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Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
reply to clawfury

Re: [Cataclysm] Tired of the attitude

I've gotten to the point that when I'm carrying a PvPer in a PvE instance if they aren't pulling 10K DPS I'll vote kick. If it is a guild run, I'll drop, they can carry them. It isn't worth my time or effort to run with a fail group.

Where they stand on those fights isn't so important as the mobs being in the light. The running ahead and fighting in the dark are the things that get me. I also have issues with tanks that don't interupt that boss.

The only real solution is to find a guild to run with. I'm in a guild with my Alliance set and other than raids getting enough people on is a chore.

I feel your pain. I probably max out two or three toons a week. I run randoms all weekend and if I get two groups that have DPS all over 10K, tanks that know how to pull, and healers that can keep the above alive it is a good weekend. Too often it is a weak tank and healer with awesome DPS or two decent DPS and a PvPer. The number of tanks that know how to properly pull can be counted on one hand with fingers left over.
--
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Not afiliated or making any profit from sales

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
Yeah Kilroy, I know what you mean. I was keeping the mobs in the light, but it just makes it a lot more smooth when at least the healer stays in the light, and follows the tank. I was interrupting stardust on the boss fight. I'm not a spectacular tank by any means at this point, and I know it - I was a lot better when I was tanking raids every week. I'm curious what your definition of "know how to properly pull" is...?


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
said by clawfury:

I'm curious what your definition of "know how to properly pull" is...?

Knowing how to pull properly is prioritizing kills to minimize damage to the group as a whole. As a tank, you're a meat shield. Your job is to keep the mobs and bosses beating on you so they don't notice the DPS killing them.

For HoT, Asira Dawnslayer is the one that stands out. Incredibly easy to tank, but most make the fight much more difficult.

How to tank Asira Dawnslayer.

1. Engage.
2. When she throws smoke back up until she is sufficiently out of smoke.
3. Rinse and repeat, normally four times

How most tanks tank Asira Dawnslayer

1. Engage.
2. Run to totem to increase tank DPS. Got to try to get to the top of the meters.
3. Run in a random direction to maybe pull her out of the smoke. Never do the same direction twice, keep your DPS casters and healer guessing.
4. Rinse and repeat many times until finally killed (since casting DPS is minimal) or wipe because heals is constantly silenced.

I've seen my casting DPS cut 50% or more depending on how bad the tank is.

Some times it is the little things that count. Like the Dreadlord Defender pulls in Well of Eternity. If the tank turns them away from the group only the tank takes their AOE damage, this makes healers happy.

Granted I do some things that tick the DPS off, like going toe to toe with Manaroth and making them stack or bring me adds. This comes from doing more DPS as the tank then all three of my DPS supplied by LFG and having healers that can't seem to keep me up if I pull all the adds.
--
Want the shirt? - »www.despair.com/thedestructor.html
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clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
said by Kilroy:

said by clawfury:

I'm curious what your definition of "know how to properly pull" is...?

Knowing how to pull properly is prioritizing kills to minimize damage to the group as a whole. As a tank, you're a meat shield. Your job is to keep the mobs and bosses beating on you so they don't notice the DPS killing them.

For HoT, Asira Dawnslayer is the one that stands out. Incredibly easy to tank, but most make the fight much more difficult.

How to tank Asira Dawnslayer.

1. Engage.
2. When she throws smoke back up until she is sufficiently out of smoke.
3. Rinse and repeat, normally four times

How most tanks tank Asira Dawnslayer

1. Engage.
2. Run to totem to increase tank DPS. Got to try to get to the top of the meters.
3. Run in a random direction to maybe pull her out of the smoke. Never do the same direction twice, keep your DPS casters and healer guessing.
4. Rinse and repeat many times until finally killed (since casting DPS is minimal) or wipe because heals is constantly silenced.

I've seen my casting DPS cut 50% or more depending on how bad the tank is.

Some times it is the little things that count. Like the Dreadlord Defender pulls in Well of Eternity. If the tank turns them away from the group only the tank takes their AOE damage, this makes healers happy.

