty which includes software support. It may be possible to get out of the accidental damage support by calling Dell which I will do before purchasing. It should not be forced on desktop buyers.

plencnerb
Premium Member
join:2000-09-25
53403-1242

plencnerb to Mele20

Premium Member

to Mele20
said by Mele20:

If I want hassles and warranty issues yeah...but no thanks. I am buying a Dell partly to get North American 24//7 Pro support for extended warranty of 5 years. It sort of defeats my purpose if I buy a different OS separately and need to have two hard drives bootable (with Windows 8 on one so I could switch to it if I had to call support). No thanks. The point here is to minimize hassles...not increase them. I just checked the Dell configurator and two of the problems are fixed (...last time I checked just a couple of days ago..the problems were still there). Dell is now offering Windows 7 Pro (had been offering Windows 7 Home only) and they have the 8GB sticks of Dual Channel DDR3 1600MHz RAM now so the configurator is now allowing one to purchase 12GB, 16GB, 24GB or 32GB RAM. No further information regarding a fix for the PCIe ports problem though.

Just a side note here, but maybe a useful suggestion.

You seem to know exactly what kind of hardware you want, so why not build the system yourself? If I was you, I would check out either newegg or tigerdirect, and build the system myself. Why wait for Dell (or any other OEM) to come out with the system you want. If you know what you want, go price the parts yourself, and get exactly what you want.

--Brian

Sparrow
Crystal Sky
Premium Member
join:2002-12-03
Sachakhand

2 recommendations

Sparrow to lorennerol

Premium Member

to lorennerol
Alwayas a way around things:

»[Free] [New] Start Button 8 - Start Menu X
Mele20
Premium Member
join:2001-06-05
Hilo, HI

Mele20

Premium Member

I think Classic Shell is better. I had it on Win 7 public beta when Classic Shell was brand new and loved it. It has evolved a great deal since then (but I was only able to use it during the public beta of Win 7 on a virtual machine). I still use XP Pro and hope to avoid Windows 8 but that will depend on when I can buy the machine I am waiting for Dell to fix and on how long OEMs are allowed to continue offering computers with Windows 7.

Classic Shell is officially supported as of August 18 for Windows 8 RTM.

It is such a shame that we have to resort to things like this just because we prefer desktops. Microsoft has lost it. There is no reason why Microsoft has to have a cell phone/tablet version of Windows forced on desktop users. Not only do I want the Start button but I want Classic Windows and buttons and it shocks me that Microsoft is trying to deny that to those of us who want it.

»classicshell.sourceforge.net/

chachazz
Premium Member
join:2003-12-14

chachazz

Premium Member

There are others too (untested), to name a couple..

ViStart

Start8
chachazz

chachazz

Premium Member

Skip Metro Suite ( boot to desktop )
»winaero.com/comment.php? ··· news.103