Granted I do some things that tick the DPS off, like going toe to toe with Manaroth and making them stack or bring me adds. This comes from doing more DPS as the tank then all three of my DPS supplied by LFG and having healers that can't seem to keep me up if I pull all the adds.

lol, okay, I got it. I guess I'm a pretty good tank then :P I quit marking because people just scoff and pay no attention, but I used to back in the day. Prided myself on knowing what to mark and how to use LoS for pulls. Unfortunately HoT is mostly retardation, no opportunity to use any of those old school skills. I tank Asira the way you describe, and still top the meters, which is sad.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
I still have Square, Skull, and X bound to Shift Q-W-E so I can quickly mark casters or high-damage mobs on the fly.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
I have a quick mark add, and I do it when something is particularly lethal, or on the Queen Azshara boss, I mark the first two kills which helps a little for the ADD crowd.


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
reply to Krisnatharok
The problem with marking is that the number of people who understand them is very low.

To them

Skull = Stay way very dangerous
X = Not this one
Square = This guy is not cool

I love when I mark and marked targets go down last. After a couple of those I start attacking single marked targets and let the idiots deal with their stupidity.
--
Want the shirt? - »www.despair.com/thedestructor.html
Not afiliated or making any profit from sales


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to clawfury
Exactly. Or Hand of the Queen, or the Void Sphere (or colored mob priority in general) on the second/third DS boss. It's still helpful since the average raider has a two-digit IQ.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
reply to Kilroy
It may vary per server or battlegroup, but on Mal'Ganis it's always kill order (Skull, X, Square although the last one is rarely seen). Purple or green means CC target.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


Bodybagger
Premium
join:2010-03-30
Saint Matthews, SC
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to Kilroy
If a caster gets silenced and can't pull dps or heal on this fight it's only 1 of 2 things.. A) People are being assholes and doing it on purpose, or B) The casters fail at LoS. Granted I run with guildies anymore to avoid the retards. Just play like you use to in vanilla. The hell with all the assholes.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
reply to Kilroy
I don't dps very often... but when I do... I hate it when I sneak ahead and CC a caster... only to have the tank pull the melee adds over to the CC'd caster, while his health bar just bleeds out... /sigh.

clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
lol. I'm guessing that the people who do these kind of things don't post on forums...oh wait...I bet they post on the official WoW forum. Talk about some poisonous a$$holes. That forum is a pit.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast

1 edit
reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

It may vary per server or battlegroup, but on Mal'Ganis it's always kill order (Skull, X, Square although the last one is rarely seen). Purple or green means CC target.

hmm... We do it a little differently
Kill order: Skull, X
CC: Circle=sap, Moon=sheep, triangle=hex, diamond=bind elemental, Squre=Icetrap
Stack on this guy: Star
--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN

1 recommendation

reply to Bodybagger
said by Bodybagger:

If a caster gets silenced and can't pull dps or heal on this fight it's only 1 of 2 things.

I disagree. DPS and Heals should be at tank's back. When tank takes off in some random direction they get silenced and continue to get silenced until they can get behind someone.

To demonstrate how bad this can be put a dot in the center of a piece of paper, that's the boss. Now put a dot right by it, that's the tank. Now put two dots and inch behind your tank dot. When the tank moves to the other side of the boss they have a very short distance to move. For the casters to line back behind the tank they now have to run to the other side of the page. Now have the tank do that not only when boss throws smoke but also when Thrall throws down a totem and you've got your casters silenced for most of the fight.
--
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clawfury

join:2012-02-14
Rochester, MI
Gotta agree with Kilroy here. What I typically do is run to the boss, and tell the group I'm going to back up in a straight line. I then back up just out of the cloud every time, and if I do it right, the totem ends up right on top of me. I do this a max of 3-4 times if the dps is good, and the healer never gets silenced.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by clawfury:

Gotta agree with Kilroy here. What I typically do is run to the boss, and tell the group I'm going to back up in a straight line. I then back up just out of the cloud every time, and if I do it right, the totem ends up right on top of me. I do this a max of 3-4 times if the dps is good, and the healer never gets silenced.

exactly what I do. I put a star on the healer, and tell them to back up at max-range up the road we just came down. I strafe-run to the healer (muuuuch faster than backing up and takes less damage than turning around and running). Very little downtime due to moving. If caster/ranged are stacked on the healer, thrall's totem usually gets dropped on them... so I can back up a couple of steps and now everyone is in the totem. easy-peasy.
--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


s1deout
Geek4Life
Premium
join:2003-12-10
Troy, OH
kudos:2
The problem here is most tanks in your LFD's have no clue what strafe-run is or how to do it or even what it is for.

I remember when Uldar came out and I was applying for a new guild as a tank. I had to take and pass a tanking test. This is what I had to do:

1. 4 raiders including the raid leader took me into Halls of Lighting Dungeon.
2. I had to be in vent with them explaining different boss fights while we were doing the dungeon.
3. I had to make a macro to throw the leather ball back within 5 seconds of it being thrown to me.
4. I was on my pally at the time and I was not allowed to use Righteous Defense and had to tank without it and keep aggro.

I was graded by how well i kept threat , progressed thru the instance and how i explained the boss fights over vent while this all was going on.

The party consisted of a lock , mage , rogue and priest healer. It was nerve wracking and totally blew my mind.

But in the end I passed and was added to the ranks and got to learn some stuff from a really good raid tank. I try and pass that stuff onto people who want to learn to tank that I come across.


Bodybagger
Premium
join:2010-03-30
Saint Matthews, SC
Reviews:
·Windstream
reply to Kilroy
If a guildie isn't on to heal and we end up running this instance and have a pug healer, we usually have zero problems. I'm not saying that I do not tank the boss the way you mentioned (as this IS the strat to the boss). You cannot fix stupid and whiny ass babies that moan and groan about being silenced and/or dead and blame a tank that is doing the correct strat. Countless times when I use to run LFD I would always see a boomer or a healer sitting out in the open, usually going panic mode to sit in the totem, and end up not pulling any dps b/c I didn't LoS FOR him/her. Ef that... it's only going to bring your normal 10k up to about 13k anyway. Hence why I no longer do LFD without friends/guildies.


Caelharrad

join:2012-04-13
Fenton, MO
reply to Immer
said by Immer:

hmm... We do it a little differently
Kill order: Skull, X
CC: Circle=sap, Moon=sheep, triangle=hex, diamond=bind elemental
Stack on this guy: Star

This is pretty close to what I'm used to for target marking. Add in "blue square = hunter, please put a freezing trap on this guy" (blue square looks like a block of ice). Of course, there's a decent chance that I freeze the guy, then a rogue immediately jumps in to DPS him, or a mage starts casting AoE nukes... so much for "cc breaks on damage"... sigh.
...
The kinds of personalities you see in LFD/LFR vary greatly. I've had some pretty awesome experiences - there was one run through Blackrock Caverns where we had one DPS who didn't know any of the encounters (and was quite low on meters...), but we had an awesome tank who insisted on giving the guy a chance to learn. We did a brief rundown of the strat for each boss, then went in and gave it a try. Think we may have wiped a couple of times, but we finished the instance. As the tank said, "everyone has to be new at some point". (Yes, yes, I know. Icy Veins, Tankspot, Youtube, dungeon journal, et cetera. I use them, but not everyone does.)
...
I've also had some runs through LFR where I wanted to uninstall the game afterwards, then rinse my laptop in bleach afterwards to get rid of the stink.


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
I can't believe I forgot the Square=hunter. oh yeah... I usually just ask my wife, "hey hun... can you trap that one?"


stvnbrs
Premium
join:2009-03-17
Cary, NC
kudos:5

1 edit

1 recommendation

reply to Immer

Immerism
said by Immer:

I don't dps very often... but when I do... I hate it when I sneak ahead and CC a caster... only to have the tank pull the melee adds over to the CC'd caster, while his health bar just bleeds out... /sigh.

sorry, couldn't help myself.

edit for reference


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8

2 recommendations

My name is Immer... and I approve this message.


Ramikor

@comcast.net
reply to Krisnatharok
OK, this one got to me: I zone into a dun on my 84 holy priest, buff up, ready to go. DK pulls first set of mobs and wtf, there's aggro everywhere? One mob has fixed itself to me, but I'm healing though it. The other four mobs go down AND THE DK GOES RUNNING TO THE NEXT PACK WHILE THE FINAL MOB AT NEARLY FULL HEALTH IS STILL BANGING ON ME! The dps kill the last mob and we go running to catch up with the tank, and I notice there's no bone shield running. I say "DK, where's your bone shield?" and no response -- he just keeps pulling mobs. I inspect and HE'S IN FROST in raid level (390+) dps gear!

I say DK, why aren't you in blood? and he says "Shut up and do your job." I immediately stop heals and take the wipe (which takes about 5 seconds because he has zero mitigation) and he starts laying into me.

By now I've had enough of him, and tell the group "I'm outta here" and leave the dungeon. The DK then says "get back here or we're kicking you in 2 minutes." Yeah, like that's a threat. I tell him, you might as well kick me now because I'm not coming back, but not quite that politely.

Just venting, but yeah, sometimes they do get to you.

Funny, though, I put up with less of this kind of stuff when I'm on my healer.


Krisnatharok
Caveat Emptor
Premium
join:2009-02-11
Earth Orbit
kudos:12
said by Ramikor :

OK, this one got to me: I zone into a dun on my 84 holy priest, buff up, ready to go. DK pulls first set of mobs and wtf, there's aggro everywhere? One mob has fixed itself to me, but I'm healing though it. The other four mobs go down AND THE DK GOES RUNNING TO THE NEXT PACK WHILE THE FINAL MOB AT NEARLY FULL HEALTH IS STILL BANGING ON ME! The dps kill the last mob and we go running to catch up with the tank, and I notice there's no bone shield running. I say "DK, where's your bone shield?" and no response -- he just keeps pulling mobs. I inspect and HE'S IN FROST in raid level (390+) dps gear!

I say DK, why aren't you in blood? and he says "Shut up and do your job." I immediately stop heals and take the wipe (which takes about 5 seconds because he has zero mitigation) and he starts laying into me.

By now I've had enough of him, and tell the group "I'm outta here" and leave the dungeon. The DK then says "get back here or we're kicking you in 2 minutes." Yeah, like that's a threat. I tell him, you might as well kick me now because I'm not coming back, but not quite that politely.

Just venting, but yeah, sometimes they do get to you.

Funny, though, I put up with less of this kind of stuff when I'm on my healer.

I feel you. I'm a pretty vindictive healer as well when a PUG tries to pull shit like tanking in PVP gear or high-level-raid DPS gear.
--
If we lose this freedom of ours, history will record with the greatest astonishment, those who had the most to lose, did the least to prevent its happening.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
reply to Kilroy
You know how many times I've seen tanks do the 1st boss of WoE wrong?

The right way
1. pull
2. stay near the middle so dps and heals can kill it and heal you.
3. when he disappears tank stays in the middle, DPS heals hide behind pillars
4. when the eyes lock on to the tank heals/dps come out and engage boss

the way I've seen the last few times
1. pull
2. kite all over the place making ranged and heals have trouble
3. when he disappears tank hides too
4. Eyes find a DPS or a heal and boss appears on them and likely kills them.
5. (#4 a dps likely died) so tank repeated #1 (if a heal died, then Tank complains)

Is it so hard, really?


Immer
Gentleman
Premium
join:2010-01-07
Evans, GA
kudos:8
Reviews:
·Comcast
said by DarkLogix:

You know how many times I've seen tanks do the 1st boss of WoE wrong?

The right way
1. pull
2. stay near the middle so dps and heals can kill it and heal you.
2a. Pay attention to who is getting fel flames cast on them... if ranged, don't move... if melee, move... don't wait for the flames to appear.
2b. Kite in as tight a circle as possible. melee dps need access to his back that doesn't require standing in bad stuff

3. when he disappears tank stays in the middle, DPS heals hide behind pillars
3a. Healer tops tank off first, then dps
3b. Tank pops a 3min or 5 min CD before running into an eyeball

4. when the eyes lock on to the tank heals/dps come out and engage boss

--
Immergruen (resto/boomie) on Nathrezim Server (US)
Guild leader for Pride and Ego

Intelligence is no substitute for Character.


DarkLogix
Texan and Proud
Premium
join:2008-10-23
Baytown, TX
kudos:3
said by Immer:

said by DarkLogix:

You know how many times I've seen tanks do the 1st boss of WoE wrong?

The right way
1. pull
2. stay near the middle so dps and heals can kill it and heal you.
2a. Pay attention to who is getting fel flames cast on them... if ranged, don't move... if melee, move... don't wait for the flames to appear.
2b. Kite in as tight a circle as possible. melee dps need access to his back that doesn't require standing in bad stuff

3. when he disappears tank stays in the middle, DPS heals hide behind pillars
3a. Healer tops tank off first, then dps
3b. Tank pops a 3min or 5 min CD before running into an eyeball

4. when the eyes lock on to the tank heals/dps come out and engage boss

Ya
So long as the tank doesn't do something bad DPS don't need hardly any heals on that fight

DBM says run you run, then you don't get hit by fel flames.

If I were to have a full guild group for that run I'd make one of the pillars and that'd be the one to hide behind
then the healer can heal DPS while hiding


Ramikor

@ultzindustries.com
reply to Krisnatharok
said by Krisnatharok:

I'm a pretty vindictive healer as well when a PUG tries to pull shit like tanking in PVP gear or high-level-raid DPS gear.

I am fine with it if the tank is in the 377 crafted vicious gear because I figure he's a brand new 85; not so much if he's in PvP or dps epics, which suggests he's just slumming tank to get a faster queue. I just dinged 85 this weekend, and I geared crafted PvP myself to bypass the troll duns and go straight to HoTs. I have the luxury of asking partial heroic geared guildies to run HoTs with me until I'm ready to run LFR; but I know there are a lot of guildless who don't have that luxury.


Kilroy
Premium,MVM
join:2002-11-21
Saint Paul, MN
said by Ramikor :

I just dinged 85 this weekend, and I geared crafted PvP myself to bypass the troll duns and go straight to HoTs.

I understand this completely. Seems there are very few people out there that know the Troll dungeons. My complaint isn't the gear so much as the performance. I don't gear check everyone before we start. If I'm looking at your gear it is because of a performance issue. If you're not over 10K, 15K on Well of Eternity, on the DPS meters then you get a gear check. If heals is having a hard time keeping a iLvl 393 tank up they get a gear check.

I'm willing to assist those that are trying, but people like the mage who die on every boss and can't find Time Warp in their spell book I don't have time for.
--
Want the shirt? - »www.despair.com/thedestructor.html
Not afiliated or making any profit from sales


Ramikor

@ultzindustries.com
said by Kilroy:

said by Ramikor :

I just dinged 85 this weekend, and I geared crafted PvP myself to bypass the troll duns and go straight to HoTs.

I understand this completely. Seems there are very few people out there that know the Troll dungeons. My complaint isn't the gear so much as the performance. I don't gear check everyone before we start. If I'm looking at your gear it is because of a performance issue. If you're not over 10K, 15K on Well of Eternity, on the DPS meters then you get a gear check. If heals is having a hard time keeping a iLvl 393 tank up they get a gear check.

I'm willing to assist those that are trying, but people like the mage who die on every boss and can't find Time Warp in their spell book I don't have time for.

Actually, I bypass the troll duns because the gear is already obsolete. Why bother getting 353s when I can jump straight to HoTs and get 378s?

Also, I never gearcheck unless there's an obvious problem (e.g. the supposed DK tank). I'm perfectly happy to heal a bad player, especially if they're coachable. E.g. the tank listens when you tell him (after a wipe in the room of endless mobs, whatever dun that is) to pull the mob group down the tunnel so the scouts don't come in and call for reinforcements.

Actually, surviving the room of endless mobs when the tank didn't pull the target mob group somewhere safe, and the dps let the scouts get away, and holy crap we have 4 mob groups and two bruisers I'm oom blow my shadow beast I'm oom again please nobody die while I'm channeling for mana oh no I only have enough mana for one last renew desperate gift of the Naaru on the tank HOLY HOT DAMN WE'RE ALIVE! is kinda sorta fun even. Doesn't usually work out that way, and I don't go looking for it, but WOW when it does.

But I'm never happy to heal anyone who thinks the healer is my personal HP reserve fall down and worship me because I convinced some desperate pug raid to carry me through a few bosses and now I'm slumming normals because I outgear everyone by 80 or 90 ilevels so they should realize i'm so cool and badass.

That's just me.